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A look at John 3:14-18
Answering Protestants ^ | 14 September 2013 | Matthew Olson

Posted on 09/14/2013 12:29:44 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson

John 3:14-18 doesn’t necessarily support the “faith alone” position.

For Protestants, John 3:14-18 might seem like the ultimate “Gotcha!” passage to use against Catholics. But if you look a little deeper, you’ll recognize that the passage does not defend the “faith alone” position and is totally in line with Catholic teaching.

The passage reads as, “‘As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.’”

That might seem a little damning to the Catholic position that good works are necessary, right? Well, in truth, it’s not.

With God, to believe means to obey. God does not desire a lukewarm, vague belief in Him, but a devoted life in His service. This is evidenced later in the chapter. John 3:36 reads as, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

And if one looks at verses 19-21 of the chapter, they will see that Christ said that those who “love darkness” and do “evil deeds” will not reach “the Light” (Heaven).

Sin — which, at its heart, is anything offensive to God — is a heinous, damaging thing that we must cleanse ourselves of. This cleansing is done through Christ, of course, but meriting it requires a little more than a belief in Him. It requires a repentant heart (see Luke 13:3) and, in the case of mortal sin, sacramental confession (see my video about Confession).

On top of all of this, Christ told us in John 13:15 to follow the example that He set and He also told us — in John 15:10 — that we must keep His commandments to “abide in [His] love”.

We can’t just sit back and relax non-stop, counting on our vague “faith” to save us — we have to do things! Like St. Paul wrote in Colossians 1:24, we must help the Church in “filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.”

So, when reading the Bible, remember that true belief requires obedience and good works.

(All verses are from the NASB translation.)

--------------

Click here to watch the accompanying video.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; christian; gospel; jesus
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1 posted on 09/14/2013 12:29:44 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson
We can’t just sit back and relax non-stop, counting on our vague “faith” to save us

Protestants won't agree that one must relax non-stop. They believe that true faith will result in good works. However, they do believe that faith in Christ's work is what saves...His righteousness replaces our sinful nature and that is a saving truth.

remember that true belief requires obedience and good works.

Again, Protestants believe this.

2 posted on 09/14/2013 12:38:13 PM PDT by what's up
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To: matthewrobertolson
"With God, to believe means to obey."

Stopped right there ... for EVERYthing said past that hinged ON that and ... it's wrong.

3 posted on 09/14/2013 12:41:36 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: All

The gospel (good news) of eternal salvation:

The Bible is clear that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God who died on the cross as our substitute.

He paid the penalty for our sins.

He took the punishment that we deserve.

God’s provision of eternal salvation is a free gift (Eph. 2:8,9).

God, through Jesus Christ, did everything.

All you do is accept that free gift.

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

The Bible explains how to be saved (how to receive the free gift of eternal salvation):

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVES in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He who BELIEVES on him is not condemned: but he who does not BELIEVE is condemned already, because he has not BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by FAITH, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by FAITH without the deeds of the law

John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to BELIEVE in the one he has sent.”

John 6:47
(Jesus Christ said) He who BELIEVES in me has everlasting life.

Acts 16:31
BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved

Acts 10:43
Every one who BELIEVES in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

John 11:25-26
(Jesus Christ said) I am the resurrection and the life. He who BELIEVES in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and BELIEVES in me will never die. Do you BELIEVE this?

_______________________________________________

A few helpful resources:

Gospel Wars - Part 1 (paper)
by Dr. Robert L. Dean Jr.
http://deanbible.org/Media/Doctrines/A-G/Gospel%20Wars%20part%201.pdf

Gospel Wars - Part 2 (paper)
by Dr. Robert L. Dean Jr.
http://deanbible.org/Media/Doctrines/A-G/Gospel%20Wars%20part%202.pdf

What Is Wrong with Lordship Salvation? (article)
by Dr. Andy Woods
http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/documents/articles/59/59.pdf

The Free Grace Alliance
offers dozens of free papers examining problems with so-called Lordship Salvation:
http://www.freegracealliance.com/articles.htm


4 posted on 09/14/2013 12:55:19 PM PDT by onthelookout777
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To: matthewrobertolson

Why should we believe this man’s interpretation of what God and Christ mean when they speak? Scripture is the only data. This author has expressed mere opinion. The reason I bring this up being today’s general, and in many cases proper, disbelief in any authority. Authority has shown itself venal and corrupt filled with secret unstated goals and “policies!”


5 posted on 09/14/2013 12:57:39 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: matthewrobertolson

I want to know one thing. What purpose does all this anti-Protestant junk serve? It seems like y’all are trying to convince yourselves you are right. I have never seen so many threads about you are right and everyone else is wrong.


6 posted on 09/14/2013 1:01:04 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: All

Quote: “With God, to believe means to obey. God does not desire a lukewarm, vague belief in Him, but a devoted life in His service. This is evidenced later in the chapter. John 3:36 reads as, ‘He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.’”

______________________________________________

Helpful notes from Dr. Robert L. Dean Jr.’s verse-by-verse series on the Gospel of John:

John 3:36 NASB “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

The conclusion to the whole chapter.

Notice it doesn’t say, he who believes and is baptised, he who believes and joins the church, he who believes and is circumcised, he who believes and follows the Mosaic Law, he who believes and commits himself.

Incidentally, one of the big problems today is that faith is defined by many people as commitment.

That is absurd.

Faith is not commitment; faith is to trust, to believe, to accept something as true.

Commitment has to do with things in the spiritual life, it has nothing to do with salvation.

Notice the shift in words: “but he who does not obey.”

This is a very important shift.

The one who believes has eternal life but the one who is disobedient, the one who does not obey -

Notice is doesn’t say “the one who does not believe.”

Why is that?

Because it is a command.

What is the command?

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.”

If you obey the command (to) believe you will have eternal life.

The issue here is not obedience to the Law, obedience to every mandate in Scripture.

The issue is one particular mandate,

Acts 16:31 NASB “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...”

http://www.divineviewpoint.com/sane/dbm/setup/John/Jno032.htm


7 posted on 09/14/2013 1:06:58 PM PDT by onthelookout777
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS

Through FAITH alone in Christ alone.


8 posted on 09/14/2013 1:08:27 PM PDT by k4gypsyrose
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To: what's up

The majority Protestant position is that only faith is absolutely necessary for salvation. That’s why I said we should not count on it to “save” us. I didn’t say that Protestants don’t also say that obedience and good works are an outward sign of our faith — because they do — but many will reluctantly admit that, strictly speaking, they’re not absolutely necessary for salvation. I think the typical Protestant position usually just ends up being lip service to, but not actual belief in, the importance of works. That’s what I was denouncing.


9 posted on 09/14/2013 1:10:58 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: onthelookout777
You posted a lot of material, but I would disagree with you on this. For example, Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn't really defend the "faith alone" position. It mostly just emphasizes the importance (and necessity) of God's grace for salvation. Without His grace, neither our faith nor our works would have any meaning. See my video on that for more: link As for the rest of the passages you listed, please see the videos pertaining to "faith alone" here (not all of your passages will be directly addressed -- yet -- but you will get a good idea of the Catholic position, which might actually surprise you): link
10 posted on 09/14/2013 1:11:55 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson

Well, if the Pontiff, who as I understand it is the Vicar of Christ, is saying athiests can attain Heaven by listening to their conscience, then I think anything that comes from Rome needs to be re-evaluated.

Christ said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Me.”


11 posted on 09/14/2013 1:14:38 PM PDT by ealgeone (obama, border)
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To: matthewrobertolson
What about Jeremiah 31:34?

No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

And - why did Jesus die? And - Why were those who wanted to continue the old ways of circumcision and such to "help earn their way" said to be fallen from Grace?

Where does the Bible say that priests have the innate ability to cause transubstantiation at will, Sunday-after-Sunday (and other days too)?

12 posted on 09/14/2013 1:18:19 PM PDT by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: matthewrobertolson

I believe the enemy will use Any argument to distract the Believer.when a Protestant recalls that certain Catholics have in times past claimed that Protestants almost are Christian also. ( Or whatever that Pope said) and whenever Catholics point to Protestants ,as has been attempted here—it is nothing but the enemy using whom so ever he will.does not the Holy Writ declare “There is one body and one spirit,just as you were called in one hope of your calling:one Lord, one faith,one baptism;one God and Father of all,who is above all,and through all,and in you all.” (Nelson Study Bible;The Companion Bible) In my opinion This passage affirms my doctrine—that whenever anyone is pointing a finger at any other part of the body of Christ and suggesting that because they are not the same finger-or hand— or foot—because they have not looked through that dark glass in quite the same way that their believing is somehow less—be time you got the log out of your own eye
before you speak of a splinter in another’s?I can no more fault all Catholic because I am not Catholic Nor all Jews because I was born an American Christian and once was taught false doctrine myself. On this journey I would rather stand with a brother or sister in Christ than I would waste my time only with those who think or who were schooled in the same school.


13 posted on 09/14/2013 1:18:53 PM PDT by Robert Burkholder
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To: MamaB; matthewrobertolson
The truth:

John 3


5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be born anew.' 8 The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit." 9 Nicode'mus said to him, "How can this be?" 10 Jesus answered him, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.


14 posted on 09/14/2013 1:19:19 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: matthewrobertolson; All

“This cleansing is done through Christ, of course, but meriting it requires a little more than a belief in Him.”


This goes to show the absolute biblical confusion of the Catholics. While it is certainly true that a faith without works is dead, it is not true that works merit grace, or that a quantity of works saves, as the scripture directly says that “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt” (Rom 4:4). And again, “by grace ye are saved” (Eph 2:5). This is because whoever seeks to be justified by doing good works must do them perfectly, as the scripture declares, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them”(Gal 3:10). In fact, keeping the law perfectly is our duty which we must do as the minimal standard, as Christ declares:

“Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”(Luk 17:9-10)

Catholics have a tendency, then, to downplay the heinousness of sin, and to puff up the righteousness of man, in order to get beyond these difficulties. So they build up degrees of sin, even though all are fatal, since, in reality, even just one sin puts you under the guilt of the entire law, as the scripture says, “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all” (Jas 2:10). And again, “the soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezek 18:4). And as touching the righteousness of man, he is utterly empty of any of it. A man has no righteousness of his own. What passes as our righteousness, as the scripture declares, “are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away” (Isa 64:6). And again, “there is none that doeth good, no, not one”(Rom 3:12). Therefore we must conclude with Paul that, “Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God” (2Co 3:5).

It is for this reason, then, that we do not glory in our alleged meriting of grace, or of a righteousness of ourselves that is worthy of salvation, but instead we must glory in Christ whose righteousness is imputed onto us by faith only, as Paul says:

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.” (Rom 4:5-8)

When we speak of faith being dead without works, therefore, we speak not of a quantity of works which merit grace. The Papists, occasionally, imagine a scale in heaven with their good and evil works weighed against each other. For example, from the ‘Secrets of the Rosary” endorsed by Pope John Paul the second:

“One day the King fell seriously ill and when he was given up for dead he found himself, in a vision, before the judgement seat of Our Lord. Many devils were there accusing him of all the sins he had committed and Our Lord as Sovereign Judge was just about to condemn him to hell when Our Lady appeared to intercede for him. She called for a pair of scales and had his sins placed in one of the balances whereas she put the rosary that he had always worn on the other scale, together with all the Rosaries that had been said because of his example. It was found that the Rosaries weighed more than his sins.

Looking at him with great kindness Our Lady said: “As a reward for this little honor that you paid me in wearing my Rosary, I have obtained a great grace for you from my Son. Your life will be spared for a few more years. See that you spend these years wisely, and do penance.”

When the King regained consciousness he cried out: “Blessed be the Rosary of the Most Holy Virgin Mary, by which I have been delivered from eternal damnation!””

http://www.rosary-center.org/secret.htm

This is a wholly blasphemous view of salvation which must be rejected. There is no weighing of good works for your salvation, as if you had any. According to the scripture, there isn’t a single man who is good. Not even Paul, as we see in Romans 7, was free of sin. Instead, he lamented that he sinned so greatly, and did not do all the good that he would. John, in his epistle, declares that anyone who says the have no sin, is a liar. In reality, if anything is measured, it is the quality of the faith which a man has that shall either damn him or justify him. Not the quantity of works, but the living faith, as opposed to the mere belief of devils (who all believe in God, but are damned), which produces good works the way a pregnant cloud produces rain.

Though this would still be an imperfect way of speaking, because faith also is the gift of God, and we cannot imagine that anything given by God is of dubious quality. Perhaps it is better to say, that the faith of the elect, which is from God, is always perfect; whereas the dead faith of evil ones is always found wanting. Hence why Paul says that we are not sufficient for anything, and this includes our faith, which is given to us by the Holy Spirit when we were yet unwilling and dead in our sin. As the scripture says, “no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1 Co 12:3). Again, “no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father” (Joh 6:65). And again, “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Php 2:13).

Thus both faith and good works must bow to grace, which provides liberally for both for all those predestined before the world began; not according to our works, or our foreseen goodness and faith, but according to His good pleasure and purpose.


15 posted on 09/14/2013 1:19:36 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: matthewrobertolson; what's up
>> I think<<

There’s your problem right there. You “think” you know what the Protestants mean. So you "think" you know it's only lip service ey? Well, danounce all you want with your suppositions. It looks disingenuous from here.

16 posted on 09/14/2013 1:19:47 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: All

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

It’s so very clear.

Christ, the eternal Son of God tells us to believe in Him.

The one who believes in Him has eternal life.

But the one who does not obey Him, the wrath of God abides on that person.

In context, what is it that has just been said that must be obeyed if one is to have eternal life?

We must believe in Him.

That’s what was just said in the previous sentence.

Believe in Him.

That’s what He said that must be obeyed if one is to have eternal life.


17 posted on 09/14/2013 1:21:53 PM PDT by onthelookout777
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To: MamaB; All

” It seems like y’all are trying to convince yourselves you are right. I have never seen so many threads about you are right and everyone else is wrong.”


That’s exactly it. The Papists on this forum have been getting whipped in just about every thread they have started, and so this causes, as a consequence, even more threads from them. It is a sign of their desperation.

It’s a good thing, as it gives us more opportunity to drive them all mad, as well as opportunity to provide retorts filled with sound doctrine for those who are ignorant of these things.


18 posted on 09/14/2013 1:22:34 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: trebb

At their ordinations. Read 1 Timothy about presbyters.


19 posted on 09/14/2013 1:22:45 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: matthewrobertolson
The majority Protestant position is that only faith is absolutely necessary for salvation

Yes, and evidence of salvation is the good works that result. Good works are the fruit of salvation. They are not the root of salvation i.e. can never earn salvation.

You've got the cart before the horse in thinking differently.

20 posted on 09/14/2013 1:23:44 PM PDT by what's up
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To: matthewrobertolson

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


21 posted on 09/14/2013 1:26:40 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: ealgeone
That's not what the Pope is actually saying. Here's a post about his prior comments about atheists. It doesn't specifically refer to the latest comments, but it does address them: link
22 posted on 09/14/2013 1:36:44 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
When I said "meriting it," I was saying that, while God has freely given us the process to cleanse ourselves (through Christ), we must actually DO it -- it doesn't just magically happen. I was not saying that God's grace must be merited. I suppose that I could have made that more clear. See this video for more on the Catholic position on grace in this context: link
Now, for your position that man is totally depraved, this thread has some good information that opposes it: link
23 posted on 09/14/2013 1:36:50 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson

Watching videos on my computer is too tedious a process. If you have anything to say, I’d appreciate it if you posted it in the thread, in text form, for all to see and understand. But as for the Catholic view of grace, they treat it like a magical substance which they do indeed merit by their works.


24 posted on 09/14/2013 1:41:03 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: matthewrobertolson

The essentials of the gospel are simple and need no extended theological arguments...

1. Hear the Word
2. Believe the Word
3. Repent your sins
4. Confess that Christ is the Son of God
5. Be baptized for the remission of your sins

The New Testament lays this process out it in an easy to understand format. No need for endless debate. The story is there. If you don’t believe it then you reject it. End of argument!


25 posted on 09/14/2013 1:42:18 PM PDT by ChoobacKY
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

They so desperately want to trust their works. And if their works fail them, they think they”ll burn off the rest of their sin debt in purgatory. But as it says in Jude, they’ve “gone the way of Cain.” They don’t understand the way of salvation that was made plain from Genesis forward.

Like ethnic Israel of old, “they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” (Romans 10:2-3)

“Salvation is of The Lord.” (Jonah 2:9)

“...born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:13)

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)


26 posted on 09/14/2013 1:44:24 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: matthewrobertolson

One would have to ignore the whole of scripture to arrive at such a position. Romans 4, Titus 3, Galatians, Ephesians 1-3, Phil. 3.


27 posted on 09/14/2013 1:47:23 PM PDT by lurk
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To: .45 Long Colt
What a perversion of scripture the Catholics are willing to believe. John 3:36 says, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Catholics have to mis-translate the verse to make a point.

28 posted on 09/14/2013 1:55:26 PM PDT by aimhigh
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To: matthewrobertolson
God has freely given us the process to cleanse ourselves (through Christ), we must actually DO it

No, God provides and also does it.

You cannot cleanse yourself. This is only done through the purity of Christ.

29 posted on 09/14/2013 2:17:33 PM PDT by what's up
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To: .45 Long Colt
If you would really like to understand the Catholic position, watch this video (it's under 2 minutes) that explains that passage in context: link
30 posted on 09/14/2013 2:19:56 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: lurk
Verses supposedly supportive of "faith alone" in Romans 4 (and all of Romans) simply denounce the Mosaic Law (video that covers that here), Titus 3 will be addressed in an upcoming video (stay tuned for that), Galatians 2 is addressed here, Ephesians 2 is addressed here, and Philippians 3 is addressed here.
31 posted on 09/14/2013 2:19:56 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson
The passage reads as, “‘As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.’”

That might seem a little damning to the Catholic position that good works are necessary, right? Well, in truth, it’s not.

It is damning to your Catholic religion until you guys get your hands on it and pervert what it says...

With God, to believe means to obey. God does not desire a lukewarm, vague belief in Him, but a devoted life in His service.

What are you doing perverting God's scripture???

Gal_1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Believe

πιστεύω

pisteuō pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

To believe on means to entrust...

John 3:36 reads as, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

The verse does not say that at all...Why are you again perverting God's words...What is your agenda???

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

You even pervert your own Catholic Douay-Rheims bible:

36 He that believeth in the Son hath life everlasting: but he that believeth not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Sin — which, at its heart, is anything offensive to God — is a heinous, damaging thing that we must cleanse ourselves of. This cleansing is done through Christ, of course, but meriting it requires a little more than a belief in Him. It requires a repentant heart (see Luke 13:3) and, in the case of mortal sin, sacramental confession (see my video about Confession).

More perversion...

Do you not even know what REPENT means???

Repent

μετανοέω

metanoeō
met-an-o-eh'-o

From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.

Repentance is not to do something to clean ourselves...It is impossible to 'clean' ourselves...

Repentance is to change the direction of your heart and mind toward God...There are no works to repentance...

32 posted on 09/14/2013 2:27:18 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: matthewrobertolson
You posted a lot of material, but I would disagree with you on this. For example, Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn't really defend the "faith alone" position. It mostly just emphasizes the importance (and necessity) of God's grace for salvation. Without His grace, neither our faith nor our works would have any meaning.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God is watching you corrupt his bible...

33 posted on 09/14/2013 2:32:41 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: matthewrobertolson; All

“Verses supposedly supportive of “faith alone” in Romans 4 (and all of Romans) simply denounce the Mosaic Law (video that covers that here), Titus 3 will be addressed in an upcoming video (stay tuned for that), Galatians 2 is addressed here, Ephesians 2 is addressed here, and Philippians 3 is addressed here.”


I don’t bother to watch videos due to technical reasons, but I’m sure most other people can’t be bothered to check out a bunch of random videos giving your YouTube channel hits. You would be better served presenting your full arguments on this forum. I do it all the time, even the same debate on multiple threads, against the Catholics.


34 posted on 09/14/2013 2:42:27 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: onthelookout777

What about the parable of the sheep and the goats and the whole “I was hungry, and you did not give me food to eat” . . . or does that one not count in your Bible?

PS, If it takes you more than 100 words to explain away the extraordinarily clear meaning of this extraordinarily brief passage you’re probably making excuses.


35 posted on 09/14/2013 2:42:31 PM PDT by cizinec ("Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery.")
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To: matthewrobertolson

Very neat the you are discerning whether you are called to the priesthood. I’ll keep you in my prayers. A few of my kids friends from college are now in seminaries.


36 posted on 09/14/2013 2:45:42 PM PDT by Chesterbelloc
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To: onthelookout777

I have spent a lot of time among Evangelicals, and (leaving aside the fact that faith is a work) I have never met a group of more works-oriented Christians - not Reformed, not Emergent, and certainly not RCs.


37 posted on 09/14/2013 2:50:11 PM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: matthewrobertolson
I think that what Jesus said while HE was ON the cross is absolute truth. He told the thief, The one who was a liar and thief and who knows what else, that surely today you shall be with me in heaven.

Can anyone tell me truthfully what ‘works’ the thief did to be saved, other in the thief's incomplete and most likely limited understanding of WHO Christ was and what HE did.

The obvious answer is that there were no ‘works’ and while the thief may not have possessed the absolute, complete, and perfect truth of who Christ is/was, the thief at the very least did ask Christ to remember him (the thief) when HE (CHRIST) came into HIS glory.

God's salvation through Christ is not dependent upon good works but on the willingness to believe in Christ based upon what we recognize as the Godly Spirit in Him.

It is not an absolutely perfect understanding of every minute detail of Who Christ is but rather an understanding that alone Christ was sent by God the Father to provide the propitiation for our sins on the cross and is the only one anointed by the father to do so.

Christ and Christ alone is the sole mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 1:15) and there is NO other mediator or co-redeemer possible.

Indeed at the end when everyone is judged, there will be two thrones the worlds entire population will appear before, One is the judgment seat of Christ which is for the believers in Him and the other is the Great White throne of God the Father which is reserved for those who reject Christ.

The first judgment seat is for reward while the Great White throne is for condemnation. As the bible states, ‘He that has the Son of God HAS life while he that hath NOT the Son of God hath not life but the wrath abideth on him’. Please note that the word abidith declares a present and remaining state of being which is this case is eternal banishment from Christ and the Father.

38 posted on 09/14/2013 2:58:54 PM PDT by dglang
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To: matthewrobertolson

I have read your catechism in its entirety, among a myriad of other Catholic works. I know precisely what Rome teaches. I also know that I live under the explicit anathemas of Trent.


39 posted on 09/14/2013 3:10:14 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS

Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness

/////////////
Excellent. This verse is surely the ultimate “gotcha” answer for all faith-plus-worksers.

I know, because I can read.

I can read, because I was taught to read by Catholic nuns, who knew how to teach.

However, I learned the way to salvation as an adult from Protestants!

Sola Fide!


40 posted on 09/14/2013 3:11:37 PM PDT by man_in_tx (Blowback (Faithfully farting twowards Mecca five times daily).)
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To: matthewrobertolson
And if one looks at verses 19-21 of the chapter, they will see that Christ said that those who “love darkness” and do “evil deeds” will not reach “the Light” (Heaven)....So, when reading the Bible, remember that true belief requires obedience and good works.

I would suggest a careful review of the text:

People love darkness rather than the light. Our works are evil. We cannot do good things simply because we don't want to do good things. As our Lord pointed out,

we do give good gifts to our children, but we are evil. It is beneficial for us to wake up to this fact rather then pretend it doesn't exist.

And we don't come to the light because our evil deeds will be shown to be what they are-evil. Not only will we not come to the light-we hate it. All our motives for doing things are self-centered and that's the way we like it.

Those of us who have come to the light have good works simply as evidence that we have come to God. Good works are for our reassurance and benefit that we have been saved.

As the scriptures clearly states:

Augustine correctly pointed out, we are saved to do good works. We don't do good works because we are saved. There is nothing we have that has not been given to us.

So no, it doesn't require obedience and good works. It requires repentance, submission to His word and prayer. God will produce the good works as He sees fit.

It may be best to read Augustine after reading the scriptures.

41 posted on 09/14/2013 3:23:38 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; matthewrobertolson

“Augustine correctly pointed out, we are saved to do good works. We don’t do good works because we are saved. There is nothing we have that has not been given to us.”


Indeed!

“When, therefore, He predestinated us, He foreknew His own work by which He makes us holy and immaculate. Whence the Pelagian error is rightly refuted by this testimony. “But we say,” say they, “that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work.” But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, “We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who works all things”. (Ephesians 1:11) He, therefore, works the beginning of our belief who works all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;” (Romans 11:29) and of which it is said: “Not of works, but of Him that calls” (Romans 9:12) (although He might have said, of Him that believes); and the election which the Lord signified when He said: “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” (John 15:16) For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe.” (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 38)

“All our good merits are only wrought in us by grace, and -when God crowns our merits, he crowns nothing but his own gifts. (Augustine, Letter 194)

“Have just men, then, no merits? Certainly they have, because they are righteous. But they were not made righteous by merits. For they are made righteous when they are justified, but as the apostle says, they are justified freely by his grace.” (Ibid)

“I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling.” (Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints)

“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)

“For who makes thee to differ, and what has thou that thou hast not received?” (1 Cor. iv. 7). Our merits therefore do not cause us to differ, but grace. For if it be merit, it is a debt; and if it be a debt, it is not gratuitous; and if it be not gratuitous, it is not grace. (Augustine, Sermon 293)


42 posted on 09/14/2013 3:36:43 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Chesterbelloc

Thank you! I will pray for you, too. :)


43 posted on 09/14/2013 3:37:17 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: CynicalBear; narses

Pot == meet kettle. How many times do non-Catholics say they “think” _____ and _____ is what Catholics belive?


44 posted on 09/14/2013 3:46:46 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: matthewrobertolson

Mathew
21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


45 posted on 09/14/2013 3:47:47 PM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

**as it gives us more opportunity to drive them all mad**

Hardly what I would call a Christian attitude.


46 posted on 09/14/2013 3:48:12 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ChoobacKY

The world, unfortunately, is not that simple.

What happens to the sins committed every day after OSAS procedures?


47 posted on 09/14/2013 3:50:00 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Remember, that Augustine did some writing before he converted.

You did not quote a source.


48 posted on 09/14/2013 3:52:11 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

“Hardly what I would call a Christian attitude”


Well, it’s not like I don’t desire that they repent. But, since the vast majority of FRomans are enemies of Christ, who even believe that Atheists can be saved as long as they perform good works, to drive them mad with the scripture is a worthy outcome, if they do not repent.


49 posted on 09/14/2013 3:52:50 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Salvation; Religion Moderator

“Remember, that Augustine did some writing before he converted.

You did not quote a source.”


We’ve been over this many times, and the RM has weighed in on them as well telling you so. Each quote is indeed sourced per Religious Forum guidelines. All you have to do is go either to newadvent.com, or any of the number of websites that have these writings, and look them up yourself, using the book and chapter numbers I have given. I tire of you making these false claims when the source is clearly present.

Secondly, these are all obviously writings from his Bishopric, and also during the controversy against Pelagius and the Semi-Pelagians. These are not his Pre-Christian/Manichean writings. Please get educated on Augustine before damning his writings. Charity calls you to at least that.


50 posted on 09/14/2013 3:56:58 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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