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There is something strange going on in the Vatican
LifeSiteNews ^ | Mon Oct 07, 2013 | Hilary White, Rome Correspondent

Posted on 10/09/2013 8:25:55 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM

There is something strange going on in the Vatican

by Hilary White, Rome Correspondent



TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: papacy; pope; popefrancis; vatican
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: oh8eleven

Prayer and fasting helps one’s soul, and the souls for whom they pray. I haven’t avoided your question.


101 posted on 10/09/2013 4:07:07 PM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: BlueDragon

BlueDragon:

I don’t see many Catholic here consistently starting posts that hammer Protestants. On the other hand, I often do see it from the FR Protestants of a certain stripe.

For the record, I have never started a thread that represents any branch of Protestantism and what it professes. For the record, It would be impossible for me to track down all the competing doctrines at the “Confessional or Institutional level” from all the competing Protestant groups. I have, at times, not as frequent as I use to, corrected the constant misrepresentation of Catholic Doctrine which is a much different context than what you are hinting at with your post.

I don’t know how far back post histories go but anyone who has ever been in a thread with me, if they are honest, can confirm that I have never started a thread about a certain Protestant groups doctrine. Period.


102 posted on 10/09/2013 7:20:54 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
Telling others they are going to Hell because of their faith is the epitome of modern day definitions of proselytism.

It's also evangelizing...The bible isn't all a one side lovey dovey book...We have to teach the 'whole' counsel of God, and that includes teaching about hell...

103 posted on 10/09/2013 7:40:15 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool
Telling fellow committed Christians they are going to Hell may be a lot of things, but it ain't evangelizing.
104 posted on 10/09/2013 7:47:55 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

From the Syllabus of Errors, Pope Pius IX, Dec. 8, 1864:

15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. (Indifferentism and False Tolerance)


105 posted on 10/09/2013 8:32:44 PM PDT by nanetteclaret (Unreconstructed "Elderly Kooky Type" Catholic Texan)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
Please ping all those FReeper Catholics who have been defending the pope's statements or arguing with the rest of us that he's being misquoted by anti-Catholic news media and us “Catholic-hating” Protestants.
106 posted on 10/10/2013 12:59:09 AM PDT by HarleyD (...one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.)
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To: apillar

It’s not the toes he steps on I worry about; the man seems to be questionable regarding Catholicism IMO.


107 posted on 10/10/2013 1:06:01 AM PDT by A CA Guy ( God Bless America, God Bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: yldstrk; boatbums; metmom; jodyel; smvoice; HarleyD
"cos the Bible tells me so"

Interesting. You seem to be sitting in judgment of the RCC's selection of a "pope" and determining that the Bible tells you everything is going to turn out all right, irrespective of what they have done. Such a position would imply that you have a personal interpretation of the Bible which overrides Rome, since Rome claims to control interpretation.

While you are using the same logic most biblicists use to evaluate Rome, you are certainly in conflict with the mother ship. They claim to have control over the interpretation of that Bible and would argue that they could not possibly make a mistake in selection. But, here you are saying the Bible trumps Rome...hmmm. Welcome to reality.

108 posted on 10/10/2013 8:05:06 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; CynicalBear; ...
Sala Stampa (Holy See Press Office)

Eh?

This could be fun.

109 posted on 10/10/2013 8:13:33 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Dutchboy88

Boy, let’s welcome you to reality: the Bible is of the Church, the Church not springing from the Bible, difference between Catholics and Protestors


110 posted on 10/10/2013 8:13:44 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: metmom

Sounds like a lot of Catholics are getting the heeby jeebys.


111 posted on 10/10/2013 8:18:56 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: yldstrk

Yet, according to you the so-called “Church” of Rome may have made a mistake? And, you find that everything will be okay based upon the Bible...which they claim to control? So, they make a mistake you personally identify, but take comfort in an interpretation they don’t condone? I’m getting the popcorn.


112 posted on 10/10/2013 8:51:41 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
Evangelism: When I try to convert you.

Proselytism: When you try to convert me.

Of course, Catholics engage in neither. Else they all might as well move to trailer parks.

113 posted on 10/10/2013 9:21:45 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
Simply defending the Catholic Faith, especially in the face of blatant lies and distortions, is basic evangelization, apologetics and witnessing.

So that's what converted the Roman world, huh? Good to know none of those apostles actually went anywhere and challenged anyone.

114 posted on 10/10/2013 9:26:15 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: CTrent1564
proselytizing is . . . about scoreing points of getting someone to come to “my religion”

Evangelization is seen as revealing Christ by word and deed and let them encounter him thru his Bride the Church

In other words, "evangelization" is allowing people to come to you and ask to join, like a Masonic lodge.

So that's what Paul was doing in Athens.

115 posted on 10/10/2013 9:32:43 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM; aMorePerfectUnion
The Pope is making a distinction between proselytizing and evangelizing. Its a distinction lost on most.

He is a Jesuit. No?

This form of parsing is Jesuitical.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
116 posted on 10/10/2013 9:41:40 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM; nanetteclaret
Telling fellow committed Christians they are going to Hell may be a lot of things, but it ain't evangelizing.

Oh, I get it now. The trouble with Francis is that he's universalist outside chrstianity whereas Catholicism is universalist within chrstianity . . . right?

The Catholic Church has never at any time tried to convert non-Catholic chrstians. All you have to do is be "committed." Catholics don't try to convert Fundamentalist Protestants because the little dears are genetically defective (through no fault of their own; it's not their fault their parents were siblings) and could never comprehend so profound and intellectual religion as Catholicism. So G-d in his graciousness has provided defective, stupid churches for defective, stupid people who can never aspire to "the fullness of truth" because they're too stupid and inbred to believe in evolution and Biblical criticism. Catholics don't bother these unfortunate cretins by trying to convert them, but they will defend their magnificent yet incomprehensible doctrines should the morons, through their ignorance and their mistaken belief in "absolute truth," try to "correct" them.

Catholicism is for Italians, Irish, French, Hispanics, Poles, Hungarians, Nigerians, Vietnamese, and Filipinos. Inbred rednecks need not apply and need not expect any "evangelization," because they're "sincere chrstians," which is all that is required.

Hmm. Seems to me that the Catholic Church didn't always teach this. But then, what do I know? After all, I'm just an inbred moron with no genes from the Special, Chosen Catholic Nations.

117 posted on 10/10/2013 9:53:14 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: CTrent1564
I don’t see many Catholic here consistently starting posts that hammer Protestants. On the other hand, I often do see it from the FR Protestants of a certain stripe.

Let's see . . . I've seen Catholics refer to "fundies" (including you yourself), "snake-handlers," "Bible-thumpers," "Bible-bangers," "Bible-toters," and "brain dead bibliolators." I have never seen Protestants refer to Catholics as mackerel snappers" or "bead fumblers," though I have seen a few references to "Papists" and "Romanists."

Catholics may not engage in dialogue about doctrines, but they rule when it comes to ethno-cultural slurs.

118 posted on 10/10/2013 9:57:34 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I don’t think you understood my post. It is from the “Syllabus of ERRORS.” Pope Pius IX is listing all the errors of his time (which have continued up through our own time) and the one I posted was in the section on Indifferentism and False Tolerance. This error is pretty much what Pope Francis said the other day about everyone trying to find the “good.” or whatever. Ergo, the Pope is spouting Heresy.

He speaks as if he has never read one Encyclical in his life. Jesuits are supposed to be educated, but he gives no evidence of having studied any of the writings of previous Popes.

P.S. I had to read your post three times in order to wade through your emotional invective to try to figure out what you were trying to say. I’m still not sure I understood you. Next time, you might want to be less emotional and thus more succinct.


119 posted on 10/10/2013 10:08:34 AM PDT by nanetteclaret (Unreconstructed "Elderly Kooky Type" Catholic Texan)
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It seems from this post and all the replies that Francis has indeed turned something upside down, much as John XXIII did.

I’m sure his goal is to save souls. He is simply starting from a different point. It seems to me that he truly believes in natural law, and that if you appeal to it in anyone, that person will respond—even if he is an atheist.

If you start arguing, or judging, you are off on the wrong foot.

Basically, he is saying our approach to the nonbeliever should be “Namas te,” “I see the God within you.” If this resonates, the hearer then has two choices: to respond to what he feels or knows is the true God within him, or to use the words as an excuse to do whatever he wants.

Those who make the first choice have been reached in a way that all the arguing in the world cannot accomplish.

We all have God within us. The job is to get through all the weeds and distractions to find it, in ourselves and possibly, with the grace of God, in others.


120 posted on 10/10/2013 10:16:14 AM PDT by firebrand (O)
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To: nanetteclaret
I don’t think you understood my post. It is from the “Syllabus of ERRORS.” Pope Pius IX is listing all the errors of his time (which have continued up through our own time) and the one I posted was in the section on Indifferentism and False Tolerance. This error is pretty much what Pope Francis said the other day about everyone trying to find the “good.” or whatever. Ergo, the Pope is spouting Heresy. He speaks as if he has never read one Encyclical in his life. Jesuits are supposed to be educated, but he gives no evidence of having studied any of the writings of previous Popes.

Interesting perspective on things.

121 posted on 10/10/2013 10:23:21 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Just a common, ordinary, simple savior of America's destiny.)
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To: Alex Murphy

I am in the middle of reading quite a few encyclicals. So far, I have read “Quo Primum,” “Cum Ex Apostolatus Officio,” “In Eminenti Apostolatus Specula,” 38 of the 58 sections of “Pascendi Dominici Gregis,” “Apostolicae Curae,” “Mirari Vos,” “Quanta Cura,” and “Mediator Dei.” I have 13 to go, at least for now. When one actually reads - and studies - the Encylicals, one realizes that everything since Vatican II has been/is heresy. It is difficult to comprehend, but one must not resort to intellectual dishonesty in order to make excuses. I trust that Jesus will keep at least a remnant of the Church pure as He promised St. Peter when He gave Him the Keys.


122 posted on 10/10/2013 10:49:10 AM PDT by nanetteclaret (Unreconstructed "Elderly Kooky Type" Catholic Texan)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
Is Francis the last pope: Peter the Roman
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

123 posted on 10/10/2013 10:52:02 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: nanetteclaret
When one actually reads - and studies - the Encylicals, one realizes that everything since Vatican II has been/is heresy. It is difficult to comprehend, but one must not resort to intellectual dishonesty in order to make excuses. I trust that Jesus will keep at least a remnant of the Church pure as He promised St. Peter when He gave Him the Keys.

IMO it's imprecise to speak of "a remnant of the church". The remnant IMO is the church. The larger portion are unredeemed pretenders who dwelt within the church, according to the apostle John (1 John 2:19).

124 posted on 10/10/2013 10:59:42 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Just a common, ordinary, simple savior of America's destiny.)
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To: onedoug
If the little islamist, planned parenthood and the homosexual lobby are praising the Pope, there is definitely a very serious problem at the Vatican.

My thoughts exactly.

125 posted on 10/10/2013 11:56:19 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM; Dutchboy88
Telling others they are going to Hell because of their faith is the epitome of modern day definitions of proselytism.

I'll keep that in mind next time some Catholic tells me I'm headed there.

126 posted on 10/10/2013 11:57:31 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: oh8eleven; mlizzy
You didn't answer my question. How is prayer, fasting and "sacrifice" going to help? How did it help the 50 million who died in WWII? Maybe they should have fasted more ...

Mock away.

Jesus fasted.

HE taught that WHEN we fast, as if He expected it to be the typical practice of His followers.

FWIW, fasting works.

127 posted on 10/10/2013 12:02:45 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Iscool
It's also evangelizing...The bible isn't all a one side lovey dovey book...We have to teach the 'whole' counsel of God, and that includes teaching about hell...

Jesus taught about hell. HE warned people to believe or perish.

But it wasn't a threat, it was a warning.

It would be unconscionable to not warn people of hell for rejecting Jesus.

128 posted on 10/10/2013 12:05:30 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Evangelism: When I try to convert you.

Proselytism: When you try to convert me.

It just depends on how offended the person being evangelized is feeling.

129 posted on 10/10/2013 12:07:04 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

*snicker*


130 posted on 10/10/2013 12:08:13 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: firebrand
We all have God within us. The job is to get through all the weeds and distractions to find it, in ourselves and possibly, with the grace of God, in others.

No we don't. That's the lie of the enemy. *You shall be as gods....*.

Only those who are believers and have Christ dwelling in their hearts through faith, who are the temple of the Holy Spirit, have God in them.

131 posted on 10/10/2013 12:11:00 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: metmom
FWIW, fasting works.
HTH do you know? What's your proof?
And I'm not mocking ... century upon century of human suffering (none worse than the 20th) and according to you, all we gotta' do is fast and sacrifice and things will get better.
Well gooooolly, I guess all those millions upon millions who died agonizing deaths never thought of that.
Given all that, the only conclusion I can come to is that if there is a Creator, it created the universe and has been hands off ever since.
132 posted on 10/10/2013 12:18:10 PM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: firebrand
Basically, he is saying our approach to the nonbeliever should be “Namas te,” “I see the God within you.” If this resonates, the hearer then has two choices: to respond to what he feels or knows is the true God within him, or to use the words as an excuse to do whatever he wants.

The bolded is modernism. And yes, I agree that this is what Francis is saying....heresy. From Pascendi Dominici Gregis (Pope Pius X, 1907):

14. Thus far, Venerable Brethren, We have considered the Modernist as a philosopher. Now if We proceed to consider him as a believer, and seek to know how the believer, according to Modernism, is marked off from the philosopher, it must be observed that, although the philosopher recognizes the reality of the divine as the object of faith, still this reality is not to be found by him but in the heart of the believer, as an object of feeling and affirmation, and therefore confined within the sphere of phenomena; but the question as to whether in itself it exists outside that feeling and affirmation is one which the philosopher passes over and neglects. For the Modernist believer, on the contrary, it is an established and certain fact that the reality of the divine does really exist in itself and quite independently of the person who believes in it. If you ask on what foundation this assertion of the believer rests, he answers: In the personal experience of the individual. On this head the Modernists differ from the Rationalists only to fall into the views of the Protestants and pseudo-mystics. The following is their manner of stating the question: In the religious sense one must recognize a kind of intuition of the heart which puts man in immediate contact with the reality of God, and infuses such a persuasion of God's existence and His action both within and without man as far to exceed any scientific conviction. They assert, therefore, the existence of a real experience, and one of a kind that surpasses all rational experience. If this experience is denied by some, like the Rationalists, they say that this arises from the fact that such persons are unwilling to put themselves in the moral state necessary to produce it. It is this experience which makes the person who acquires it to be properly and truly a believer.

133 posted on 10/10/2013 1:36:07 PM PDT by piusv
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To: nanetteclaret; Zionist Conspirator

I still find myself making similar mistakes when reading errors. I have to remind myself that the writer (ie.Pope) is not agreeing with the statement, but pointing it out and calling it heresy.


134 posted on 10/10/2013 1:38:36 PM PDT by piusv
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To: nanetteclaret

LOL @ Paul VI abolishing the Oath Against Modernism.


135 posted on 10/10/2013 1:47:12 PM PDT by piusv
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To: metmom

Maybe the Pope longs for the good old days when the Catholic church could evangelize with sword and convert those evil proselyting heretics.


136 posted on 10/10/2013 2:05:06 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: Dutchboy88

eh? you are not making sense


137 posted on 10/10/2013 2:12:27 PM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: piusv

What exactly were you laughing at?

Have you ever read the “Oath Against Modernism?” Dear Pope St. Pius X was trying to root it out of seminaries, schools, from the pulpit, out of dioceses, and out of the Vatican. It covered everyone who had any influence. The fact that Pope Paul VI did away with people having to take the Oath is evidence that a) he didn’t care if Modernism infected the Church and b) probably crossed his fingers when he signed the Oath himself.


138 posted on 10/10/2013 2:14:26 PM PDT by nanetteclaret (Unreconstructed "Elderly Kooky Type" Catholic Texan)
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To: oh8eleven

There’s a huge difference between me choosing to fast as part of prayer, and someone being starved to death.

Those millions who died from being starved to death, did not choose to fast.

If you cannot distinguish between the two, you have bigger issues than you realize.


139 posted on 10/10/2013 2:15:22 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: nanetteclaret

Nanette, I have been agreeing with you. Why would you take the LOL in a negative fashion? I’m laughing at the absurdity of Paul VI abolishing this oath...and then proceeding to allow modernism into the Church.....directly and indirectly.


140 posted on 10/10/2013 2:17:33 PM PDT by piusv
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To: piusv

I thought so, but it’s just too tragic to laugh about. (I thought you were laughing because I said, “surprise, surprise” in my best Gomer Pyle voice.)


141 posted on 10/10/2013 2:19:13 PM PDT by nanetteclaret (Unreconstructed "Elderly Kooky Type" Catholic Texan)
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To: metmom

Those were my thoughts when I read that also. Fasting and being starved are rather different.


142 posted on 10/10/2013 2:22:14 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: nanetteclaret

Sometimes I need to laugh otherwise I’d cry.

Some crazy times we’re in and it’s even sadder that so many are blind to it.


143 posted on 10/10/2013 2:23:48 PM PDT by piusv
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To: yldstrk

Re-read the posts...it will come to you.


144 posted on 10/10/2013 2:45:31 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: firebrand
We all have God within us.

I'm assuming you don't really understand 'God within us'...

Those of us who have God in us have no need nor no desire to go chasing after your Eucharist...Plus it would be completely pointless...

And having God in you is a one time deal...We don't have to go any where for another dose...

145 posted on 10/10/2013 2:55:46 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Zionist Conspirator:

I have used the term Fundie you are correct and Bible Thumpers as well. I will fully disclose that I have used those terms, but!, and that is the point, only in the context of a thread started by said Protestant fundies that set out to distort and misrepresent what Catholicism teaches, which is clearly laid out in the Catechism of the Catholic CHurch. It is not like the Catholic CHurch hides its Doctrine at the Institutional level. So the substance of my post remains, I have, as I said in the previous post never started a thread that attempts to explain any of the various competing Protestant groups teachings at the “Confessional or Institutional level”, i.e. I don’t try to represent what Reformed-Protestantism teaches, the Southern Baptist Convetion teaches, the United Methodist, the Pentecostals, in all their various stripes, etc, etc, etc.

So again, when I have used the term Fundie or bible-thumper, is has only been in the context of a thread started by said protestants refered to above and not, as I have stated in my previous post, and in this post, a thread started out by me that attempts to represent said Protestant groups and then after individual protestants come in and reply in a thread, I respond with fundie/bible thumper.

And for the record, Fundie does have any ethnic connotations nor does bible-thumper. Romanist, on the other hand, clearly has ethnic implications given that Rome is a city in Italy. Papist, I would concede, has no ethnic implications given that the last 3 popes are all of different ethnic background, Polish, Bavarian-German, and and Argentinian from Italian ancesty.


146 posted on 10/10/2013 2:58:31 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: CTrent1564

edit to previous post, “Fundie does not have...


147 posted on 10/10/2013 3:00:20 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: Dutchboy88

nah


148 posted on 10/10/2013 3:26:11 PM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: yldstrk
"No one knows for sure yet. He may be a great saint, he may be an anti-pope. Only time will tell."

Well, here is a clue. You agreed with the good doctor's remark (above) that it may be possible your organization has selected the wrong guy as "pope". Apparently, they have done so in the past. (Anti-popes?)

But, you claimed that God was still in control and everything would be hunky-dory.

I asked how you knew this, when the very organization which claimed to be infallable appointed the guy who speaks infallably ex-cathedra could not possibly make a mistake.

You said, the Bible.

I said, that must be YOPIOS because that is the same criteria believing Christians use to evaluate Rome...and we too find it wanting. You are dangerously close to being a "protestor".

Now I say, "Time to swim the Tiber the other direction...if you can."

149 posted on 10/10/2013 3:45:25 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

YOPIOS

eh?


150 posted on 10/10/2013 4:04:59 PM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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