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Meet "Kosher Frank" (Pope says Church cannot engage in proselytism)
The Norvus Ordo Watch ^ | 9/29/2013 | Norvus Ordo Watch Blog

Posted on 10/07/2013 5:36:12 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans

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To: Phinneous

The Noahide nonsense has no basis in the scripture. Conversion in Biblical terms in the times before Christ never consisted of merely believing in a God, and following 7 laws. All of the pagan gods were condemned, and those who worship them with them. If anyone is to be saved, they therefore must put away idolatry and worship the true God. Why then would they not convert and take on the law of God too, if they have embraced the true God? And this embrace consisted of converting to the true church of God, not just in dry belief, but in active practice, its sacraments and signs, outside of which there is no salvation.

“And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.”
(Exo 12:48-49)

“Remember me, O Lord, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation; that I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance” (Ps. 106:4, 5)

Outside of “His nation,” there is nothing.


51 posted on 10/07/2013 8:09:27 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Happy to be part of His Nation.

Noahide is in the portion of Noah (the story of Noah in Genesis.) Jews just read it this past Sabbath-—as they have for the past 3,326 years.

It’s funny, a gentile has no other objective commandment from G-d but for these 7, and he, unbeknownst to him, probably observes at least 5 or 6 of them anyway by virtue of being part of a civil society (pre-1960 anyway.) So be a puny person of the Book....the Book of Genesis at least.


52 posted on 10/07/2013 8:31:19 PM PDT by Phinneous (Don't Care)
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To: Cicero
2.Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

And who is the seed to whom the promise is made? Paul in Galatians says it is Christ. Galatians 3:19.

The Old Covenant cannot work because man is not able to keep his part of the bargain. The promises are fulfilled only in Christ under the New Covenant so only if you are in Christ are you a recipient.

53 posted on 10/07/2013 8:33:16 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Cicero
but that grace can be given to virtuous pagans and religious Jews without their conscious knowledge.

I believe this. However, I do not believe this includes all Jews.

54 posted on 10/07/2013 8:34:52 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Phinneous

“It’s funny, a gentile has no other objective commandment from G-d but for these 7, and he,


I thought I was pretty clear that there was no “objective commandment from God” to Gentiles to follow that consist of them existing outside of his Church, whether in Old or New Testament times.

I don’t care if that’s what some random Rabbi told you. They have to. They’ve not had a temple in 2000 years, nor any word from God nor anything else. They also say all sorts of stupid stuff that should be ignored. For example,

From the Zohar, Chapter 6, Portion Noach “If Adam had not sinned, he would not have begotten any offspring.”

35.
Come and behold: if Adam had brought generations with him from the Garden of Eden, they would have lived for generations. And the light of the moon, WHICH REFERS TO THE LIGHT OF MALCHUT, would have never been darkened. And all would have lived forever; and not even the angels above could have stood before them and borne their light, brilliance and wisdom. As it is written: “In the image of Elohim He created him” (Beresheet 1:27). But because he was the cause of the sin, he had to leave the Garden of Eden and bear children outside. So his generations did not last BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT FIT.

Rabbi Chizkiyah then asked: How could they have begotten offspring there IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN? Had the Evil Inclination not been drawn down on him and he sinned, he would have dwelled alone in the world and would have not begotten any offspring! The same applies to Yisrael; had they not sinned by the golden calf and drawn upon themselves the Evil Inclination AFTER ACCEPTING THE TORAH, they also would have never borne any offspring, and no new generations would have come into the world. The main point is that the power of mating derives mainly from the Evil Inclination. So without the Evil Inclination there can be no offspring.

He said to him: Had Adam not sinned, he would not have borne offspring from the side of the Evil Inclination, but he would have borne them from the side of the Holy Spirit. But because he produced offspring only from the side of the Evil Inclination, all the offspring of mankind are born from the side of the Evil Inclination. They have no permanent existence therefore, because the Other Side has been mixed with them.

But if Adam had not sinned and had not been driven out of the Garden of Eden, he would have begotten offspring from the side of the Spirit of the holy of holies. And they would have been as the supreme angels, and lived generations upon generations as angels do above. THIS MEANS THAT THERE ARE TWO KINDS OF MATING: ONE IS THE SPIRITUAL MATING OF THE ANGELS; THE SECOND IS THE MATING OF YESOD FOR THE SOULS. THAT NEED FOR THE EVIL INCLINATION RELATES ONLY TO THE MATING OF YESOD AND NOT TO THE SPIRITUAL MATING THAT COMES FROM THE SIDE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. But because he sinned and begot children outside the Garden of Eden and he did not merit to beget them in the Garden of Eden, therefore they did not survive even only to take root in this world until Noah came and went into the ark. And from the ark all descending generations of mankind emerged and spread to all four corners of the earth.

I’d rather stick with the plain words of the scripture. Here’s the Gospel summarized:

Isa 53:1-12 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? (2) For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. (3) He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (4) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (5) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. (8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. (9) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. (10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (12) Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


55 posted on 10/07/2013 8:38:12 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I was ready to be done but you’re a fine foil. From your extensive posts I see the mania of your poor-translation, zero experience, and lack of Jewish upbringing to understand what you read.

So, when I said ‘trump.’ For argument’s sake... We define authenticity (having heard it from G-d Himself.) We define the tradition and interpretation, and we define that the Torah has seven laws incumbent upon all puny non-Jewish humans, even you. (unless you’re Jewish...then it is many, many more laws.)

So it’s like a fun childish argument— I say/you say. But I was first.

“I’d rather stick with....” Of course you would....it’s easier to go with what one feels/believe/would-rather-do. So now go ask a priest/pasture/your teacher what HE thinks, and show me the unbroken chain to the source. Can’t? Really? Now go ask JC what his rabbi taught him about that psalm, because there were 1000 years of expounding upon it before he even came along. To each his own. Be a good citizen....


56 posted on 10/07/2013 8:46:19 PM PDT by Phinneous (Don't Care)
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To: what's up; Cicero

“I believe this. However, I do not believe this includes all Jews.”


Even this, however, is a horrible error, though born from good intentions. But that doesn’t make it good, since it proposes, essentially, salvation by works without faith in Christ. These people are “virtuous,” and therefore they receive grace as a reward for this virtue.

Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But the error does not end there, because it proposes that this grace, or, rather, the Holy Spirit working on the hearts of men, still does not bring them to Christ. Yet no one can be saved by grace “without conscious knowledge,” since the scripture is quite clear that no one stays aloof from Jesus Christ who has been given to Him by the Father.

Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

“But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”
(Joh 6:64-65)

Notice that belief is equated with coming, therefore, all those given by the Son to the Father do believe. And anyone who does not believe is justly condemned, no matter how “virtuous” they seem to be. Neither is ignorance an excuse for their unbelief.

As the scripture says, all men are guilty before God, regardless of how much “light” they have received (Rom 3:19). As all men have received, to a certain extent, the law of God imprinted on their hearts, as well as the light of nature revealing the existence of God, therefore they are summarily rendered “without excuse,” (Rom 1:20, 2:14) and “as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law (Rom 2:12). And again, “for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God”(Rom 3:9-11).If any man is in the world who never heard the Gospel, it was by the infallible power of God, and not by random chance, that he was left so abandoned. And, therefore, it was one of those whom God chose not to have mercy on, in accordance with His almighty sovereignty (Rom 9:18-21). Salvation is through Jesus Christ only, and whoever does not believe in Him is damned already (John 14:16, 3:18).


57 posted on 10/07/2013 8:49:11 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
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To: Phinneous

“I was ready to be done but you’re a fine foil. “


Obviously you’ve done a lot to confirm my original thesis about you. You say you “don’t care,” but you’re more obsessed with the matter than I am.

As for your posts, they possess many arrogant bluffs, but no substance. So I’ll leave it at that.


58 posted on 10/07/2013 8:50:22 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
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To: Phinneous
Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

59 posted on 10/07/2013 8:50:55 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

60 posted on 10/07/2013 8:52:52 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Cicero

“44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,

“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

Acts 13


61 posted on 10/07/2013 8:55:28 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
But that doesn’t make it good, since it proposes, essentially, salvation by works without faith in Christ.

Abraham and all the righteous of the Old Testament did not know the historical Christ. But they still had true faith in God's righteousness and were saved.

In the same way, God is able to create a faith in His righteousness in whosoever He will. These people may not know the name "Jesus" but they turn from their own sin and cling to God's righteousness.

I've thought long and hard about this. I don't believe in cheap grace, but because of the Old Testament saints, I can believe that God can save anyone.

62 posted on 10/07/2013 8:57:10 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Why is it that many Protestants struggle with the basic understanding of words? Proselytism is different from evangelism.

Read ‘Common Witness and Proselytism,’ produced in 1970: http://berkleycenter.georgetown.edu/resources/publications/common-witness-and-proselytism-a-study-document

It was produced by the World Council of Churches and some Catholic representatives. It is based on the premise that that proselytism involves unworthy motives, methods and messages.

Pope Francis said: “Evangelization is not proselytism.”

And he said: “First: Paul has this attitude, because it was the attitude of Jesus. Second, Paul is aware that he must evangelize, not proselytize.”

““Paul teaches us this journey of evangelization, because Jesus did, because he is well aware that evangelization is not proselytizing: it is because he is sure of Jesus Christ and does not need to justify himself [or] to seek reasons to justify himself.”

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kathyschiffer/2013/10/proselytize-no-evangelize-yes-said-pope-francis/

So, it has to be asked: Why are so many Protestant anti-Catholics so wretchedly stupid as to not know the basic definition of words?


63 posted on 10/07/2013 9:00:52 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: what's up

“Abraham and all the righteous of the Old Testament did not know the historical Christ.”


They didn’t need to, they were all beneficiaries of the grace of God through His covenant.

“In the same way, God is able to create a faith in His righteousness in whosoever He will. These people may not know the name “Jesus” but they turn from their own sin and cling to God’s righteousness.”


A contradiction, since you can’t have faith in something you don’t actually have faith in. Thor is not Jesus, nor is even the “Logos” of ancient Plato. The scriptures I have presented also stand against you.

If one turns away from their sin, so it follows that they do not sin at all. But since all men sin, therefore they are judged, according to the scriptures I have mentioned.


64 posted on 10/07/2013 9:02:59 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
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To: vladimir998

“Why is it that many Protestants struggle with the basic understanding of words? Proselytism is different from evangelism.”


Why does the Pope reply to a question on Evangelism with a condemnation of proselytism if the two are completely different? And why does the Pope not then evangelize this particular Rabbi, or the atheist, but respects their beliefs as utterly equal?

“It was produced by the World Council of Churches”


The same one infiltrated by the KGB, the same folks who helped bring about Liberation theology? I think I’ll pass on it.


65 posted on 10/07/2013 9:07:34 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
They didn’t need to, they were all beneficiaries of the grace of God through His covenant.

However, the Old Covenant couldn't save. What differentiated the saved from the unsaved was faith in the righteousness of God which would turn out to be Christ.

since you can’t have faith in something you don’t actually have faith in.

One can have a knowledge of one's inadequacy and a need for God's righteousness to save one. It doesn't mean one understands all the implications...but faith can still be there.

66 posted on 10/07/2013 9:09:26 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Meet Shmulkey Gebrachts - Jewish kiruv (outreach) extraordinaire! He should talk to the Pope!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOEt0AXb5X0
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBMq2tERU7Y


67 posted on 10/07/2013 9:12:46 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (I’m not a Republican, I'm a Conservative! Pubbies haven't been conservative since before T.R.)
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To: Phinneous

I’d love to see your unbroken chain ...say to Abraham or perhaps Sammy Davis JR.


68 posted on 10/07/2013 9:14:28 PM PDT by aumrl (let's keep it real Conservatives)
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To: what's up

“However, the Old Covenant couldn’t save.”


And it didn’t have to, since the promise of God to Abraham was quite sufficient, which is the same covenant promise that predicates Christianity. But this promise was not made to unbelievers, but to believers only. There is no such thing as “unconscious” faith, and Christ was not kidding when he said “ for salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22).

“One can have a knowledge of one’s inadequacy and a need for God’s righteousness to save one.”


And yet no one can have knowledge of one’s inadequacy and need for God’s righteousness outside of the Holy Spirit, and no one has the Holy Spirit who does not confess Jesus Christ. And, again, the scriptures I have provided stand against you utterly.


69 posted on 10/07/2013 9:29:56 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
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To: aumrl

Here’s the first 40 generations or so....
(Chapter one, preface)

http://www.chabad.org/dailystudy/rambam.asp?tdate=1/10/2014&rambamChapters=3

Did you know that Sammy Davis Junior was an avid golfer? He had a great handicap too... he was a black, one-eyed Jew.


70 posted on 10/07/2013 9:32:40 PM PDT by Phinneous (Don't Care)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Really, I don’t care. I have occasional flare-ups of annoyance-care. It’s different.

Jews don’t care about anything in the ‘New’ Testament or any proof derived from it. You go to websites (or have at your fingertips ready-to-paste posts) to show aspects of Judaism you can’t understand ergo-— it’s wrong and you’re right.

I care to vote conservative, keep a free country—free for soap-boxes, and to try to keep the commandments given to me.

What’s a bluff by the way? Why post proofs you also won’t care about? From the original article I posted, it’s a proof to me and not to you—not even meant to prove anything to you. (except your seven commandments of course...from a book in your canon.)


71 posted on 10/07/2013 9:39:32 PM PDT by Phinneous (Don't Care)
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To: Phinneous

“Jews don’t care about anything in the ‘New’ Testament or any proof derived from it.”


I didn’t quote anything from the New Testament at you, but I can see how you can get confused.


72 posted on 10/07/2013 9:42:04 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Sorry....I was referring to your usurpation of a Psalm as “Gospel summarized.” I’ll replace the conversation with sleep now, as you’ve replaced one religion for another.


73 posted on 10/07/2013 9:46:00 PM PDT by Phinneous (Don't Care)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
And it didn’t have to, since the promise of God to Abraham was quite sufficient

But earlier you said the grace of God came through the Covenant. However, it was not the Covenant that saved; it was the promise. Your words:

"They didn’t need to, they were all beneficiaries of the grace of God through His covenant."

However, saving grace came not through the Old Covenant which was impossible to obey. Saving grace came through believing in a promise which did not contain the name of Jesus.

In the same way, those who believe in the promise might be saved today even though they may not have heard the name of Christ (however, I do believe this is rare). God can reveal Himself through nature or by whatever means He chooses.

74 posted on 10/07/2013 9:46:10 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
and no one has the Holy Spirit who does not confess Jesus Christ

David did not have the Holy Spirit?

75 posted on 10/07/2013 9:47:26 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Thanks for the entertainment today. These people will say just about anything without bothering to find the truth. Everything is provided in Scripture, and there's an answer to every question. But, this topic really takes the cake.

The Catholics say that proselytize or evangelize, they certainly aren't the same. The Jews are arrogantly claiming they hold all the truth. What none of them can seem to see is the truth found in Scripture. When Jesus came here, lived his life, was crucified dead and buried, was then resurrected and ascended to heaven, everything old passed away.

Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets. When he left this place, he sent his Holy Spirit to fill his people. The Holy Spirit has the keys to the kingdom, which is the word of God. Humans may have penned the words onto skins or paper, but it was by the inspiration from God through his Holy Spirit.

In John 1:1, we read "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."...

And then we come to John 3: 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

76 posted on 10/07/2013 9:51:14 PM PDT by WVKayaker ("The only place that the left hasn't placed the blame is on their agenda..." -Sarah Palin)
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Comment #77 Removed by Moderator

To: what's up

“David did not have the Holy Spirit?”


What kind of a trolling comment is that? He certainly had Him, and he certainly prophecized of Christ too! But, as I said before, they were all members of the church of God. Not infidels. The Non-Jews had no such thing, for “salvation is of the Jews.”


78 posted on 10/07/2013 10:09:12 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
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To: Cicero
They are always welcome to come over to the New Covenant. But they are not damned for not doing so, so long as they are faithful to the Old Covenant.
WRONG!!!!!!

Unless you confess that Jesus Christ is Lord you will NOT have eternal life.

Jesus Himself told the Jews that they MUST believe or die in their sins and be lost forever.

What you claim is heresy at best, at worse it is blasphemy.
79 posted on 10/07/2013 10:10:45 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: vladimir998

“Because he had a point to make. He made it. You missed it apparently.”


On the contrary, I got it! That’s the problem.

“He doesn’t. People are not interviewing him to be evangelized.”


He was living and celebrating Jewish feasts with a Rabbi who, when the Rabbi questioned him on evangelization, ruled it out. It wasn’t an interview.

Furthermore, this man was already his friend from Argentina. And the stated purpose was for social-gospel, lovey-dovey peace on Earth reasons, not for the peace and salvation of the soul through conversion.


80 posted on 10/07/2013 10:11:53 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
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To: Phinneous

“Sorry....I was referring to your usurpation of a Psalm as “Gospel summarized.””


It was Isaiah, but considering the link you gave me didn’t have any scripture in it, I suppose you’re a bit of a stranger to these things.


81 posted on 10/07/2013 10:16:50 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
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To: ebb tide
he Catholic Church is the New Israel; Outside of it, there is no salvation.

Excuse me?

The Catholic Church does NOT have a market on salvation, Christ does!

As for the Catholic Church, unless it changes many of it's practices and teachings, I dare say it will continue to lead many souls to HELL!
82 posted on 10/07/2013 10:16:50 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Phinneous

At least the last link, anyway. You gave me a few other links at first which I ignored, and only looked at the last one since you were getting haughty about it.


83 posted on 10/07/2013 10:18:35 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
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To: ebb tide
Unless by saying Catholic you mean catholic.

Capitalized is the Catholic Church based in Vatican City while lower case catholic means the universal Christian church as in the Christian church as a whole.

Is that what you meant by stating, "The Catholic Church is the New Israel; Outside of it, there is no salvation."?
84 posted on 10/07/2013 10:24:48 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Cicero; Greetings_Puny_Humans
Cicero to GPH : Are you saying that all Christians should hate Jews?

Probably?

85 posted on 10/07/2013 10:42:40 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Cicero
This comment is not aimed at you as I pretty much agree with what you are saying UNLESS the individual Jew has been convicted by The Holy Spirit or rather the Holy Spirit reveals to them Jesus Christ. However Romans ch 11 goes into better detail.

GOD has not given up on Israel and Israel is not lost beyond redemption. A blood Covenant can not be broken.

25I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters,£ so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ. 26And so all Israel will be saved. Do you remember what the prophets said about this? “A Deliverer will come from Jerusalem,£ and he will turn Israel£ from all ungodliness. 27And then I will keep my covenant with them and take away their sins.”£
28Many of the Jews are now enemies of the Good News. But this has been to your benefit, for God has given his gifts to you Gentiles. Yet the Jews are still his chosen people because of his promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 29For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. 30Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the Jews refused his mercy, God was merciful to you instead. 31And now, in the same way, the Jews are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you. But someday they,£ too, will share in God’s mercy. 32For God has imprisoned all people in their own disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

I take All Israel to mean all of the twelve tribes who obey the laws, have not rejected GOD, and are observant Jews.

86 posted on 10/07/2013 10:43:27 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; boatbums; metmom
GPH: So you’re okay with Jews going to hell since they do not believe in Jesus Christ?

Interesting, GPH, just to be clear, that is your viewpoint, right? That the old covenant with the Jews is broken and destroyed and that they will go to hell in your opinion?

87 posted on 10/07/2013 10:44:55 PM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“On the contrary, I got it! That’s the problem.”

Not if you’re posting this you didn’t.

“He was living and celebrating Jewish feasts with a Rabbi who, when the Rabbi questioned him on evangelization, ruled it out. It wasn’t an interview.”

And this is what was said according to the rabbi: “We come together without burying our identities. I spoke to him about evangelization, and he stated emphatically that the Catholic Church cannot engage in proselytism”, he said…’

So, the pope in no way condemned evangelism - which he has encouraged at every turn - but did condemn proselytism.

“Furthermore, this man was already his friend from Argentina.”

And? You don’t have any friends from back home?

“And the stated purpose was for social-gospel, lovey-dovey peace on Earth reasons, not for the peace and salvation of the soul through conversion.”

No. “He and the Pope are planning to travel together to the Holy Land next year. The Israeli and Palestinian authorities have invited Pope Francis, and the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew1, wants him to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the historic meeting of his predecessor, Athenagoras, with Paul VI in the Holy City.”

“We are dreaming of traveling together to Israel soon, and the Pope is working on this subject”, the Rabbi said. “I dream of embracing him at the Kotel, or Wailing Wall, and I will accompany him to Bethlehem, in the Palestinian territories. His presence can help a lot at this moment when the peace talks are starting again”, he added.


88 posted on 10/07/2013 10:45:11 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Phinneous

So tell me. I’m very curious as to what your interpretation of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 is?

In Isaiah 53, he wrote an account is so descriptive and accurate of the crucifiction of Jesus, that one would think he was present when it happened. Yet Isaiah wrote that chapter more than 700 years before Jesus was born.

Then there is Psalm 22. In verse 14 David mentions his bones all out of joint, yet that never happened at anytime during David’s life. It did happen to Jesus while he hung on the cross though.

I would appreciate a comment from you on these two entries of the Old Testament.


89 posted on 10/07/2013 10:49:21 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike

“In Isaiah 53, he wrote an account is so descriptive and accurate of the crucifiction of Jesus, “

crucifiction? crucifixion.


90 posted on 10/07/2013 11:04:22 PM PDT by Diapason
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To: Diapason; OneVike

Should have added that I hoped that cruciFICTION was the proverbial Freudian slip:-)


91 posted on 10/07/2013 11:07:22 PM PDT by Diapason
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To: cva66snipe
Wrong. Unless they believe in Jesus Christ they will be forever lost. Even Paul said as much when he was rejected by the Jews of Corinth.
Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, "Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles." Acts 18:5-6

As for the Scripture you use. It refers to Jews in the future during the tribulation. Not Jews who have denied him from the time He walked with us on through to the end times.

I agree that in the last days there will be 100,000 Israelites, 10,000 each tribe that will convert to Christianity by believing, and thus gain eternal salvation. Now that will only apply to those who believe in the name of Jesus and call upon His name.

However, Jesus Himself said that if you are ashamed to be identified with Him, then He will deny you to the father, but again Paul is speaking of those who will eventually believe.
92 posted on 10/07/2013 11:11:54 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Diapason

Yes, my spell checker changed it and I failed to catch it.


93 posted on 10/07/2013 11:12:47 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Bill Russell

What u said....but I let it go

And u beat me to it


94 posted on 10/07/2013 11:19:59 PM PDT by wardaddy (Short Change Hero...The Heavy...great song... a few years old but new to this old man)
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To: Cicero; Greetings_Puny_Humans
They are always welcome to come over to the New Covenant. But they are not damned for not doing so, so long as they are faithful to the Old Covenant. God repeatedly made that assurance in the Old Testament. “Forever” is forever. And St. Paul repeated that. Obviously Paul approved of conversion—he was converted himself. But he did not say that the Jews would all be damned if they remained faithful to the old Covenant.

Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said in Romans 11:

    I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:

    “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, as it is written:

    “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.” And David says:

    “May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.”

    Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

    I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

    If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

    Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

    I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

    “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

    As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God has NOT negated His covenant with the nation of Israel, but they are on the back burner, so to speak, while the Times of the Gentiles (the dispensation of grace) are being fulfilled. NO ONE can be saved unless they receive Jesus Christ as Savior, believing in Him to redeem them from their sins. The Jews, as a nation, rejected Jesus as the Messiah (as prophecied that they would) and because of this, we gentiles can be grafted into the branch of Christ. But, MANY Jews HAVE accepted Jesus as their messiah and they are saved along with gentiles by faith. Those who do not believe are condemned already because they believe not in the only begotten Son of God - Jew OR gentile.

95 posted on 10/07/2013 11:20:33 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Cronos; Greetings_Puny_Humans; metmom
GPH: So you’re okay with Jews going to hell since they do not believe in Jesus Christ?

Interesting, GPH, just to be clear, that is your viewpoint, right? That the old covenant with the Jews is broken and destroyed and that they will go to hell in your opinion?

Go back and reread what he said and why he said it. It has nothing to do with any broken covenants and everything to do with the false idea that Jews today can be saved who reject Jesus Christ. The article in the OP was about Catholics who are more than a little disappointed in Pope Francis who bans "proselytizing" and who seems to neglect his Jewish friend's salvation by approving of his Jewish faith that rejects God's Messiah, Jesus, and who seems to want an ecumenical kind of religion where Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc. all can meld into a one-world religion. Is THAT your viewpoint?

96 posted on 10/07/2013 11:29:01 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

Good points, and very accurate.


97 posted on 10/07/2013 11:29:29 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike
I expained what I meant pretty clear. Now look at the passage you posted

Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, "Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles." Acts 18:5-6

Paul had preached to them had he not? A man full of The Holy Spirit was he not? Those Paul spoke of in the passage you posted had heard The Gospel preached to them and rejected it.

Here is the context of the passages you posted. Paul was preaching to them in the synagogue. OK so how many Priest, Pastors, Preachers, etc are going into synagogues preaching The Gospel these days?

1Then Paul left Athens and went to Corinth.£ 2There he became acquainted with a Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, who had recently arrived from Italy with his wife, Priscilla. They had been expelled from Italy as a result of Claudius Caesar’s order to deport all Jews from Rome. 3Paul lived and worked with them, for they were tentmakers£ just as he was. 4Each Sabbath found Paul at the synagogue, trying to convince the Jews and Greeks alike. 5And after Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul spent his full time preaching and testifying to the Jews, telling them, “The Messiah you are looking for is Jesus.” 6But when the Jews opposed him and insulted him, Paul shook the dust from his robe and said, “Your blood be upon your own heads—I am innocent. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

They heard they rejected or rather some did but not all rejected his message.

7After that he stayed with Titius Justus, a Gentile who worshiped God and lived next door to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, and all his household believed in the Lord. Many others in Corinth also became believers and were baptized. 9One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision and told him, “Don’t be afraid! Speak out! Don’t be silent! 10For I am with you, and no one will harm you because many people here in this city belong to me.” 11So Paul stayed there for the next year and a half, teaching the word of God.

Many obeservant Jews both then and today believe it or not have not heard The Gospel. Now that being the case would they still not be under the Covenant of Israel until such a time they have heard The Gospel and actually rejected it? When will The Gospel be preached to them? Any idea? :>}

98 posted on 10/07/2013 11:50:39 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe
To begin with, in today's world you cannot escape the truth of the Gospel. It is all around us, yet many would rather ignore what they hear because they do not have a heart to understand nor an ear to hear.

Plus, ignorance of the Jewish teachers is no excuse. All Jewish Teachers who lived from the time of the prophets on through when Christ walked on the earth and even to this day have known about Christ because the scriptures speak loudly about Him. It's just that they refused to teach their people the truth.

Just like those who belong to a false Christian organization like the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses etc. etc. They are lost because they were taught lies by their teachers. They had the chance to believe, but they were fed lies. They are lost, but it will be much worse for those who knew the truth yet taught lies, than it will be for those who heard the lies and believed them and thus died in ignorance.

Those who lived in places that have never ever had the Gospel preached to them, yet they died, like the America's before the settlers arrived, or in the middle of the forest jungles of South America, or the orient or Africa before missionaries arrived could be spared if their hearts are pure I guess.

When considering such matters, I am reminded of Ecclesiastes 3:11 where Solomon wrote
"He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts".
Have you ever read the book, "Eternity In Their Hearts"? It is a book written in 1981 by, Don Richardson.

The premise of his book is that God has prepared the hearts of all people to accept the Gospel. Some will accept it when they hear it, while some will reject it out of love for the world.

Richardson uses compelling stories from many different cultures to show how the concept of a supreme God has existed for centuries in hundreds of cultures throughout the world. From the jungles of Burma to small tribes in the middle of the Rain Forest of South America. All civilizations have tales passed from generation to generation that has prepared them for the gospel. Just like every culture has some form of the story of the flood, they also have some form of the truth, it's just that through time they have failed to properly pass it on to their descendants and it got a bit skewed.

Now whether or not there were individuals throughout history from places never reached by the Gospel, yet they were like Job who was a Godly man, yet not from Abraham's stock and we all know he was a great servant of God.

However, you specifically speak of the Jews, and the truth is in the scriptures that they have, yet would rather ignore them. Jesus told them,
"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me".
You can not have it both ways. Either you are God's chosen and you have the truth and are ignoring it, or you are not God's chosen and He never told you about His coming. In that case maybe one could be saved without hearing the Gospel. As I said though, the Jews have the truth, and reject it. Thus the lord says he will reject all who reject him.

You cannot reject the cornerstone that the Church is built upon and expect to get a mulligan when you come face to face with Him on judgment day.


99 posted on 10/08/2013 1:01:49 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Cicero; Greetings_Puny_Humans
Christianity fulfilled the promises made to Israel. It did not supersede them. Judaism still remains a religion to which God is faithful—so long as they are faithful to Him. They [the Jews] are always welcome to come over to the New Covenant. But they are not damned for not doing so, so long as they are faithful to the Old Covenant.

That is simply an untenable fantasy. According to Jesus, He did not come to make Jews better Jews apart from faith in Him, but reproved the Jews because they would not come to Him.

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." (John 5:39-40)

And He said when the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, it is essentially because they do not believe on Him.

"Of sin, because they believe not on me;" (John 16:9)

And when Paul said "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved, " (Romans 10:1) He was referring to devout Jews who,

"have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." (Romans 10:2-4)

If the apostles had listened to you, they could have saved themselves a lot of suffering.

"And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased." (Galatians 5:11)

100 posted on 10/08/2013 2:15:21 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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