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Questions for “Bible Christians” that they can’t answer - Part 1
Catholic Convert ^ | October 25, 2013 | David Palm and Steve Ray

Posted on 10/26/2013 6:56:10 AM PDT by NYer

There are 38 questions + a few bonus questions. I have split them into two separate posts of 20 and 18 + bonus questions. Are you ready?

1. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?

2. Other than the specific command to John to pen the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?

3. Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?

4. Some Protestants claim that Jesus condemned all oral tradition (e.g., Matt 15:3, 6; Mark 7:813). If so, why does He bind His listeners to oral tradition by telling them to obey the scribes and Pharisees when they “sit on Moses’ seat” (Matt 23:2)?

5. Some Protestants claim that St. Paul condemned all oral tradition (Col 2:8). If so, why does he tell the Thessalonians to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thes 2:15) and praises the Corinthians because they “hold firmly to the traditions” (1 Cor 11:2)?

(And why does the Protestant NIV change the word “tradition” to “teaching”?)

6. If the authors of the New Testament believed in sola Scriptura, why did they sometimes draw on oral Tradition as authoritative and as God’s Word (Matt 2:23; 23:2; 1 Cor 10:4; 1 Pet 3:19; Jude 9, 14 15)?

7. Where in the Bible is God’s Word restricted only to what is written down?

8. How do we know who wrote the books that we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Hebrews, and 1, 2, and 3 John?

9. On what authority, or on what principle, would we accept as Scripture books that we know were not written by one of the twelve apostles?

10. Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible? (e.g., Is the Bible’s Table of Contents inspired?)

11. How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the individual books of the New Testament are inspired, even when they make no claim to be inspired?

12. How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the letters of St. Paul, who wrote to first- century congregations and individuals, are meant to be read by us as Scripture 2000 years later?

13. Where does the Bible claim to be the sole authority for Christians in matters of faith and morals?

14. Most of the books of the New Testament were written to address very specific problems in the early Church, and none of them are a systematic presentation of Christian faith and theology. On what biblical basis do Protestants think that everything that the apostles taught is captured in the New Testament writings?

15. If the books of the New Testament are “self-authenticating” through the ministry of the Holy Spirit to each individual, then why was there confusion in the early Church over which books were inspired, with some books being rejected by the majority?

16. If the meaning of the Bible is so clear—so easily interpreted—and if the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it for themselves, then why are there over 33,000 Protestant denominations, and millions of individual Protestants, all interpreting the Bible differently?

17. Who may authoritatively arbitrate between Christians who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit into mutually contradictory interpretations of the Bible?

18. Since each Protestant must admit that his or her interpretation is fallible, how can any Protestant in good conscience call anything heresy or bind another Christian to a particular belief?

19. Protestants usually claim that they all agree “on the important things.” Who is able to decide authoritatively what is important in the Christian faith and what is not?

20. How did the early Church evangelize and overthrow the Roman Empire, survive and prosper almost 350 years, without knowing for sure which books belong in the canon of Scripture?


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: antiprotestantrant; bible; romancatholicism; sectarianturmoil
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To: GreyFriar
And thus you see no usefulness and/or reject of any and/or all writings of followers of Jesus, other than what was agreed to in the Councils of Nicaea as the writings to be declared “the New Testament?”

I hold to no authoritative council, creed, or canon. That isn't to say I don't find them useful, but neither do I esteem them above or anywhere equal to the Word of YHWH. Thus my absolute agreement with sola-scriptura as a principle thing. Sola does not mean 'only'. it means 'above'.

You would do well to understand what 'tradition' means to a disciple of an Hebrew Rabbi... Then you would understand why your tradition can only be false. Like the liberals who cannot win an argument, the Roman church is keen to redefine terms to her own advantage.

101 posted on 10/26/2013 11:07:25 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: GeronL
All of those churches planted by the Apostles were independent of each other from everything I can find.

The term 'church' provides a differentiation which shouldn't be there. Better translated as 'assembly' or 'congregation', or 'discipleship'... Then re-read the OT, and you will be surprised how long the 'Church' has been around.

But yes, you are right - the churches were congregational in governance... Something pretty close to how the SBA govern themselves, I would suppose.

102 posted on 10/26/2013 11:14:20 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Salvation
“Walking in darkness means being overly pleased with ourselves, believing that we do not need salvation. That is darkness! When we continue on this road of darkness, it is not easy to turn back. ~Pope Francis

We are aware of the plight of those trapped in the chains of the Roman church, and we're pullin' for ya' ; )

103 posted on 10/26/2013 11:16:56 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
Your definition of Church does not correspond to that of the early Christians.

Since the only definition of the Early Church is that contained in the NT, with no other opinion extant until hundreds of years later, I can assure you that my definition is quite sound.

104 posted on 10/26/2013 11:19:35 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

lol

I’m very independent. The idea that “church” means anything more than an assembly or congregation is pretty foreign to me.


105 posted on 10/26/2013 11:20:17 AM PDT by GeronL
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To: Brian Kopp DPM; 50sDad

“Where is this word, “trinity,” in the Bible? If its not in the Bible, why do you believe it?”


Because the scripture teaches it, and thus we sum up that teaching in the word “Trinity.”

Are you so ignorant that you don’t even know what the Bible teaches about the nature of God?


106 posted on 10/26/2013 11:24:59 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: NYer

“1. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book? “

Must have been when Jesus was ascending up into Heaven, he must have shouted down “be sure to read my book”. /major sarc Although he never wrote anything, except into dirt, and there are no accounts of him saying he would leave a book.


107 posted on 10/26/2013 11:26:09 AM PDT by Morgana (Always a bit of truth in dark humor.)
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To: GreyFriar; roamer_1; All

“The Roman Catholic Church has kept the lineal knowledge and studied the “Doctors of the Church””


Like this one?

Cyril of Jerusalem on Sola Scriptura:

“Have thou ever in your mind this seal, which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures. For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning , but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, Cat. Lecture 4, Ch. 17)

How about these?

Augustine on irresistible grace, final perseverance, limited atonement, and whatever else I missed which he touches on here:

“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)

“I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling.” (Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints)

“And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for “He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, who “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, not of works, but, of future works, and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, God forbid; that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God’s doing this, and says: “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” “ (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace.)

“But that world which God is in Christ reconciling unto Himself, which is saved by Christ, and has all its sins freely pardoned by Christ, has been chosen out of the world that is hostile, condemned, and defiled. For out of that mass, which has all perished in Adam, are formed the vessels of mercy, whereof that world of reconciliation is composed, that is hated by the world which belongeth to the vessels of wrath that are formed out of the same mass and fitted to destruction. Finally, after saying, “If ye were of the world, the world would love its own,” He immediately added, “But because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” And so these men were themselves also of that world, and, that they might no longer be of it, were chosen out of it, through no merit of their own, for no good works of theirs had preceded; and not by nature, which through free-will had become totally corrupted at its source: but gratuitously, that is, of actual grace. For He who chose the world out of the world, effected for Himself, instead of finding, what He should choose: for “there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace. And if by grace,” he adds, “then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.”” (Tractates on the Gospel of John, 15:17-19)

John Chrysostom on Sola Fide

“By what law? Of works? Nay, but by the law of faith. See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the law of faith? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.” (Homily 7 on Romans III)

“For this is [the righteousness] of God when we are justified not by works, (in which case it were necessary that not a spot even should be found,) but by grace, in which case all sin is done away. And this at the same time that it suffers us not to be lifted up, (seeing the whole is the free gift of God,) teaches us also the greatness of that which is given. For that which was before was a righteousness of the Law and of works, but this is the righteousness of God.” (John Chrysostom, Homily 11 on Second Corinthians, 2 Cor 5:21)

Theodoret, Bishop of Syria, on the same:

“The salvation of man depends upon the divine philanthropy alone. For we do not gather it as the wages of our righteousness, but it is the gift of the divine goodness.” (On the 3rd chap, of Zephaniah.)

Clemens Romanus, on the same:

“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Romans 9:5 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven. All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (Letter to the Corinthians)

Ignatius on predestination and final perseverence:

“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fullness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Ephesians, Ch. 0)

“Seeing, then, all things have an end, these two things are simultaneously set before us— death and life; and every one shall go unto his own place. For as there are two kinds of coins, the one of God, the other of the world, and each of these has its special character stamped upon it, [so is it also here.] The unbelieving are of this world; but the believing have, in love, the character of God the Father by Jesus Christ, by whom, if we are not in readiness to die into His passion, His life is not in us.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, Ch. 5)

“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans. Ch. 0)

“I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that you also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must pray to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet Jesus Christ, who is our true life, has the power of [effecting] this.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Ch. 4)

“Flee, therefore, those evil offshoots [of Satan], which produce death-bearing fruit, whereof if any one tastes, he instantly dies. For these men are not the planting of the Father. For if they were, they would appear as branches of the cross, and their fruit would be incorruptible.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians, Ch. 11)

Are these the the Doctors of the Church you believe in?


108 posted on 10/26/2013 11:27:04 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Theo

OK, OK, we get it. You don’t respect Scripture. . . .

_________________________________________________________

I don’t think that that is his point at all. He is just asking if that is all there is.

His point about the universality of the scriptures makes sense. If there was universal acceptance then why nearly 40000 churches?

There is more to being Christian than saying the scriptures are true, as James says, “Show me your works and I will show you your faith!”.

Too many people believe that believing in Christ means they are being saved, I don’t buy it, Satan believes in Christ and I don’t think he will ever be saved.

If you are afraid to question your faith, your beliefs then you are afraid. Don’t be afraid. Know what it is you believe. Be able to explain to others why you believe.

I want to know more about the scriptures. I remember being surprised to find out that at least 3 of the Gospels were not written by Apostles but by those that heard them speak over and over again.

I will always want to know all I can. It is great to know Christ is Lord.


109 posted on 10/26/2013 11:54:15 AM PDT by JAKraig (Surely my religion is at least as good as yours)
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To: NYer; alphadog; infool7; Heart-Rest; HoosierDammit; red irish; fastrock; NorthernCrunchyCon; ...

“Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”

Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?

What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him

Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”

Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”

He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.” [John 6: 49-71]


110 posted on 10/26/2013 12:17:34 PM PDT by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: GeronL
All of those churches planted by the Apostles were independent of each other from everything I can find.

Than you need to look closer.

111 posted on 10/26/2013 12:37:30 PM PDT by verga (Si hoc legere scis, nimium eruditionis)
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To: verga

I don’t think I need to look any closer, I think others are seeing things that are not there.


112 posted on 10/26/2013 12:40:14 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: roamer_1

Instead of pulling; we will pray for you.


113 posted on 10/26/2013 12:43:19 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Here is an OT one.

Solomon built the temple. Over the years, invasions and bad kings much was lost, modified, ignored.
When Josiah repaired the temple, there was found the ancient scriptures in it.

Did Josiah decide to continue with the traditions as is?
NO!

23 So the king sent messengers, and they gathered all the elders of Jerusalem and Judah to him.

2 Then the king went to the Lord’s temple with all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, as well as the priests and the prophets—all the people from the youngest to the oldest. As they listened, he read all the words of the book of the covenant that had been found in the Lord’s temple.

3 Next, the king stood by the pillar[a] and made a covenant in the presence of the Lord to follow the Lord and to keep His commands, His decrees, and His statutes with all his mind and with all his heart, and to carry out the words of this covenant that were written in this book; all the people agreed to[b] the covenant.

Again, Josiah decided to not follow “tradition” but do what was written in the BOOK!


114 posted on 10/26/2013 12:59:14 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: NYer
1. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?

Wrong question. The Bible isn't a book, it's an anthology of 66 books. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

2. Other than the specific command to John to pen the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?

The Great Commandment Mat 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

3. Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?

Again , wrong question,...it's based upon faith in Christ and Christ is idenitified with the Word of God and His Word is recorded in written communication as the Holy Bible. John 1:1-5. John 3:16

4. Some Protestants claim that Jesus condemned all oral tradition (e.g., Matt 15:3, 6; Mark 7:813). If so, why does He bind His listeners to oral tradition by telling them to obey the scribes and Pharisees when they “sit on Moses’ seat” (Matt 23:2)?

Mat 23:13 (13) But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

5. Some Protestants claim that St. Paul condemned all oral tradition (Col 2:8). If so, why does he tell the Thessalonians to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thes 2:15) and praises the Corinthians because they “hold firmly to the traditions” (1 Cor 11:2)? (And why does the Protestant NIV change the word “tradition” to “teaching”?)

Some were instances of teaching vice education. The tradition included a reading and a commentary, as in comparative theology, but where His Word gives direction, it isn't duplicitous.

6. If the authors of the New Testament believed in sola Scriptura, why did they sometimes draw on oral Tradition as authoritative and as God’s Word (Matt 2:23; 23:2; 1 Cor 10:4; 1 Pet 3:19; Jude 9, 14 15)?

Wrong premise. They draw on His Word.

7. Where in the Bible is God’s Word restricted only to what is written down?

Wrong question. We are told it is ADEQUATE to perform every good work, which God the Father, has preordained from eternity past. Anything might be allowed, but not all promotes His Plan. His Word is veritable. 8. How do we know who wrote the books that we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Hebrews, and 1, 2, and 3 John?

See most recognized seminary textbooks on Introduction to New Testament Survey. Say Gleason Archer as a typical reference. 9. On what authority, or on what principle, would we accept as Scripture books that we know were not written by one of the twelve apostles?

If they were quoted by Christ Jesus or His Apostles or His Prophecy, then they are verified. 10. Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible? (e.g., Is the Bible’s Table of Contents inspired?)

It all goes back to God the Son. Follow His issuance of the Word, from Genesis to His Revelation to John. 11. How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the individual books of the New Testament are inspired, even when they make no claim to be inspired?

False premise. Christ Himself quoted from Scripture verifying their veracity and most books are prefaced and ended acknowledging God for their Providence. 12. How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the letters of St. Paul, who wrote to first- century congregations and individuals, are meant to be read by us as Scripture 2000 years later?

As the Apostle to the Gentiles/Romans we still are in the Church Age and have faith in His Word. 13. Where does the Bible claim to be the sole authority for Christians in matters of faith and morals?

As the bride of Christ, our authority is given by God the Son and He is identified as the Word. John 1:1-5 14. Most of the books of the New Testament were written to address very specific problems in the early Church, and none of them are a systematic presentation of Christian faith and theology. On what biblical basis do Protestants think that everything that the apostles taught is captured in the New Testament writings?

Premise begs the question. Galatians and Rev help seal the canon of Scripture. 15. If the books of the New Testament are “self-authenticating” through the ministry of the Holy Spirit to each individual, then why was there confusion in the early Church over which books were inspired, with some books being rejected by the majority?

Probably a wrong question, begging an incorrect premise. The authentication comes from God. Perhaps many groupings of believers in the early Church were under spiritual attack for many years to distract them from simply compiling the list, along with any number of worldly counterfeits attempting to distract believers from His Plan. Any number of reasons. Wrong premise. Generally a wrong question.

16. If the meaning of the Bible is so clear—so easily interpreted—and if the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it for themselves, then why are there over 33,000 Protestant denominations, and millions of individual Protestants, all interpreting the Bible differently?

Every believer is sanctified by God the Holy Spirit by God's plan. We have different spiritual gifts and different roles. We are slowly sanctified in our thinking at different times and we all uniquely have made different decisions scarring our souls in different fashions. Those who attempt to write theology independent of fellowship with God frequently may misguide one another.

17. Who may authoritatively arbitrate between Christians who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit into mutually contradictory interpretations of the Bible?

God the Holy Spirit.

18. Since each Protestant must admit that his or her interpretation is fallible, how can any Protestant in good conscience call anything heresy or bind another Christian to a particular belief?

By the Word. 19. Protestants usually claim that they all agree “on the important things.” Who is able to decide authoritatively what is important in the Christian faith and what is not?

God the Holy Spirit who indwells us and when we are in fellowship with Him after confessing our sins directly to God through faith in Christ and then study His Word, He guides us to His meaning in our spirit.

115 posted on 10/26/2013 1:08:52 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; roamer_1
Because the scripture teaches it, and thus we sum up that teaching in the word “Trinity.”

The concept of the Trinity as presently understood comes from Tradition, not Scripture. There are scriptural proof texts on which it is based, but the Trinity as we understand it comes from the Tradition of the Church.

Following Sola Scriptura alone regarding the Trinity has lead to many heresies such as Oneness Pentecostals. Scripture is the Heart of the Church. A Church without Scripture is dead. Scripture without the Church that collected and defined its canon leads to death too, as these groups that deny the Trinity based on a strict literal interpretation of scripture so aptly prove.

116 posted on 10/26/2013 1:20:17 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: GeronL; verga
All of those churches planted by the Apostles were independent of each other from everything I can find.


The Catholic Church

Although it is not widely known in our Western world, the Catholic Church is actually a communion of Churches. According to the Constitution on the Church of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, the Catholic Church is understood to be "a corporate body of Churches," united with the Pope of Rome, who serves as the guardian of unity (LG, no. 23). At present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church. The new Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II, uses the phrase "autonomous ritual Churches" to describe these various Churches (canon 112). Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. Because of the particularities of history, there is only one Western Catholic Church, while there are 21 Eastern Catholic Churches. The Western Church, known officially as the Latin Church, is the largest of the Catholic Churches. It is immediately subject to the Roman Pontiff as Patriarch of the West. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops. Through the Congregation for Oriental Churches, the Roman Pontiff works to assure the health and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

117 posted on 10/26/2013 1:34:00 PM PDT by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: 50sDad
Holy Spirit and Faith. There, done.

Exactly. If you don't believe in the Bible as the unerring Word of God, then it's easy to sharpshoot it with legalese and dismiss it as a book.

118 posted on 10/26/2013 1:43:51 PM PDT by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: impimp

Sorry, it is not my post that is wrong. It is your perceptions that are incorrect. None of what I said contradicts either of the two scriptures that you referenced.

I merely pointed out that we have recordings (in written form) of what Jesus said and did. Those “oral traditions” are recorded in scripture. Thus, since the scriptures are at most, one perhaps two people removed from the source, trusting in them over the traditions of man which in the Catholic branch of the Christian church, hundreds of people removed, is a far safer approach to working out my own salvation.

For where there is conflict between scripture and the traditions of man, I will follow scripture as they are as close to the original recordings as one can get.


119 posted on 10/26/2013 2:08:10 PM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Scripture and Apostolic Tradition derive from the same source and therefore cannot be in opposition.


120 posted on 10/26/2013 2:11:01 PM PDT by Romulus
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To: Marie

The apostles, and after them the successors appointed by them.


121 posted on 10/26/2013 2:12:30 PM PDT by Romulus
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To: Mr Rogers

“Seems most of your list boils down to “Why do they believe scripture is more important than what the Pope says?” And that is easy to answer...”

Ding ding...we have a winner for theological strawman of the day.


122 posted on 10/26/2013 2:12:50 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (We have No Opposition to Obam a's Socialist Agenda:)
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To: taxcontrol

Do you know of any of these conflicts between Catholic Tradition and scripture?


123 posted on 10/26/2013 2:13:49 PM PDT by impimp
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To: 50sDad
The Foundation of the church is the Trinity, Christ’s SOLE atonement for sin

That's what I thought too...Your religion didn't find the Trinity til 400 years after Jesus was Crucified...That's about when your religion showed up...

124 posted on 10/26/2013 2:15:54 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Romulus

Thank you for answering!

How are the appointments made? Who decided who’s next in line?

(And are we talking about Catholic doctrine or Protestant? I’m getting lost in the thread.)

Please know that I’m genuinely curious and not trying to pick a fight or make anyone defensive. I entered this thread with the intention to understand and I greatly appreciate those who’ve made a true effort to address what, appears to be, discrepancies between the two major branches of Christianity.

We have some smart FReepers!


125 posted on 10/26/2013 2:19:39 PM PDT by Marie (When are they going to take back Obama's peace prize?)
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To: impimp
Lets start with prayers to dead people and especially Mary.

Catholic Catechism 2682 (from http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm#)

Because of Mary’s singular cooperation with the action of the Holy Spirit, the Church loves to pray in communion with the Virgin Mary, to magnify with her the great things the Lord has done for her, and to entrust supplications and praises to her.

Contrasted against how Jesus taught when the Apostles asked him directly how should we pray. He did not teach us to pray to our ancestors, icons, each other, priests, crosses, saints, the apostles OR EVEN TO Jesus himself. Rather Jesus taught that we should take our concerns directly to God the father. The Lords prayer is found in Matthew 6:9-13.

The teaching of the Catholic church DIRECTLY contradicts the oral tradition and teaching of Jesus as recorded in Matthew.

126 posted on 10/26/2013 2:28:22 PM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: Marie
For the most part, the priests and ministers were *wonderful*, honest, loving people who genuinely wanted to talk to me. I was offered some resolution on some of the issues, but there were things that I could never find satisfactory answers to.
My daughter is where you were at, Marie, and it is heartbreaking to me. She has selected, however, to go one further, and step away from faith entirely. The "prize" so to speak through the Catholic Church is the Eucharist (and of course all Sacraments in addition), but lo and behold, you can't receive Him 'until' you become a Catholic, so what that means to me anyway, is that it's almost impossible to have all your questions answered in the beginning or even the middle of your faith journey, because it is through the Eucharist, that the answers keep coming.... and coming..... It is through His Love, His Body, that we grow..... and learn..
127 posted on 10/26/2013 2:39:40 PM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: Diamond

It is not the Catholic position that Apostolic Tradition overrides Scripture. Sacred Scripture is the written component of Tradition. It’s all God given, and without contradiction.


128 posted on 10/26/2013 2:40:21 PM PDT by Romulus
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To: taxcontrol

Romans 8:38

Who is dead?


129 posted on 10/26/2013 2:44:48 PM PDT by impimp
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To: Salvation
Not after that oral tradition was referenced by the Book of John and the Letters of John and written down by the Early Church Fathers who KNEW the apostles.

Ever think about that? That they got their information first hand from the apostles?

No accuracy to that at all...Polycarp was the only one who knew John and there wasn't a Catholic bone in his body...

Besides, that's a pretty feeble argument...The person who had John exiled to Patmos knew John as well...Just because someone knew John is no reason to believe they wrote the truth about him...

130 posted on 10/26/2013 2:45:18 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: mlizzy

Please don’t have a broken heart over her search. For me, at the core, was a genuine desire to truly *know* G-d. Having a child who’s honestly seeking Him is a blessing.

But you bring up a point that I had to come to. I have faith in G-d and His scripture. I still have a heck of a time with human beings ability to understand it. :)


131 posted on 10/26/2013 2:46:30 PM PDT by Marie (When are they going to take back Obama's peace prize?)
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To: what's up
Funny how so many Catholics are so weak in holding up the Bible as the Word of God.

Funny how so many non-Catholics are ignorant of how the Catholic Church not only gave them the very Bible they claim we do not hold up, but apply it to our daily lives. To better understand this, I would invite you to attend mass at a Catholic Church in your local community. You may be surprised at how much Scripture is incorporated into the liturgy and the reverence given to the Word of God.

The second thing that happened was when I quietly slipped into the basement chapel down at Marquette, Gesu. They were having a noon Mass and I had never gone to Mass before. I slipped in. I sat down in the back pew. I didn't kneel. I didn't genuflect, I wouldn't stand. I was an observer; I was there to watch. But I was surprised when 40, 50, 60, 80, or 100 ordinary folk just walked in off the street for midday Mass, ordinary folk who just came in, genuflected, knelt and prayed. Then a bell rang and they all stood up and Mass began. I had never seen it before.

The Liturgy of the Word was so rich, not only the Scripture readings. They read more Scripture, I thought, in a weekday Mass than we read in a Sunday service. But their prayers were soaked with Biblical language and phrases from Isaiah and Ezekiel. I sat there saying, "Man, stop the show, let me explain your prayers. That's Zechariah; that's Ezekiel. Wow! It's like the Bible coming to life and dancing out on the center stage and saying, "This is where I belong."

The Scott Hahn Conversion Story

132 posted on 10/26/2013 2:47:44 PM PDT by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: Salvation
John also says that it is not all written down.

John says everthing worth knowing for you and me for salvation IS written down...What didn't get written obviously isn't beneficial instruction for Christians...

133 posted on 10/26/2013 2:49:18 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Salvation
Where is the word, Trinity, in the Bible? Thank you for proving the value of Holy Tradition.

If your religion didn't get the knowledge of the Trinity from the bible (400 years after it was written), where did they get it from???

134 posted on 10/26/2013 2:50:52 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Salvation
All you have to do is check on the Councils held from the Council of Jerusalem onward.

The real church didn't bother with coucils...No need for them...

135 posted on 10/26/2013 2:58:06 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: NYer
They were having a noon Mass and I had never gone to Mass before. I slipped in. I sat down in the back pew. I didn't kneel. I didn't genuflect, I wouldn't stand. I was an observer; I was there to watch. But I was surprised when 40, 50, 60, 80, or 100 ordinary folk just walked in off the street for midday Mass, ordinary folk who just came in, genuflected, knelt and prayed. Then a bell rang and they all stood up and Mass began. I had never seen it before. The Liturgy of the Word was so rich, not only the Scripture readings. They read more Scripture, I thought, in a weekday Mass than we read in a Sunday service.
Very interesting; this is how I came to know the Church as well, and coincidentally, it was a noon Mass for me too. Many noon Masses, actually. Scores of people [usually over 100] giving up their lunches to receive the daily Bread of Christ. Spectacular!
136 posted on 10/26/2013 2:58:59 PM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: Salvation; roamer_1
Instead of pulling; we will pray for you.

Mary's going to straighten out his improper view of the scripture, eh???

137 posted on 10/26/2013 3:04:32 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Romulus
Scripture and Apostolic Tradition derive from the same source and therefore cannot be in opposition.

Where is your evidence??? Just one little scrap of something??? Anything???

138 posted on 10/26/2013 3:08:53 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: taxcontrol

That was too easy...


139 posted on 10/26/2013 3:10:42 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: mlizzy
you can't receive Him 'until' you become a Catholic

I have received Jesus Christ and I won't go any where near a Catholic church...

140 posted on 10/26/2013 3:12:28 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: what's up
Funny how so many Catholics are so weak in holding up the Bible as the Word of God.
Here is a recording of daily Mass from October 1 of this year. What you state is not true, at least not for this priest/deacon! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARGa3GbP9DY
141 posted on 10/26/2013 3:14:15 PM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: NYer
I don't believe Hahn's testimony...He was a bible college educated, ordained Protestant minister...He knew exactly what went on at a Catholic Mass...

If Hahn didn't preach the bible to his flock, he wasn't fit to be a minister...

142 posted on 10/26/2013 3:20:18 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Marie

In the Catholic Church, the bishops are the successors of the apostles. Technically, any bishop can ordain another man as bishop, but because it would make no sense for a bishop to be alienated from the Pope, in practice it’s the Pope who selects new bishops, from names recommended to him by his representatives as well as by clergy and people of the local churches. It’s not a perfect process, but we rely on the promises of Jesus to protect his Church and preserve her in holiness.


143 posted on 10/26/2013 3:44:10 PM PDT by Romulus
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To: Brian Kopp DPM; Greetings_Puny_Humans
Following Sola Scriptura alone regarding the Trinity has lead to many heresies such as Oneness Pentecostals.

Taking for granted, of course, that y'all have the authority to declare heresy - That same sense of superiority that make y'all better than them nasty Oneness Pentecostals... Using something that cannot be proven. Such is the way of divisiveness.

144 posted on 10/26/2013 4:34:20 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Iscool; Salvation
Mary's going to straighten out his improper view of the scripture, eh???

Never fear... I am far beyond the clutches of their goddess.

145 posted on 10/26/2013 4:36:15 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Iscool; Romulus
Where is your evidence??? Just one little scrap of something??? Anything???

Bupkis. But then, you knew that was coming... ; )

146 posted on 10/26/2013 4:40:00 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

“The concept of the Trinity as presently understood comes from Tradition, not Scripture. There are scriptural proof texts on which it is based, but the Trinity as we understand it comes from the Tradition of the Church.”


This really demonstrates your ignorance of the Holy scripture and what it contains. I’m also going to take a wild guess and conclude that you’ve never actually read anything from the church fathers on how exactly they defended the trinity.

It was not through a “I know this isn’t clear in the scripture, but we hold, from extrabiblical views, that the Trinity is true.” They base the entire argument on the scripture only.

I suggest you look up either Athanasius or Augustine on this matter and get educated on how the church actually has operated throughout the centuries.

“Following Sola Scriptura alone regarding the Trinity has lead to many heresies such as Oneness Pentecostals. “


We also have Roman Catholicism, yet another cult, or Mormonism, etc. The problem though isn’t that the scripture is wrong, unclear, or hard to understand. It’s man. I’ll stick with Cyril’s advice and make logical arguments from the scripture, instead of thumping my chest and hoping that infidels will take my claims of extrabiblical knowledge seriously.

“Have thou ever in your mind this seal, which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures. For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning , but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, Cat. Lecture 4, Ch. 17)

“Scripture without the Church that collected and defined its canon leads to death too, as these groups that deny the Trinity based on a strict literal interpretation of scripture so aptly prove.”


Well then, please make an argument from the position that the trinity is not true, using the scripture to do it, and we’ll see if you can beat me in a debate on the matter.


147 posted on 10/26/2013 4:41:02 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: CyberAnt
I’m confused by your questions .. which have nothing to do with what Jesus did for you on the cross.

The questions are straightforward and have everything to do with what Jesus did for us on the cross.

You might learn more, if you would just start by finding out who Jesus was, who were the people surrounding him at his birth and death, and what did he tell the Apostles and the public.

Perhaps you are not aware that these facts were communicated to the Apostles, the true witnesses of Jesus Christ's life, death, resurrection and ascension on earth. They passed these extraordinary events on to others who, in turn, recorded some of the information. The written record is in scripture.

Our Lord Himself wrote nothing. He commanded the Apostles not to write but to teach and preach: "Going, therefore, teach all nations" and "preach the Gospel to every creature." Christ's disciples and the Christians were commanded to hear the Church, not to read the still nonexistent or at best incomplete New Testament Scriptures: "He who hears you, hears Me."

The teaching Church was in existence long before a single line of the New Testament was written. The Apostles evangelized different peoples, not by presenting to them a copy of the New Testament which did not as yet exist, but by preaching the Gospel, the oral message of Christ to them. Thousands of men became Christians and adhered to the whole truth of God before they saw or read a single book of the New Testament.

So, I recommend a great book, “The Life of Jesus Christ”, by James Stalker. The author was a Pastor of a church in Scotland.

Thank you! And I would recommend you read:

Widely proclaimed a classic work of Christian faith, Life of Christ has been hailed as the most eloquent of Fulton J. Sheen's many books. The fruit of many years of reflection, prayer, and research, it is a dramatic and moving recounting of the birth, life, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Christ, and a passionate portrait of the God-Man, the teacher, the healer, and, most of all, the Savior, whose promise has sustained humanity for two millenia.

Your goal should be to know Jesus .. and not get bogged down with mindless questions which have no bearing whatsoever on your relationship with Jesus Christ.

Not only do I KNOW Jesus, He comes to me each week in the Eucharist ... Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

"I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
John 6:51

Your comments reflect the presumption that Catholics, who gave you the very Bible you read, do not have a relationship with Jesus Christ. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Hence, these questions are directed towards you and your relationship with the Bible. Have you been able to answer any of them? We could all benefit from your response.

148 posted on 10/26/2013 5:27:50 PM PDT by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NYer

The Catholic Church did not exist for centuries. Probably one of the plated churches got the delusion that they were the “true church” and the corruption grew from there.


149 posted on 10/26/2013 5:34:33 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: impimp

Ummm, you do realize that the scripture you referenced has zero relevance to the point in question. That scripture is taking about how tightly Paul clings to his faith in Christ and that even death or the threat of death will not cause him to recant his faith and separate himself from Christ.

The point in question is the fact that Catholic teaching includes prayers to Mary which directly contradicts the oral teachings of Jesus as recorded in scripture. And yes Mary is dead, as in no longer living on this earth.


150 posted on 10/26/2013 5:42:40 PM PDT by taxcontrol
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