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Interview with former Catholic Priests and Nuns on why they left
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIt43tFTmLc ^ | Larry Wessels

Posted on 08/31/2013 3:38:44 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans

Full interview (roughly one hour) with former Roman Catholic priests Richard Bennett (website: http://www.BEREANBEACON.ORG) & Bartholomew Brewer, Ph.D, author of "Pilgrimage from Rome - A Testimony" (website: http://www.MTC.COM) and former nun Rocio Zwirner give glory to God for their exodus from the Roman Catholic Church & into the glorious grace of the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ. (Description from youtube)


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: agendadrivenfreeper; rcvsevang; romandamagecontrol; sourcetitlenoturl
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1 posted on 08/31/2013 3:38:44 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Bart Brewer. Now there was a piece work. He was a terrible liar. One of the most embarrassing things he ever did was debate Karl Keating and he couldn’t resist making a complete horse’s rump out of himself. He violated the stated and duly agreed to rules of the debate and generally came across as a jerk. Many of his fellow Protestants were terribly embarrassed by his behavior.

It’s a shame he decided to take an interest in Filipino high school girls:

I enjoyed watching the girls giggle as they flirted with teasing boys. After a while, though, my attention was drawn to one of the more diligent students, who thoroughly captivated my interest . . . She was lovely and shyly responded as we stole moments talking alone after class. This was a new adventure, and I soon interpreted our newly discovered affection as love.

(Far From Rome, Near to God, compiled by Richard Bennett and Martin Buckingham, Lafayette, Indiana: Associated Publishers & Authors, Inc., 1994, 31-32)

What’s the legal consent age in the Philippines? I wonder if he was a statutory rapist?


2 posted on 08/31/2013 3:50:18 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Here’s the Keating vs Brewer debate audio: http://www.philvaz.com/KeatingBrewerDebate.mp3


3 posted on 08/31/2013 3:52:47 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Oh boy, here we go


4 posted on 08/31/2013 3:54:11 PM PDT by Rome2000 (THE WASHINGTONIANS AND UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE ARE THE ENEMY -ROTATE THE CAPITAL AMONGST THE STATES)
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To: vladimir998

Bookmark for later reading. Because this cannot be true...


5 posted on 08/31/2013 3:54:24 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice

Really? I’ll send you a private email with a link to a website we are not allowed to use here at FR. It is a thoroughly anti-Catholic website and has the relevant text which I posted about (although I cut and pasted it from yet another website).


6 posted on 08/31/2013 3:56:59 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

It’s certainly interesting to compare the quality of the men who leave Rome, and those who come home ;-)


7 posted on 08/31/2013 4:00:34 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Yeah, it is. Many of them leave because they can’t keep their pants on. Then when they leave they discover all they really knew was how to run a church so they become Protestant preachers and even sometimes become stridently anti-Catholic to become well known and make money.

Charles Chinquay was the perfect example, but there are plenty of others out there. It’s interesting to me how former Protestant ministers usually have nothing bad to say about their former sects. They became Catholic because the Catholic faith is true. Protestant anti-Catholicism is filled with liars and frauds. It’s just like John Henry Newman said: Protestants have to lie.


8 posted on 08/31/2013 4:07:15 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
Well, if it makes you feel any better, here is your Pope getting it on with a Koran.
9 posted on 08/31/2013 4:07:29 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: vladimir998

“What’s the legal consent age in the Philippines? I wonder if he was a statutory rapist?”


A pretty pathetic attempt at branding an opponent to your religion as a pedophile.

Here’s the context from the book:

“It was no wonder that as I approached high school age, I felt called to prepare for the Roman Catholic priesthood. Rather than the secular priesthood, which serves parishes, I chose to apply to the Discalced Carmelites, one of the more strict and ancient monastic orders.

From the first day at Holy Hill, Wisconsin, I loved the religious life, and this love was the motivation I needed to get through all the Latin and other studies, which I found very difficult. The dedication and self-sacrifice of the priests who taught our classes was a continual reminder of the value of making any sacrifice to reach the goal of ordination.The training I received in four years of the high school seminary, two years in the novitiate, three years of philosophy, and four years of theology (the last after ordination) was thorough. I was sincere in praciticing the various mortifications and other disciplines and never once doubted my calling nor anything I was taught. Taking the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience represented my lifetime commitment to God. For me the voice of the church was the voice of God.

My ordination to the Roman Catholic priesthood was at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary in Washington, DC, the seventh largest church in the world today. When “His Excellency, the Most Reverend Bishop” John M. McNamara imposed his hands on my head and repeated the words from Psalm 110:4 ..... “Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek:”, I was overwhelmed with the belief that I was now a mediator between God and the people.

The anointing and binding of my hands with special cloths signified that they were now consecrated to changing bread and wine into the real (literal) flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, to perpetuate the sacrifice of Calvary through the Mass, and to dispense saving grace through the other Roman Catholic sacraments of baptism, confession, confirmation, marriage, and the last rites. At ordination a Roman Catholic priest is said to receive an “indelible” mark: to experience an unending interchange of his personality with that of Christ, that he may perform his priestly duties as another Christ” (alter Christus) or in the place of Christ. People actually knelt and kissed our newly consecrated hands, so sincere was this belief. After completing the last year of theology, which was principally a final preparation for preaching and hearing confession (which involved giving absolution or forgiveness of sin), I was granted my long expressed desire to be a missionary priest in the Philippines.

The change from a regimented, monastic life to the simplicity and freedom of the missionary life proved a challenge for which I had not been prepared. I loved traveling to some of the eighty or more primitive barrios assigned to our parish. I also cherished teaching my religion class at the Carmelite high school in our small town. Until then my life had been almost exclusively among men. I enjoyed watching the girls giggle as they flirted with teasing boys After a while though, my attention was drawn to one of the more diligent students who thoroughly captivated my interest. This young lady was mature beyond her years because of the responsibilities that had fallen to her after her mother had died. She was lovely and shyly responded as we stole moments talking alone after class. This was a new adventure, and I soon interpreted our newly discovered affection as love.

It is not surprising that soon the bishop learned of this, though he was many miles away, and he quickly returned me to the States before any serious relationship could develop. The embarrassment of this discipline was difficult for both of us, but life always moves on. After the adventure and freedom in the Philippines, I had no motivation to return to monastic living, so the Father Provincial granted permission for me to work at a Discalced Carmelite parish in Arizona.”


10 posted on 08/31/2013 4:11:00 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: vladimir998

no, not really. I do not want to misrepresent my beliefs, so I must let you know that I was not serious. If you still want to send me a link, I would be glad to get it. But just as long as you know where I stand.

FReegards,

smvoice


11 posted on 08/31/2013 4:11:20 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

It does make me feel better. I never thought John Paul II was the greatest pope in the first place. But at least he was an honest man even if honestly wrong. He didn’t lie like so many Protestant anti-Catholics do.

And, by the way, you’re not telling me anything I didn’t already know for many years and freely acknowledge to Protestant and Catholic alike: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3060403/posts?page=36#36


12 posted on 08/31/2013 4:11:24 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“A pretty pathetic attempt at branding an opponent to your religion as a pedophile.”

Your post is a pretty pathetic attempt at branding my post as an attempt to brand him as a pedophile. I never said he was a pedophile. I said I wondered what the consent age was and if he was a statutory rapist. Both questions are legitimate under the circumstances.


13 posted on 08/31/2013 4:13:39 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: smvoice

I have no idea where you stand. I just know that Brewer admitted a romantic attachment to a teenage girl. He admitted it. That’s the truth.


14 posted on 08/31/2013 4:15:30 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

Keating vs Dave Hunt ... Roman Catholicism


15 posted on 08/31/2013 4:16:12 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: vladimir998

“Your post is a pretty pathetic attempt at branding my post as an attempt to brand him as a pedophile.”


Your reply is a pretty pathetic attempt to have it both ways. To accuse someone of being a statutory rapist of an underage girl with no evidence, and wresting this from a partial quote from his book when he was still a young priest, is rather disgusting and underhanded.

You should stick with dealing with all the Catholic Priests the RCC shuffles around wh oare actually pedophiles.

Also you should do something about the molestation of Korans by elderly Popes.


16 posted on 08/31/2013 4:17:47 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

By the way, I don’t think you’re being completely honest. I think you simply cut and pasted from a website that can’t be cited here at FR. Notice how you did not cite the specific page numbers?

Like I said, Protestant anti-Catholics lie.


17 posted on 08/31/2013 4:19:45 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

“It does make me feel better.”


It makes you feel better that the ‘Successor of Peter’ brought public scandal on the church by bowing to and kissing a Koran?

Just goes to show that Catholics are willing to forgive anything when it comes to their own.


18 posted on 08/31/2013 4:21:12 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: vladimir998

WEll, I apologize, then. I thought everyone around here knew EXACTLY where I stand. I should have included the /s on my post. Please accept my apology.


19 posted on 08/31/2013 4:21:30 PM PDT by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing are for an eternity..)
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To: vladimir998

“By the way, I don’t think you’re being completely honest. I think you simply cut and pasted from a website that can’t be cited here at FR. Notice how you did not cite the specific page numbers?”


Guilty people always go on the offensive when they feel their false statements being busted. I didn’t need to cite page numbers. You did so when you quoted the same passage, but you removed a sentence and robbed it of its context.


20 posted on 08/31/2013 4:23:29 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: vladimir998

For me, that’s not just a “mistake”. It’s just one more example of what happened as the result of Vatican II’s false ecumenism...which was a tragedy, not a just a mistake.


21 posted on 08/31/2013 4:26:05 PM PDT by piusv
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“Your reply is a pretty pathetic attempt to have it both ways.”

Nope. I just posted what was true.

“To accuse someone of being a statutory rapist of an underage girl with no evidence,”

I never once accused him. I said: “What’s the legal consent age in the Philippines? I wonder if he was a statutory rapist?”

“and wresting this from a partial quote from his book when he was still a young priest, is rather disgusting and underhanded.”

I do not own the book. Therefore, I, JUST LIKE YOU MOST LIKELY, must use an online source and the most obvious online source cannot be used here at FR because it is banned. I therefore used another source which had a shorter quote - which in no way changed the context of the information. Also, it had nothing to do with his being a “young priest”. He was well into adulthood when ordained (age 26 at his own reckoning of years from the full passage).


22 posted on 08/31/2013 4:26:26 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: piusv

“For me, that’s not just a “mistake”. It’s just one more example of what happened as the result of Vatican II’s false ecumenism...which was a tragedy, not a just a mistake.”

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. It is irrelevant to my point. He did something wrong in any case but seems to have been sincere - no matter how wrong he was.


23 posted on 08/31/2013 4:29:05 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998; All

” I therefore used another source which had a shorter quote - which in no way changed the context of the information.”


So then it seems you don’t even own the book and you used a shorter quote that was out of context with a sentence missing and then speculated that he might be a statutory rapist. Sounds like you made a thorough investigation, unlike his Bishop. You also accused him of being a big liar, without giving any examples of lies he had allegedly told. You are also accusing me of being a liar.

I think you should take a page from Bart himself and leave off the personal attacks altogether:

An Irenic Testimony
By T. L. Jones

“I had the privilege of knowing Bart Brewer and his wife. He was a very kindly man who cared about the salvation of souls. This book recounts the experiences and influences that led him out of the Roman Catholic priesthood and into the evangelical faith and ministry. What impressed me was that Bart didn’t question the sincerity of the seminary students he studied with nor the priests he knew, nor the many Roman Catholic people he grew up with. His burden was to show what the Bible says about the way to eternal life.”

The difference between the character of folks who stay in the RCC compared to those who leave really is a big difference!


24 posted on 08/31/2013 4:35:18 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: vladimir998
“What’s the legal consent age in the Philippines?

18. My Filipina wife was 20 when I met her.

25 posted on 08/31/2013 4:39:44 PM PDT by Mark17 (Yesterday I couldn't spell it. Today I are one, a creepy a$$ cracker)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

you wrote:

“So then it seems you don’t even own the book...”

I read about this in 1995. I don’t need to own the book. If you own the book, why didn’t you post the page numbers when you posted the text?

“and you used a shorter quote that was out of context”

False. The text was not at all out of context and the longer text you posted - probably violating board rules because it is from a banned website - was even more damning.

“with a sentence missing”

No missing sentence changed the fact that he was romantically attached to a teenage girl - WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT HE ADMITTED TO.

“and then speculated that he might be a statutory rapist.”

No, I wonder IF he was one. I did not “speculate” that “he might be” one. Those are two entirely different things. To a Protestant anti-Catholic, however, truth doesn’t matter.

“Sounds like you made a thorough investigation, unlike his Bishop.”

Unlike his bishop? Sounds like his bishop did exactly the right thing since Brewer admitted he “enjoyed watching the girls giggle as they flirted with teasing boys” and his “attention was drawn to one of the more diligent students who thoroughly captivated [his] interest.” The teenager was “mature beyond her years...lovely and shyly responded as [they] stole moments talking alone after class. This was a new adventure, and [Brewer] soon interpreted [their] newly discovered affection as love.” Those are his words.

And then, “It is not surprising that soon the bishop learned of this, though he was many miles away, and he quickly returned me to the States before any serious relationship could develop. The embarrassment of this discipline was difficult for both of us, but life always moves on.”

“You also accused him of being a big liar, without giving any examples of lies he had allegedly told.”

He was a liar. He lied, for instance, about his understanding of Seventh Day Adventism even though he was an SDA minister at one point.

“You are also accusing me of being a liar.”

Okay, then let’s take a step toward resolving that right now: From where did you get the text, the longer passage from Brewer, that you posted? What website did you cut and paste from?


26 posted on 08/31/2013 4:47:47 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Mark17

Mine was 38 and STILL looks 20


27 posted on 08/31/2013 4:47:57 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: vladimir998

“Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. It is irrelevant to my point. He did something wrong in any case but seems to have been sincere - no matter how wrong he was.”


Just goes to show how relativistic you have to be to remain in the Catholic religion. John Paul II is also on record saying that Christians and Muslims worship the same God. That

“all men are united to Christ solely by virtue of the Incarnation.[1]

say that all men are saved.[2]

· say that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the Creed is present, in all its essential elements, in non-Catholic sects.[3]

· say that the Catholic Church is in communion with non-Catholic sects.[4]

· say that the Catholic Church is incapable of giving credibility to the Gospel, unless there is a “reunion of Christians.”[5]

· say that the Catholic Church shares a common apostolic faith with the non-Catholic sects.[6]

· say that non-Catholic sects have an apostolic mission.[7]

· say that the Holy Ghost uses non-Catholic sects as a means of salvation.[8]

· say that it is divinely revealed that men have a right to religious freedom and freedom of conscience.[9]

· say that a properly ordered society is one in which all religions are given free rein to practice, proselytize and propagate.[10]

· say that Our Lord’s descent into hell simply means that He was buried.[11]

· participate in all forms of non-Catholic worship, including that of the Lutherans, the Jews, the Hindus, the American Indians, the Polynesians, to mention only some;

· praise the voodoo religion;

· permit the abomination of Assisi, in which a golden statue of Buddha was placed upon an altar an incensed by a Buddhist priest;

· permit the ecumenical abominations contained in the Ecumenical Directory.

· approve of sacrilege to the Blessed Sacrament by permitting non-Catholics to receive It.

Footnotes:

[1] Redemptor Hominis, 13.3

[2] Homily in Santa Maria in Trastevere, April 27, 1980

[3] Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on Some Aspects of the Church Understood as Communion., (1992)

[4] ibid.

[5] Osservatore Romano, May 20, 1980

[6] ibid.

[7] Osservatore Romano, June 10, 1980

[8] Catechesi Tradendæ, October 16, 1979

[9] Redemptor Hominis, 12.2 and Dives in Misericordia, and his speech to the United Nations on October 2, 1979 and in many other places.

[10] Vatican II, Dignitatis Humanæ, a document which John Paul II says has a particular binding force.

[11] General Audience, January 11, 1989

[12] May 31, 1980 in a speech to the Moslems in Paris.

[13] The Denzinger is the book which contains the teachings of the popes and general councils.

http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=29&catname=5#_edn12

So it seems that on the one hand, your Popes are in constant retreat and are constantly trying to appear tolerant and appealing to not just Protestants, but even giving credibility to Hindus, Voodoo practitioners and the like. Whereas (some) of the Catholic faithful, like on FR, attack their opponents with the most repulsive of insults.

How these folks don’t keep from going mad, I do not know. Considering Francis has also already been saying that atheists are “first class children of God” due to Christ’s sacrifice (when, really, they’re not children of God at all so long as they are unbelievers), I suspect that he will be giving us lots of new material for the future as well.


28 posted on 08/31/2013 4:48:18 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Mark17

Well, I’ll keep that in mind for when you come out with your book. :)


29 posted on 08/31/2013 4:48:41 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: knarf; All
Keating vs Dave Hunt
30 posted on 08/31/2013 4:50:01 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“Just goes to show how relativistic you have to be to remain in the Catholic religion.”

Well, I guess you have to change the subject since you lost the debate on Brewer already. Also, I expressed no relativism at all. My point was the same through out.

“John Paul II is also on record saying that Christians and Muslims worship the same God.”

Muslims and Christians both profess to worship the God of Abraham. John Paul II was not wrong to make that point nor to take Muslims at their word even of their understanding of God is limited by their unbelief in the Trinity. But again, since you lost on Brewer, I guess next we can expect the kitchen sink.


31 posted on 08/31/2013 4:52:33 PM PDT by vladimir998 (When Protestant anti-Catholics lose they change the subject)
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To: vladimir998

“No missing sentence changed the fact that he was romantically attached to a teenage girl - WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT HE ADMITTED TO.”


Romantically “attached”? Like going out with her? He mentions no attachment, only that he was getting too close and his Bishop shipped him off when he heard of it. Nor did he commit statutory rape, like you speculated. That’s what you get for quoting one sentence, without bothering to read the entire context.

I find his honesty compelling, since there was no reason for him to admit that he was falling in love with a high school girl while yet a Priest.

All the more reason why requiring such vows are demonic to begin with:

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.” (1Ti 4:1-3)

1Ti_3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

“He was a liar. He lied, for instance, about his understanding of Seventh Day Adventism even though he was an SDA minister at one point.”


Brewer did not lie about his involvement with the SDA, and his reason for leaving them due to their reliance on the teachings of their founder. This is a pure invention on your part, trying your best to paint a good man with deceit.

It’s not working:

“‘My first sermon emphasized the need for every pastor to preach the good news of salvation and growth in the Lord…Holy Scripture was my anchor, and His salvation was my message… the call came for my ordination to take place in the Vallejo Drive Seventh-day Adventist Church in Glendale… I admired the Adventists greatly… As time passed, there was only one thing that dampened our joy and caused some unrest in my heart. That was the heavy reliance of many Adventists on the writings and teachings of Mrs Ellen G White… I wanted to be sure that our little flock would look only to the Scriptures as the final authority for their faith… at the seminar (an annual SDA “Testimony Countdown” conference) I learned that leading Adventist elders regard them (Mrs White’s writings) as equal in authority to the writings of the prophets… She (Mrs White) came to regard herself as a sovereign authority on everything to which she put her mind… I knew that her teachings had become central doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church but I could not accept them as being equal with Scripture… I was summoned to a meeting one day and certain complaints were brought to my attention… Even my critics admitted that I was faithful to the Bible. I saw that as long as I questioned Mrs White’s predictions and interpretations I was headed for repeated confrontations with the church’s leaders… I would not submit to another pope or modern prophetess… Christianity is a personal walk with Jesus as Lord and Saviour, not a keeping of the laws as prescribed by Mrs White and the church hierarchy… My last sermon in the Adventist church came from Hebrews 1:3 “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high”. These words had brought me solace and comfort as I prepared my last message there.” (‘Pilgrimage from Rome’, Chapter 11 pg. 95-100)

Nice try though. Maybe you should rename yourself “Satan,” since you are quite the accuser.


32 posted on 08/31/2013 5:03:36 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: vladimir998

“Muslims and Christians both profess to worship the God of Abraham. John Paul II was not wrong to make that point nor to take Muslims at their word even of their understanding of God is limited by their unbelief in the Trinity.”


He said they worship the same God. He did not say they profess to worship the same God, even though they really don’t. Your religion is wrong to claim that Muslims worship the God of the Bible. In reality, they worship a demonic moon-god who is a badly perverted version of the one found in the Bible. He is an idol that does not exist.

” But again, since you lost on Brewer, I guess next we can expect the kitchen sink.”


Sounds like you’re losing the debate, since you’re already claiming victory. But more important than the debate though is the truth.


33 posted on 08/31/2013 5:06:11 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

And the reason to post this during an age of rampant Progressive vs. Any Christian denomination is what?


34 posted on 08/31/2013 5:32:44 PM PDT by Sapwolf (Talkers are usually more articulate than doers, since talk is their specialty. -Sowell)
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To: Sapwolf

“And the reason to post this during an age of rampant Progressive vs. Any Christian denomination is what?”


Primarily because the truth matters and I don’t care about ecumenical efforts even to fight the progressives.

Secondly, because some of the Catholics are trying to make the Religion Forum a place for Roman propaganda, as seen in their thread of similar name to mine, but in the reverse, also posted today.


35 posted on 08/31/2013 5:35:08 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I asked you if you had the book. I guess the answer is no.

You are - apparently - digging your hole deeper by cutting and pasting from more websites without admitting you used a banned one.

You posted this (oddly with double quotes):

“‘My first sermon emphasized the need for every pastor to preach the good news of salvation and growth in the Lord…Holy Scripture was my anchor, and His salvation was my message… the call came for my ordination to take place in the Vallejo Drive Seventh-day Adventist Church in Glendale… I admired the Adventists greatly… As time passed, there was only one thing that dampened our joy and caused some unrest in my heart. That was the heavy reliance of many Adventists on the writings and teachings of Mrs Ellen G White… I wanted to be sure that our little flock would look only to the Scriptures as the final authority for their faith… at the seminar (an annual SDA “Testimony Countdown” conference) I learned that leading Adventist elders regard them (Mrs White’s writings) as equal in authority to the writings of the prophets… She (Mrs White) came to regard herself as a sovereign authority on everything to which she put her mind… I knew that her teachings had become central doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church but I could not accept them as being equal with Scripture… I was summoned to a meeting one day and certain complaints were brought to my attention… Even my critics admitted that I was faithful to the Bible. I saw that as long as I questioned Mrs White’s predictions and interpretations I was headed for repeated confrontations with the church’s leaders… I would not submit to another pope or modern prophetess… Christianity is a personal walk with Jesus as Lord and Saviour, not a keeping of the laws as prescribed by Mrs White and the church hierarchy… My last sermon in the Adventist church came from Hebrews 1:3 “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high”. These words had brought me solace and comfort as I prepared my last message there.” (‘Pilgrimage from Rome’, Chapter 11 pg. 95-100)

Apparently you lifted that from here: http://www.takeheed.net/Take_Heed_2010/Current_Concerns/May_2010/Seventh_day_Adventist_pastor_resigns.htm The parenthetical comments might be a give away. The exact same ellipses. Imagine that. Here is what the website I just mentioned says:

After leaving the Roman Catholic priesthood Bart trained and became an SDA pastor but in chapter 11 of his book [pp 95-100] ‘Pilgrimage from Rome’ he wrote the following –

‘My first sermon emphasized the need for every pastor to preach the good news of salvation and growth in the Lord…Holy Scripture was my anchor, and His salvation was my message… the call came for my ordination to take place in the Vallejo Drive Seventh-day Adventist Church in Glendale… I admired the Adventists greatly… As time passed, there was only one thing that dampened our joy and caused some unrest in my heart. That was the heavy reliance of many Adventists on the writings and teachings of Mrs Ellen G White… I wanted to be sure that our little flock would look only to the Scriptures as the final authority for their faith… at the seminar (an annual SDA “Testimony Countdown” conference) I learned that leading Adventist elders regard them (Mrs White’s writings) as equal in authority to the writings of the prophets… She (Mrs White) came to regard herself as a sovereign authority on everything to which she put her mind… I knew that her teachings had become central doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church but I could not accept them as being equal with Scripture… I was summoned to a meeting one day and certain complaints were brought to my attention… Even my critics admitted that I was faithful to the Bible. I saw that as long as I questioned Mrs White’s predictions and interpretations I was headed for repeated confrontations with the church’s leaders… I would not submit to another pope or modern prophetess… Christianity is a personal walk with Jesus as Lord and Saviour, not a keeping of the laws as prescribed by Mrs White and the church hierarchy… My last sermon in the Adventist church came from Hebrews 1:3 “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high”. These words had brought me solace and comfort as I prepared my last message there.

You wrote: “Romantically “attached”?”

Yep, and I bet if it was your teenage daughter you would see it exactly that way - just before you punched Brewer in the face.

“Like going out with her? He mentions no attachment, only that he was getting too close and his Bishop shipped him off when he heard of it.”

Getting too close? Uh, try this: “After a while though, my attention was drawn to one of the more diligent students who thoroughly captivated my interest...She was lovely and shyly responded as we stole moments talking alone after class. This was a new adventure, and I soon interpreted our newly discovered affection as love.”

HE WAS IN LOVE WITH HER AND YOU THINK THERE WAS NO ROMANTIC ATTACHMENT? The lengths you Protestant anti-Catholics will go to to cover for your Protestant anti-Catholic heroes is astounding. Then Brewer continues:

“It is not surprising that soon the bishop learned of this,”

Oops! That means it was obvious to others who reported on the young lovers (remember, he said they were in love).

“The embarrassment of this discipline was difficult for both of us, but life always moves on.”

So, you say there was no romantic attachment, but he says he “interpreted” their “affection as love” and their separation was “difficult”.

“Nor did he commit statutory rape, like you speculated.”

Look up “speculate”. You clearly do not know the meaning of it. I never speculated. Also, how do you know he did not commit statutory rape? What is your evidence for that.

“That’s what you get for quoting one sentence, without bothering to read the entire context.”

I read the entire context and nothing I quoted went against it. Everything you posted has shown that what I posted in the first place was correct. You need to learn what the word “speculate” means. Work on that.

Now, on to your next bad attempt at an argument:

“Brewer did not lie about his involvement with the SDA,”

I never said he did lie about his involvement. Do you read much?

“and his reason for leaving them due to their reliance on the teachings of their founder. This is a pure invention on your part, trying your best to paint a good man with deceit.”

No. This is what Brewer wrote (and I am using now the same banned website you apparently used but won’t own up to):

“Not long after I was ordained as a Seventh Day Adventist minister,....”

WHOA! Did you see that? He was ALREADY ordained as an SDA minister. He had already gone through the SDA ministerial training by this point. That takes MONTHS AND MONTHS! And yet, he then wrote this:

“The one that became a turning point in my life was that the writings of Ellen G. White are “equally inspired as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.” Disturbed, I counseled with a highly respected leader, but could in no way reconcile this in my conscience.”

There’s no way Brewer could go through all of THOSE MONTHS of ministry training for the SDA and only discover sometime afterward what they really teach about E. G. White when it is plain from their publically accessible literature at the time.

Now, from where did you get the first Brewer quote you posted in post 10? Will you admit where you got it from? I’m still betting no at this point. To admit the truth is hard for an anti-Catholic Protestant. Lies and deception come to them so easily.


36 posted on 08/31/2013 5:37:11 PM PDT by vladimir998 (When Protestant anti-Catholics lose they change the subject)
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To: vladimir998
Well, I’ll keep that in mind for when you come out with your book. :)

LOL, ok, I'll buy that.

37 posted on 08/31/2013 5:42:05 PM PDT by Mark17 (Yesterday I couldn't spell it. Today I are one, a creepy a$$ cracker)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“He said they worship the same God. He did not say they profess to worship the same God, even though they really don’t.”

Since his statement was not part of the ordinary magisterium and it wasn’t an ex cathedra pronouncement I really don’t care what he said. It changes exactly nothing of the faith.

“Your religion is wrong to claim that Muslims worship the God of the Bible.”

Your opinion is duly noted, but you’re opinion is based on a false premise. The CCC, which is the statement that matters since it is that which is a sure norm, says “profess”. Case closed.

“In reality, they worship a demonic moon-god who is a badly perverted version of the one found in the Bible. He is an idol that does not exist.”

And none of that changes the fact that you’re wrong about Brewer.


38 posted on 08/31/2013 5:45:52 PM PDT by vladimir998 (When Protestant anti-Catholics lose they change the subject)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; Sapwolf

“And the reason to post this during an age of rampant Progressive vs. Any Christian denomination is what?”

Greeting Puny Humans is right when he says: “Primarily because the truth matters”. The problem is he shows no evidence of knowing much truth.


39 posted on 08/31/2013 5:49:25 PM PDT by vladimir998 (When Protestant anti-Catholics lose they change the subject)
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To: vladimir998

Now, from where did you get the first Brewer quote you posted in post 10? Will you admit where you got it from? I’m still betting no at this point. To admit the truth is hard for an anti-Catholic Protestant. Lies and deception come to them so easily.


40 posted on 08/31/2013 5:50:08 PM PDT by vladimir998 (When Protestant anti-Catholics lose they change the subject)
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To: knarf
Mine was 38 and STILL looks 20

Good for you. Mine still looks like she is in her 20s, because she IS. -:)

41 posted on 08/31/2013 5:51:49 PM PDT by Mark17 (Yesterday I couldn't spell it. Today I are one, a creepy a$$ cracker)
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To: vladimir998; Greetings_Puny_Humans
>>The CCC, which is the statement that matters since it is that which is a sure norm, says “profess”. Case closed.<<

So when Catholics say they profess the Nicene Creed we are to realize they really don’t?

42 posted on 08/31/2013 6:01:32 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: vladimir998

“You are - apparently - digging your hole deeper by cutting and pasting from more websites without admitting you used a banned one.”


I don’t even remember there even being a hole about such a thing. I think this is more a manifestation of your desperation just talking to talk.

“just before you punched Brewer in the face.”


I think you want to punch Brewer in the face, but I am not so sure it has anything to do with him chatting with any high school girls from a story he himself offered from his life. I’m pretty sure it has more to do with him not being Catholic anymore, and so you want us all to imagine him there groping her and planning to commit statutory rape.

“There’s no way Brewer could go through all of THOSE MONTHS of ministry training for the SDA and only discover sometime afterward what they really teach about E. G. White when it is plain from their publically accessible literature at the time.”


How do you know the SDA always tells its members that White’s words are allegedly equal to scripture? There are plenty of people in that “denomination” who are not privy to every single claim their Prophetess has made. Same thing with the Mormons. Same thing with the Catholics. Ask a Catholic today whether or not their religion always taught freedom of religion, and they probably wouldn’t be aware that they have Popes as recently as the 19th century damning the entire concept.

Isn’t that just an assumption on your part on what he had or had not heard? And you have no evidence that he was lying at all, except that you desire that he is a liar? It’s not like anyone was confronting him about it either. You’re literally using his own testimony about his life, his premature entrance into the SDA, his dabbling with the Charismatics for a little while, and then his eventual leaving as he grew in knowledge.

It’s my duty to inform you that you seem more desperate than sure about anything you say.

So, what else do you have against Brewer? Your first two attempts have been pretty lame.


43 posted on 08/31/2013 6:05:15 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: vladimir998

“Since his statement was not part of the ordinary magisterium and it wasn’t an ex cathedra pronouncement I really don’t care what he said.”


So much for the “Successor of Peter,” eh?

Your catechism says

“841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”330

The plan of salvation includes those who acknowledge the creator, in the first place... Muslims.

Just so you know, there is no plan of salvation outside of Christianity.

This also doesn’t change the fact that you’re wrong about Christianity, the Pope and his tongue kissing of a Koran, and Brewer.


44 posted on 08/31/2013 6:10:27 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: CynicalBear

“So when Catholics say they profess the Nicene Creed we are to realize they really don’t?”

Your questions makes no sense. The Nicene Creed’s doctrines are all professed by Catholics.


45 posted on 08/31/2013 6:11:50 PM PDT by vladimir998 (When Protestant anti-Catholics lose they change the subject)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Why would I bother reading or hearing about people who have no perseverance in the faith? If they cannot be faithful, what benefit, to me, can come from following their unfaithfulness?


46 posted on 08/31/2013 6:15:35 PM PDT by Bayard
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To: Bayard

“Why would I bother reading or hearing about people who have no perseverance in the faith? If they cannot be faithful, what benefit, to me, can come from following their unfaithfulness?”


To encourage you to be unfaithful to the Roman Catholic Church, of course. What truth is there in a religion that denies that perseverance is the gift of God, and not from your own native merit? Such a religion has certainly lost all claims to being the church of God, much like the Jews who gloried in their succession lost it at their apostasy.

“All our good merits are only wrought in us by grace, and -when God crowns our merits, he crowns nothing but his own gifts. (Augustine, Letter 194)

“Have just men, then, no merits? Certainly they have, because they are righteous. But they were not made righteous by merits. For they are made righteous when they are justified, but as the apostle says, they are justified freely by his grace.” (Ibid)

“I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling.” (Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints)

“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)

“For who makes thee to differ, and what has thou that thou hast not received?” (1 Cor. iv. 7). Our merits therefore do not cause us to differ, but grace. For if it be merit, it is a debt; and if it be a debt, it is not gratuitous; and if it be not gratuitous, it is not grace. (Augustine, Sermon 293)


47 posted on 08/31/2013 6:19:12 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“I don’t even remember there even being a hole about such a thing. I think this is more a manifestation of your desperation just talking to talk.”

Okay, let’s see: Post the website from which you got the long Brewer quote.

“I think you want to punch Brewer in the face, but I am not so sure it has anything to do with him chatting with any high school girls from a story he himself offered from his life.”

Chatting? He said they “stole” time alone. He said he “interpreted” their “affection” as “love”. And you get “chatting” out of that?

“I’m pretty sure it has more to do with him not being Catholic anymore, and so you want us all to imagine him there groping her and planning to commit statutory rape.”

I don’t care what you imagine about Brewer. Imagine whatever you like, but there’s no way, they were just “chatting” if he thought they were in love. Apparently you’re already imagining quite a bit.

“How do you know the SDA always tells its members that White’s words are allegedly equal to scripture?”

How do you know they don’t? Have you ever read their old literature from the 50s and 60s? I read some. It’s there. And do you think you could be an SDA minister and not know that?

“There are plenty of people in that “denomination” who are not privy to every single claim their Prophetess has made.”

And how many ministers of the SDA would not know one of the foundational beliefs of that denomination? Think before you answer.

“Same thing with the Mormons.”

No. You will not find the equivalent of a pastor in Mormonism (and I realize there is no direct equivalent) who does not know that the LDS teaches the writings of Joseph Smith are scripture.

“Same thing with the Catholics. Ask a Catholic today whether or not their religion always taught freedom of religion, and they probably wouldn’t be aware that they have Popes as recently as the 19th century damning the entire concept.”

The question to ask would be this: Are both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition authoritative in the Church. And every priest (the equivalent of a minister) would know the answer is yes.

If you’re going to make analogies, make them correctly. I realize many public schools stink, but these are basic skills.

“It’s my duty to inform you that you seem more desperate than sure about anything you say.”

Okay, post the source of the original quote - the long passage - from Brewer that you posted. When you don’t do it, and I think it’s obvious you won’t, I think we’ll see something.

“So, what else do you have against Brewer? Your first two attempts have been pretty lame.”

No, I have been absolutely correct all along. What is pretty lame is how you won’t post the source of the original quote - the long passage - from Brewer that you posted. Care to explain that? Are you desperately looking for an actual copy of the book?


48 posted on 08/31/2013 6:26:35 PM PDT by vladimir998 (When Protestant anti-Catholics lose they change the subject)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I was unaware there were any members of the Know Nothing Party still alive much less posting threads on the Free Republic.


49 posted on 08/31/2013 6:30:56 PM PDT by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“So much for the “Successor of Peter,” eh?”

No.

“Your catechism says

.... these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Right. PROFESS. The second statement is in relation to the first and is conditional in relation to it.

“Just so you know, there is no plan of salvation outside of Christianity.”

So, you’re saying the Jews never existed? They are outside of Christianity.

“This also doesn’t change the fact that you’re wrong about Christianity, the Pope and his tongue kissing of a Koran, and Brewer.”

I’m not wrong about Christianity, the Pope, or Brewer.

But you apparently aren’t going to post the source of the original quote - the long passage - from Brewer that you posted. Care to explain that? Are you desperately looking for an actual copy of the book?


50 posted on 08/31/2013 6:32:54 PM PDT by vladimir998 (When Protestant anti-Catholics lose they change the subject)
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