Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
We either believe something because of what the Scriptures say; or else the Scriptures say something because we believe it.
Annalex is supposedly writing a book about Mary. Maybe we will learn all about the wilderness adventures of Mary. I am seeing a profound depth of knowledge from this soon-to-be-author. I fear it won't be on the NYTimes best seller list anytime soon.
Many thanks. I wish that I had met you before I left Indiana.
A context is necessary in any case. The Holy Spirit will furnish the proper one, but even then patience is needed as indwelling sin may prevent proper understanding of part of it, or it may just not be God’s time to reveal it.
Come back Shane!
(We need your tax money!)
OK, where on FR have you encountered this?
I see claiming a lack of perspicuity is a recourse of RCA's, while being able to derive meanings from obscure texts of Scripture in order to support Rome.
I agree that veneration of saints fully developed when the heaven became filled with saints, that is at the age of martyrs, -- roughly 2nd century, out of the historical scope of the scripture. The argument here is about the necessary elements of veneration of saints in the Holy Scripture.
TRCs are upset with evangelical veneration of Paul, but the issue is that of RC veneration of saints with its inclusion of prayer to them. These are ultimately inseparable regardless of attempts to deal with them as separate issues.
As for trying to explain the absence of actual support in Scripture for this based upon the lack of subjects in Heaven to pray to, that will not do, as prayer to angels is part of the same doctrine as PTDS, and there were plenty to pray to in OT times as well.
In addition, there were plenty of deceased believers by the time Revelation was written, but not one examples of prayer to any one of them, Stephen and the apostle James included.
I do understand that this absence, as well as in teaching which involves who to pray to, is not a problem for RCs as their real source of assurance of doctrine is Rome herself who channels oral tradition into doctrine. But it seems that in condescension to evangelical types you are trying to show support from Scripture. However, this is counterproductive due to the desperate measures this has been shown to require.
And what did foster PTDS in Heaven is not Scripture exampling or teaching it, but external influence did have a part, as the CE affirms:
A further reinforcement, of the same idea, was derived from the cult of the angels, which, while pre-Christian in its origin, was heartily embraced by the faithful of the sub-Apostolic age. It seems to have been only as a sequel of some such development that men turned to implore the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. — http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15459a.htm
εγω ηλθον ινα ζωην εχωσιν και περισσον εχωσιν (John 10:10) Literally, "I come so that life have and more have", so the afterlife is "more". Deal with it.
Indeed i did deal with it, and your new rendering still does not teach that this abundant life ("more abundantly" is one word meaning abundant, exceeding) is "not yet given them," much less that it refers to acting as heavenly secretaries! Your conclusion simply does not follow. Give it up.
that they are presently dead is a minority position usually held by cults.
Indeed. Thank you. That is the objection I hear most often from Protestant cultists. May they ever come to the liberty of the True Church.
Indeed, and may far more Catholics become part of the body of Christ.
being like something does not necessarily equate to having all their abilities
Well, no, not necessarily, but for the comparison to be even possible the faculties of an angel have to somehow match the faculties of a saint. Also see the "περισσον" above and the ability of a saint to judge the angels.
Extreme extrapolation. There is simply nothing in the meaning of perissos (abundant) that makes this simply refer to the next life, and there is nothing in the words or context about this that even speaks of being able to judge angels, much less being a heavenly object of prayer. Having life abundantly includes the afterlife,and the elect will judge angels, but the Holy Spirit also much details the "so great salvation" and abundant life for believers now, yet shows nothing of them being prayed to in heaven by saints on earth, or the need for a heavenly intercessor btwn God and man for man to mentally pray to, except for Christ.
The saints shall receive their glorified bodies after the resurrection; it is not clear how possession of a body restricts the saint's intellectual ability now.
Regardless, this does not make them heavenly objects of prayers.
The Holy Scripture calls them "prayers", not "memorial". I prefer to believe the Holy Scripture rather than you.
You have evidenced you prefer neither, as RCs must prefer what Rome holds irregardless of anything to the contrary, and must compel Scripture to support it. Rev. 8:3,4 does not teach angels were delivering prayers as if thru proper channels were necessary, much less being prayed to, nor that this was a regular practice, but that before the trumpet judgments an angel was given a golden censer and much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar. The prayers were given Him from God, the source of every good gift, while the memorial aspect refers to why the prayers are offered, not as if they needed a porter.
It does describe the ability to "see clearly", so yes, given that a saint does not need vision to drive to work and back, I'd say, it has to do with the ability of saints to comprehend our affairs and therefore comprehend prayers when addressed to them. See also Hebrews 12:1.
Heb. 12:1 flows from Heb. 11 and the hall of faith, and thus states we are surrounded by a great a cloud of witnesses, as indeed they are in glory. (Heb. 12:23) but this does not support praying to them regardless of what vision Rome constrains, and instead the very next verse exhorts, "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:2) He is the one in Heaven the saints are to look to, and the only one therein whom the Holy Spirit says makes intercession for the saints (besides the Spirit Himself).
As for 1 Corinthians 13:12, that refers to superior perception of Divine things, but still does not teach that saints above hear prayers addressed to them, much less that the Scriptures teach we should make prayers to them (which is the real issue) even if they can (and they may), regardless of what RCs force out of this verse.
Such are desperate attempts in the light of absolutely zero examples of anyone in Heaven being prayed to by believers except the Lord, and the teaching on prayer which places the believer in Christ in the holy of holies therewith to meet directly with God. And arguments from silence, as in speculating what saints might be able to do, does not a doctrine make.
On almost any subject there would be a variety of opinions expressed by the fathers. I would be happy to discuss any particular patristic work with you and see how close to the consensus patrum I am and your sample would be.
Which presume i hold them as deterministic of doctrine, which i stated they were not, and Rome herself judges them more than they judge her. My remarks relate to your invocation of them for support, and not interpreting Scripture except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers.
And unlike the church, it is wholly inspired of God, and formally sufficient in that a person may read it and be saved and grow in grace, and is materially sufficient in providing for reason, natural revelation, the church and its magisterium, etc. which is needed for the perfection of the saints.
While formal sufficiency aspect is limited and refers to a complete canon, yet before its completion Scripture also evidences recognition of both men and additional writings as being of God due to their Divine qualities and attestation (not due to an infallible decree from Rome), and thus accordingly it provides for recognition of a canon in the light of the recognition of a lack of writings from God.
You know that the New Testament was not completely written at the time of Paul’s letter, right? Using your standard, Paul would have had to reject Revelation, for example.
And this doesn’t even address the problem of canonicity, which Protestants seem to be completely unaware of.
Assuming that the Protestant Canon is correct, is different from proving that it’s correct.
Then there’s the problem of the Bible not being canonized for centuries after Pentecost. What was the sole rule of faith then?
Protestant pastors don’t address these questions because they’re impossible for.Protestantism to answer.
We've got a fiscal conservative here (Branstad). I kinda like him.
Rv. 12 is referring to Israel, but as Scripture is not your supreme basis for authority, i would like to ask if in your opinion is your interpretation that Mary is depicted as queen in heaven in Rev. 12 something RCs can disagree with? Does this or another view have the most ancient support?
My brief question was to highlight the fact that the Holy Scripture does not generally tell us who to call what.
It actually generally does as regards names and titles of significant people, with even their names signifying something and often their relationships. And its careful attribution and use of honorific titles (such as Abraham the friend of God, Moses the man of God, Jesus the Son of God, King of kings and Lord of lords, etc.), is to be observed, lest we think of men above that which is written, which admonishment Catholicism, with its 900+ titles etc. given to Mary, has not observed, nor with its multitude of clerical titles and ostentatious clothing.
Per usual, the emphasis is on Mary as the provider, regardless of the fact that all Mary has came by the Son of God.
And therein is the difference, as RCs do preach their church as "home," while those who have found their dwelling place to be Christ give this call to those who went astray:
Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling,
Calling for you and for me;
See, on the portals he's waiting and watching,
Watching for you and for me.
Come home, come home,
Ye who are weary, come home;
Earnestly, tenderly Jesus is calling,
Calling, O sinner, come home.
Why should we tarry when Jesus is pleading,
Pleading for you and for me?
Why should we linger and heed not his mercies,
Mercies for you and for me?
Time is now fleeting, the moments are passing,
Passing from you and from me;
Shadows are gathering, deathbeds are coming,
Coming for you and for me.
Oh! for the wonderful love he has promised
Promised for you and for me;
Though we have sinned, he has mercy and pardon,
Pardon for you and for me. - http://www.opc.org/hymn.html?hymn_num=694
Blessed be the name of the Lord.
OK. Prove that the Catholic canon is correct.
And besides, what's in the *Protestant* canon that is not in the Catholic canon?
The "figure" who has given birth (not "produced") Jesus Christ is His mother, no?
It is true that Mary is a personification of the Catholic Church, not true that the Church "produced" Christ, -- it is the other way around.
Because there is all the difference in the world from what God says is a blessing, as in having a child, and what the Catholic does in their "veneration" of Mary. There is no "veneration" of Mary in the bible. When He says "more blessed" He redirects that person from saying Mary is blessed to the fact that any Christian is more blessed for simple faith than Mary is for being the "Mother of God". This is like when He said John is the greatest of women born of men but any Christian is better than him.
It's all about Jesus and what we have in Him.
Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience — among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved — and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Why is it becoming surprising in this particular case? Mary is often called by her relation to Christ and to Eve: "His mother", or "the woman". Same in this case.
What's 'MARY' doing out in the wildeness?
Being a nun.
Yo! GC, here’s another one for your homepage.
To your earlier post: We are not saved by faith alone, so not every believer ends up in heaven. A saint is one who merited heaven; a canonized saint was recognized by the Holy Church to also be worthy of public veneration.
Thank you.
Poor Joseph, eh?
Mary getting married without any intention of being a wife to him after the angel commanded him to take Mary AS HIS WIFE.
That’s grounds for annulment in Catholicism.
What rank hypocrisy.
there were plenty to pray to in OT times
To what end? Sanctification was not available on the regular basis prior to the Church age.
Your conclusion simply does not follow
For people familiar with the concept of eternal life after death being like a treasure in heaven, which St. Paul longed for, it does. for someone with a tin ear for the Holy Scripture, -- I don't know.
Having life abundantly includes the afterlife,and the elect will judge angels, but the Holy Spirit also much details the "so great salvation" and abundant life for believers now
I never denied that; however, see above.
The prayers were given Him from God
They are "prayers of the saints" so they were prayed by the saints. You are ignoring plain scripture, and repeatedly.
this does not support praying to them
At a minimum, it shows that saints are cognizant of our affairs, and so it becomes reasonable to also pray for they witness to Christ.
Poor Joseph, eh?
Mary getting married without any intention of being a wife to him after the angel commanded him to take Mary AS HIS WIFE.
That’s grounds for annulment in Catholicism.
What rank hypocrisy.
Trying to talk to someone who does not understand the Scriptural definition of *saint* as Catholics don’t, isn’t going to be productive.
We know that in the NT *saint* = believer.
EVERY believer is a saint. They become one as soon as they put their trust in Christ and are born again.
Who cares; as long as we veer off in a different direction without solving the last thing...
You know that the RCC was not created at the time of Matthew's gospel; right?
Oh?I thought it was because they are irrelevant.
BINGO!!!
We have a winner!
YOU actually posted THIS??
So what we have here is the Catholic church giving its stamp of approval to a clear violation of the Scripture it claims it wrote, condoning and encouraging sin in the life of the Catholic.
James 2:1-13 My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. 2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” 4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
The Catholic church is not only teaching but encouraging its members to be respecters of persons.
He doesn't. Read the Bible every once in a while with attention and you, too, will be Catholic like me and understand the Holy Scripture.
Thank you. All who argued that saints in heaven do not have abundant life that exceeds ours in every sense should read this passage and reflect on it.
Not replying to anyone in particular. I haven’t been on FR in quite a while. It amazes me that this discussion is still/always going on.
Simply...as high as you want to put Mary up on the temple, she will never be higher then Jesus. So any focus on her, is simply focus away from HIM.
You just CAN'T make this stuff UP! ;^)
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
"But what about you?" he asked.
"Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
You must have a faulty translation; for EVERYone knows that MARY, Queen of Heaven; was born of a woman; and she is SURELY greater that JtB!!!
--CAtholic_wanna_be(I trust the Magisterium for MY faith!)
If listening to a bunch of prayers 24/7/365 is all SAINTS in Heaven get to do; then who - in their right mind - would want a job like that?
Your break is SURELY over by now; as it's been almost 12 years...
Glad to have you on board.
I hope you can be with us a bit more often.
LOVED your testimony!
Nobody argued that saints in heaven don’t have abundant life.
All saints, those here on earth, too, have abundant life in Christ.
If that's an example of the abundant life Catholics can look forward to......
I'll take the rest for my soul that Jesus promised.
To what end? Sanctification was not available on the regular basis prior to the Church age.
A vain argument. Sanctification was needed, and sought and to varying degrees obtained by men prior to the Church age, as seen by men such as Daniel, Job and Noah, David, Zechariah, etc., with the quest for such abundantly evidenced in the Psalms.
"In the day when I cried thou answeredst me, and strengthenedst me with strength in my soul. " (Psalms 138:3)
In addition, as examples of many Catholic prayers attests, PTDS is not simply for sanctification, but protection and help in temporal matters, etc. The very fact that sanctification and supernatural help was sought and obtained to varying degrees would makes prayer to angels a fitting and recorded among the approx. 100 prayers in Scripture, but there is none, and instead prayer is made directly to God.
"My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him. He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved..."Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah. " (Psalms 62:5-6,8)
Your conclusion simply does not follow
For people familiar with the concept of eternal life after death being like a treasure in heaven, which St. Paul longed for, it does. for someone with a tin ear for the Holy Scripture, -- I don't know.
A tin ear?! Rather it is an ear to hear what Scripture says versus Roman reading into it that which they desire it to mean!
Having life abundantly includes the afterlife,and the elect will judge angels, but the Holy Spirit also much details the "so great salvation" and abundant life for believers now
I never denied that;
Thank you for the clarification, and sorry for any misunderstanding. As you specifically used the word saints - not believers - which according to Rome (not Scripture) are only those believers in Heaven, and abundantly life as relating to the afterlife, thus it appears this is what the "abundant" aspect referred to. In any case, there is simply no evidence of them being prayed to, or even hearing and answering prayers addressed to them.
They are "prayers of the saints" so they were prayed by the saints. You are ignoring plain scripture, and repeatedly.
The angels was given the prayers as an offering to be made at the time of the trumpet judgments, not as a regular postal service that delivers prayers, which is what this text is used to support, and for praying to them and by extension, to saints.
Instead, what is taught is that believers have boldness to enter into the very holy of holies by the blood of Jesus, therewith to meet directly with God. (Heb. 10:19) You are ignoring what Scripture plainly states, and reading into it that which is not there due to a lack of any actual support for PTDS, and treat Scripture as something you can manipulate to serve Rome, and repeatedly so.
this does not support praying to them
At a minimum, it shows that saints are cognizant of our affairs, and so it becomes reasonable to also pray for they witness to Christ.
More is required for PTDS than saints simply being cognizant of our affairs, and nothing shows this except your eagerness to see Scripture as showing what it does not state, but at best may only allow for that, which still does not support praying to them.
The closest you can come to saints being cognizant of our affairs is Rv. 6:10, but which simply shows a query and cry for justice. I have no doubt they know the end is near due to the increased population in Heaven, and activity therein, but this is not the same thing as hearing and responding to prayers, much less advocating praying to them, rather than directly to the Lord, after the manner of every prayer to Heaven in Scripture and the doctrine of it.
In review:
1. In its multitudes of prayers, does Scripture provide even one prayer by believers praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord? ? No!
2. Does Scripture provide any kind of supplication being made to anyone in Heaven but the Lord? Yes. By pagans! (Jer. 44)
3. Does Scripture teach us to pray to or call upon anyone in Heaven but the Lord? No.
"But thou, when thou prayest,...pray to thy Father..." "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. (Matthew 6:6,9)
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. " (Romans 10:13)
4. Is there any need for an Heavenly intercessor btwn God and man save for Christ? No, believers have direct access to God in the holy of holies.
5. Is there any insufficiency in Christ, from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him, that would warrant praying to others in Heaven? No; Christ is uniquely and supremely able as the believer compassionate high priest, accessibly to all by faith.
6. Was any interaction btwn believers from Heaven and those on earth that of mental prayer to them, or a personal visitation? The latter.
7. Does Scripture actually show that the departed are given the Divine attribute close to omniscience, so they can hear and process an infinite amount of prayer? No; only the Lord is shown being able to do so.
I could go one but for time constraints. No other basic necessary practice has zero positive examples and such a lack of substantiation, and contrary to what is taught on who the direct object of prayer to Heaven is, and access thereto.
Not in the false elitist church which exalts itself, but to be in Christ is to be in the body of Christ, the one true church, as it only contains true believers, not its various (as seen in Rv. 2,3) visible manifestations, which contains an admixture of both.
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. " (1 Corinthians 12:13)
That is the one body which Rome seeks to foist herself upon as supreme, but will result in being debased.
"And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God " (Romans 8:27) - while the rest of believers are on their own.
"Distributing to the necessity of saints" (Romans 12:13) - but you can ignore the the rest of believers.
"Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints " (Ephesians 6:18) - but you can ignore the the rest of believers.
2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God that is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:
Ephesians 1:1-2 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:1-2 Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:1-2 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.
Acts 9:32 Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.
Acts 26:10 And I (Paul) did so in Jerusalem. I not only locked up many of the saints in prison after receiving authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to death I cast my vote against them.
Mary was in the wilderness?
I though she packed her bags and moved to modern day Turkey, near Ephesus. I’ve been there. I have pictures. I’ll repost them later.
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