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Questions for “Bible Christians” that they can’t answer - Part 1
Catholic Convert ^ | October 25, 2013 | David Palm and Steve Ray

Posted on 10/26/2013 6:56:10 AM PDT by NYer

There are 38 questions + a few bonus questions. I have split them into two separate posts of 20 and 18 + bonus questions. Are you ready?

1. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?

2. Other than the specific command to John to pen the Revelation, where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?

3. Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?

4. Some Protestants claim that Jesus condemned all oral tradition (e.g., Matt 15:3, 6; Mark 7:813). If so, why does He bind His listeners to oral tradition by telling them to obey the scribes and Pharisees when they “sit on Moses’ seat” (Matt 23:2)?

5. Some Protestants claim that St. Paul condemned all oral tradition (Col 2:8). If so, why does he tell the Thessalonians to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thes 2:15) and praises the Corinthians because they “hold firmly to the traditions” (1 Cor 11:2)?

(And why does the Protestant NIV change the word “tradition” to “teaching”?)

6. If the authors of the New Testament believed in sola Scriptura, why did they sometimes draw on oral Tradition as authoritative and as God’s Word (Matt 2:23; 23:2; 1 Cor 10:4; 1 Pet 3:19; Jude 9, 14 15)?

7. Where in the Bible is God’s Word restricted only to what is written down?

8. How do we know who wrote the books that we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Hebrews, and 1, 2, and 3 John?

9. On what authority, or on what principle, would we accept as Scripture books that we know were not written by one of the twelve apostles?

10. Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible? (e.g., Is the Bible’s Table of Contents inspired?)

11. How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the individual books of the New Testament are inspired, even when they make no claim to be inspired?

12. How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the letters of St. Paul, who wrote to first- century congregations and individuals, are meant to be read by us as Scripture 2000 years later?

13. Where does the Bible claim to be the sole authority for Christians in matters of faith and morals?

14. Most of the books of the New Testament were written to address very specific problems in the early Church, and none of them are a systematic presentation of Christian faith and theology. On what biblical basis do Protestants think that everything that the apostles taught is captured in the New Testament writings?

15. If the books of the New Testament are “self-authenticating” through the ministry of the Holy Spirit to each individual, then why was there confusion in the early Church over which books were inspired, with some books being rejected by the majority?

16. If the meaning of the Bible is so clear—so easily interpreted—and if the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it for themselves, then why are there over 33,000 Protestant denominations, and millions of individual Protestants, all interpreting the Bible differently?

17. Who may authoritatively arbitrate between Christians who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit into mutually contradictory interpretations of the Bible?

18. Since each Protestant must admit that his or her interpretation is fallible, how can any Protestant in good conscience call anything heresy or bind another Christian to a particular belief?

19. Protestants usually claim that they all agree “on the important things.” Who is able to decide authoritatively what is important in the Christian faith and what is not?

20. How did the early Church evangelize and overthrow the Roman Empire, survive and prosper almost 350 years, without knowing for sure which books belong in the canon of Scripture?


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: antiprotestantrant; bible; romancatholicism; sectarianturmoil
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Part 2 will be posted tomorrow.
1 posted on 10/26/2013 6:56:10 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; Ronaldus Magnus; tiki; ...

Ping to Part 1.


2 posted on 10/26/2013 6:56:35 AM PDT by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NYer
Love God with everything that is in you.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

3 posted on 10/26/2013 7:04:25 AM PDT by liege (America 180)
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To: liege

Holy Spirit and Faith. There, done.


4 posted on 10/26/2013 7:10:18 AM PDT by 50sDad (A Liberal prevents me from telling you anything here.)
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To: NYer

The Devil is in the details. That’s the reason he’s an attorney and a skilled liar. He can use almost anyone anywhere to create doubt even clergy using simple minded questions...: )


5 posted on 10/26/2013 7:15:43 AM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: jsanders2001

^ or persons claiming to be clergy.


6 posted on 10/26/2013 7:17:22 AM PDT by jsanders2001
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: jsanders2001

and people claiming people claim to be clergy. Or are they exempt? Be right back; gotta look that one up...


8 posted on 10/26/2013 7:19:45 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer

Just 38 more reasons why I’m grateful to be a practicing Catholic...we have the Doctors of the Church that sort this stuff out.

They’ve been working on this since the 1st Council of Nicaea and are still in business today. With the reciting of the Apostles Creed all Catholics agree to fall in step with the official teachings...or face the eternal consequences.


10 posted on 10/26/2013 7:30:48 AM PDT by exPBRrat
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To: NYer

Some may say the same place from which parts of “Roman” Catholic dogma came from, created by predecessors.

As for 13. Where does the Bible claim to be the sole authority for Christians in matters of faith and morals?

My reply is: the 10 commandments.

However my bottom line is: This is the type of discussion that concentrates on dividing followers of Christ. If we concentrate on these division points, then we are not obeying Jesus and following what he taught, as best we can understand it. It also shows that we need to have a historical perspective and knowledge and understand that what was said then, is applicable for today. And NOT canceled because Jesus didn’t talk about electricity, automobiles, airplanes, etc.


11 posted on 10/26/2013 7:30:56 AM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: NYer

EASY!

2 Timothy: 2:15

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2 Timothy 3:15

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
***

And from the first, what NT books were regarded by all Christians as true?
4 Gospels
Acts
Paul’s letters except Hebrews
1John
1 Peter
And that was it.

250 years later were added James, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, Jude, Revelation.

Other uninspired books were hanging around the fringe and were considered scripture by some, like the awful Shepherd of Hermas which made it into the early Greek bibles discovered in the 1800s.


12 posted on 10/26/2013 7:33:54 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: 50sDad

I have read the Screwtape Letters. It takes discernment fom the Spirit to be able to distinguish what is from God and what is from Satan. Its getting more and more obvious Satan has upped his game in deception within the last several years but it all still comes down to if it walks and quacks like a duck but says its a swan its still a duck. If half of our population would learn to make judgments based on actions not words it might have kept us out of our current debacle. When you elect someone because of their “swagger” instead of their beliefs and track record this is what you get (of course he lied about that). Unfortunately now they are going to make everyone pay because of their lack of judgment and discernment.


13 posted on 10/26/2013 7:40:39 AM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: wintertime; 50sDad; GreyFriar
The poster of this thread is here merely to sow dissension and discord.

On the contrary, the purpose of this thread is to encourage Bible Christians to pull together, to prayerfully reflect on what they have been taught. The word "truth" appears in the Bible, in the singular. There can be only one Truth. If anything, the erroneous theory of sola scriptura has split and divided the christian community into thousands of communities.

According to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23). We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5). There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many.

14 posted on 10/26/2013 7:41:46 AM PDT by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NYer

Just one question...
How is it the operation of God’s spirit is so obviously ignored?

Next!


15 posted on 10/26/2013 7:43:24 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: NYer

This is stupid! You could come up with limitless things that aren’t in the bible.

This person is a MOROON!


16 posted on 10/26/2013 7:43:56 AM PDT by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: NYer

The Scriptures are essential to our faith as they give us a foundation to set our faith upon. Tradition, Worship, Prayer, and Serivce are also essential. If you take out one piece, they other parts will suffer for it.

Jesus studied and tauight from Scripture. He is our example and if it was good enough for Him, it should be so for us.


17 posted on 10/26/2013 7:46:52 AM PDT by CityCenter (Resist Obamacare!)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

1) 1 Corinthians 11:2: “. . . keep the ordinances, as I delivered {them} to you.” Paul in writing, orders the Corinthians to observes teachings transmitted orally.

2) 2 Thessalonians 2:15: “. . . hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” Same here. The Bible directs us to oral teachings

3) 2 Thessalonians 3:6: “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.” Oral teachings are the norm.

4) 1 Corinthians 15:1-3: “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received.” Again — Paul in writing refers to an oral teaching as authoritative and calls the people to follow it.

5) 1 Thessalonians 2:13: “. . . when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received {it} not {as} the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God.” Oral teaching from the apostles is the equivalent of the word of God.

6) Jude 3: “. . . ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Oral teaching is the path to salvation. The Bible says so.

7) Lk 1:1-5 “it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.” Luke endorses the oral teaching in writing, and assures us that the original oral teaching is reliable.

8) Rom 6:17 “But God be thanked that [though] you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.” Paul gives thanks to God that his readers follow an oral teaching.

9) 1 Cor 11:23 “For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you” Paul verifies that his oral teaching is from the Lord.

10) Gal 1:9ff “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.” Anyone who preaches a gospel differing from Paul’s ORAL PREACHING is “accursed”.

11) 2 Pet 2:21 “For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known [it,] to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.” People who have turned away from Peter’s oral teachings are better off with NO GOSPEL AT ALL.

12) Romans 10:15 “And how shall they preach unless they are sent?” Preachers not sent by the apostles have no authority and are not to be heard. They are not sent by God.

13) John 20:30 “And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book.” The apostles know more than you do.

14) John 21:25 “And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.” The apostles know more than you do.

15) 2 John 1:12 “Having many things to write to you, I did not wish [to do so] with paper and ink; but I hope to come to you and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.” John saves his best stuff for the oral teaching. The Bible says so, so it must be true.

16) Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” If you do not “hear” the apostles and those sent by them, you do not hear the Lord.

17) Matthew 16:19 “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Peter received in the keys a mandate given to no other disciple.

18) Matthew 18:18 “Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” The power of binding and loosing belongs to the apostles, not to all followers of Jesus.

19) Luke 24:45 “Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures.” The apostles know more than you do.

20) Matthew 13:11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” The apostles know more than you do.

21) Luke 8:10 he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God; but for others they are in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand. The apostles know more than you do.

22) 1 Timothy 3: 14-15 “I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” The pillar and bulwark of the truth is not the Bible. It is the Church. THE Church.

23) 2 Peter 1:20 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.” Scriptural interpretation contrary to the authentic apostolic teaching is invalid. You cannot be assured of your salvation simply by reading the Bible in private.

24) 2 Peter 3:16 “There are some things in [Paul’s epistles] hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.” Scriptural interpretation contrary to the Church descended from the Apostles is invalid.


18 posted on 10/26/2013 7:47:22 AM PDT by Romulus
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To: NYer

Don’t bother to post part 2


19 posted on 10/26/2013 7:47:27 AM PDT by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: NYer
"He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, ...But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.... But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. " We are praying for you NYer...
20 posted on 10/26/2013 7:48:17 AM PDT by virgil283 (When the sun spins, the cross appears, and the skies burn red)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

I believe that should have answered it.


21 posted on 10/26/2013 7:51:09 AM PDT by boycott
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To: NYer

OK, OK, we get it. You don’t respect Scripture. You’ve made your point very clear that you have little regard for Scripture. Indeed, you’ve made 20 points that you have little regard for Scripture.


22 posted on 10/26/2013 7:51:21 AM PDT by Theo (May Christ be exalted above all.)
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To: jsanders2001

Steve Ray is not an attorney.


23 posted on 10/26/2013 7:54:15 AM PDT by impimp
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To: Theo

Reminds me of some of the Mega Churches.


24 posted on 10/26/2013 7:56:51 AM PDT by CityCenter (Resist Obamacare!)
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To: Theo

Wrong. Steve Ray respects scripture very much. He respects it the way Jesus commands us to - by following the teachings of the Catholic Church with respect to oral and written Tradition.


25 posted on 10/26/2013 7:57:28 AM PDT by impimp
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To: wintertime
The poster of this thread is here merely to sow dissension and discord.

Now that's just silly. The poster is seeking Truth and helping others to find it.

That you disagree with the poster's view does not make the poster a sower of discord.

Another point I hope the next installment covers is the whole idea that the early Apostolic Church fell into error. If it did, Christ lied when He said He would send the Holy Spirit to lead His Church to all Truth and that the gates of Hell would not prevail.

If the Apostolic Churches (Orthodox and Catholic) are completely wrong, we all believe in vain, because Christ would have been a liar.

26 posted on 10/26/2013 7:57:44 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: impimp

> Steve Ray is not an attorney.

Didn’t literally mean an attorney; the nature of one


27 posted on 10/26/2013 8:03:11 AM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: NYer
Questions for “Bible Christians” that they can’t answer - Part 1

I got news for ya chump...If you are not a 'Bible' Christian, you ain't a Christian at all...

1. Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?

I conclude this was written by an unsaved person who is completely ignorant of God's scriptures...

Exo_24:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

God did not trust nor rely on Moses' memory to pass on what God told him...God wrote it down for him...

2Ki_23:21 And the king commanded all the people, saying, Keep the passover unto the LORD your God, as it is written in the book of this covenant.

No comment is needed...God has people write his words for posterity...

Jer_36:6 Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the LORD in the ears of the people in the LORD'S house upon the fasting day: and also thou shalt read them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities.

God's commands his words to be written, and then read...

Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

So it is easy to conclude that every word from the mouth of God to us is to be written...

Act_13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

The New Testament is based on a 'book'...

Joh_20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Nothing outside of the written scriptures can possibly add one iota to our salvation or the knowledge of our salvation...

This voids any and all of the rest of the elementary questions posed in the supposed hit piece...Ignorance of God and ignorance of God's words is what breeds this kind of questioning...

28 posted on 10/26/2013 8:06:06 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: NYer

Thank you for your witness.

One day “Job’s theologians” will answer for their doctrinaire pontifications.


29 posted on 10/26/2013 8:06:51 AM PDT by papertyger ("refusing to draw an inescapable conclusion does not qualify as a 'difference of opinion.'")
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To: Romulus

When tradition and SCRIPTURE collide which do you go with?

1 Samuel 15:22
And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.


30 posted on 10/26/2013 8:08:04 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: faucetman; NYer; wintertime; 50sDad; exPBRrat; Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; ...

exPBTrat said: “Just 38 more reasons why I’m grateful to be a practicing Catholic...we have the Doctors of the Church that sort this stuff out.”

“They’ve been working on this since the 1st Council of Nicaea and are still in business today. With the reciting of the Apostles Creed all Catholics agree to fall in step with the official teachings...or face the eternal consequences.”

It is in this that ALL of us can seek answers. The Roman Catholic Church has kept the lineal knowledge and studied the “Doctors of the Church” in whom many Protestants have rejected through ignorance, arrogance, or whatever. Too many Protestants go back only to the Protestant reformation for their “Doctors of the Church” and some do not even go that far.

What NYer posted is, in my view, merely a Catholic version of the lists I’ve seen “Bible only Protestants” post here. And I believe NYer did it as an example for all of how both sides can play the same game. And how it is destructive to both sides and Christian unity. For those who call NYer a “destructive troll,” I put forth that he/she can be alleged to be “destructive” only if you also condemn those Protestants who post similar lists as “destructive trolls.”

My bottom line is that NYer is no more a destructive troll than those whom leveled that accusation.


31 posted on 10/26/2013 8:09:10 AM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: NYer; wintertime; 50sDad

Yea verily.


32 posted on 10/26/2013 8:11:34 AM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: NYer

It doesn’t take long to figure out this person has a real problem with the authority of the Bible. The Holy Spirit directs us as He did the authors of the books included in the New Testament. This writer seeks to create a wall where one doesn’t exist. God speaks to us both through His written word and through the spoken word but He well knows that the spoken word can easily be distorted and forgotten moreso than the written Word.

I have a question for this author: Why did God write His Ten Commandments in stone rather than just giving Moses the words to remember?

My guess is this author is either a homosexual trying to expunge the parts in Scripture that condemn homosexuals or he is someone who is seeking to so muddy the Christian faith as to make it untrustworthy.


33 posted on 10/26/2013 8:13:25 AM PDT by OrangeHoof (Howdy to all you government agents spying on me.)
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To: Iscool

this is only my humble opinion

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


34 posted on 10/26/2013 8:15:58 AM PDT by Sophia777
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To: NYer

These questions show a lack of understanding of what the Bible is, why we have it, and why it is important. The following is directed towards question 1.

Nowhere did “Jesus give instruction that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book”. This is an obvious fallacy of definition.

The “book” is the inspired word of God. Catholics and Protestants largely agree on this.

Protestants did not compile the books of the Bible, Catholics did.

Catholics devised the system by which some writings were judged inspired and some were not. The reasons behind the necessity for such a system are obvious.

Two verses which offer the motive for doing so are :

Deuteronomy 8:3

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.

And:

Matthew 4:4

New International Version (NIV)

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[a]”

This establishes that we are to live by God’s word. How are we to know God’s word? By hearing it, or by reading it directly.

Protestants don’t claim that the Bible is the exhaustive word of God, but it is the accepted Canon, as determined by Catholics.

Protestants do not deny the concept of oral tradition itself, but of extra biblical, unsupported tradition or custom as authoritative.


35 posted on 10/26/2013 8:16:35 AM PDT by ecomcon
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To: NYer

We trust the written word because it does not change over time. Oral tradition is difficult to pass on exactly; each time it is told, something changes. Sometimes the changes are small, sometimes big and significant. Try playing children’s game of broken telephone, and you’ll see what I mean. Do you really want this to happen to your knowledge of God?


36 posted on 10/26/2013 8:16:49 AM PDT by Driabrin
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To: NYer

Who was Jesus and why did he come to Earth. Without the authority of the Bible the answers to that are just hearsay.


37 posted on 10/26/2013 8:18:38 AM PDT by DManA
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To: NYer

It’s truly odd just how little some Catholics esteem the very Bible they claim to own. What purpose does scripture serve if not as an anchor of truth? If scripture and doctrine or tradition are at odds, I’ll go with scripture. That’s what we’re told to do by scripture itself.


38 posted on 10/26/2013 8:19:12 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: NYer

Catholic hatred of the bible is profound.


39 posted on 10/26/2013 8:19:17 AM PDT by DungeonMaster
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To: NYer

Paul


40 posted on 10/26/2013 8:19:29 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: NYer

Seems most of your list boils down to “Why do they believe scripture is more important than what the Pope says?” And that is easy to answer:

“1.19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2.1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” - The Apostle Peter

The Word of God takes priority over the words of men. And there have been an ample number of evil Popes, whose lives proved the Holy Spirit was not in them. There are also an ample number of evil men preaching in Protestant pulpits, and we need the Word of God to save us from being beguiled by their lies and deceit.

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Given that the New Testament church had no priests other than the High Priest, and the universal priesthood of believers offering a sacrifice of thanksgiving and good deeds, it seems reasonable to question the teaching of men who set themselves up as mediators between man and God...


41 posted on 10/26/2013 8:19:47 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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To: GreyFriar
It is in this that ALL of us can seek answers. The Roman Catholic Church has kept the lineal knowledge and studied the “Doctors of the Church” in whom many Protestants have rejected through ignorance, arrogance, or whatever. Too many Protestants go back only to the Protestant reformation for their “Doctors of the Church” and some do not even go that far.

Sorry...It has been proven that some of your doctor's writings have been forged, especially your first doctor, Ignatius...

42 posted on 10/26/2013 8:20:09 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Mr Rogers

Read the Bible, Jesus and the Apostles also believed scripture was the answer, not some human authority.


43 posted on 10/26/2013 8:22:02 AM PDT by GeronL
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To: Iscool
Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. So it is easy to conclude that every word from the mouth of God to us is to be written...

I can only hope you can plead ignorance for taking the Lord's name in vain. That conclusion makes as much sense as the love of God approving sodomy.

44 posted on 10/26/2013 8:24:01 AM PDT by papertyger ("refusing to draw an inescapable conclusion does not qualify as a 'difference of opinion.'")
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To: NYer

(11) Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. (12) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Matthew 5:11-12 (KJV)


45 posted on 10/26/2013 8:28:45 AM PDT by papertyger ("refusing to draw an inescapable conclusion does not qualify as a 'difference of opinion.'")
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To: NYer
1 John 2:18-27 (TLB)

18 Dear children, this world’s last hour has come. You have heard about the Antichrist who is coming—the one who is against Christ—and already many such persons have appeared. This makes us all the more certain that the end of the world is near.

19 These "against-Christ" people used to be members of our churches, but they never really belonged with us or else they would have stayed. When they left us it proved that they were not of us at all.

20 But you are not like that, for the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you know the truth.

21 So I am not writing to you as to those who need to know the truth, but I warn you as those who can discern the difference between true and false.

22 And who is the greatest liar? The one who says that Jesus is not Christ. Such a person is antichrist, for he does not believe in God the Father and in his Son.

23 For a person who doesn’t believe in Christ, God’s Son, can’t have God the Father either. But he who has Christ, God’s Son, has God the Father also.

24 So keep on believing what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will always be in close fellowship with both God the Father and his Son.

25 And he himself has promised us this: eternal life.

26 These remarks of mine about the Antichrist are pointed at those who would dearly love to blindfold you and lead you astray.

27 But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, in your hearts, so that you don’t need anyone to teach you what is right. For he teaches you all things, and he is the Truth, and no liar; and so, just as he has said, you must live in Christ, never to depart from him.

John 17:14-17 (AMP)

14 I have given and delivered to them Your word (message) and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world [do not belong to the world], just as I am not of the world.

15 I do not ask that You will take them out of the world, but that You will keep and protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world (worldly, belonging to the world), [just] as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them [purify, consecrate, separate them for Yourself, make them holy] by the Truth; Your Word is Truth.

Hebrews 4:9-12 (AMP)

9 So then, there is still awaiting a full and complete Sabbath-rest reserved for the [true] people of God;

10 For he who has once entered [God's] rest also has ceased from [the weariness and pain] of human labors, just as God rested from those labors peculiarly His own.

11 Let us therefore be zealous and exert ourselves and strive diligently to enter that rest [of God, to know and experience it for ourselves], that no one may fall or perish by the same kind of unbelief and disobedience [into which those in the wilderness fell].

12 For the Word that God speaks is alive and full of power [making it active, operative, energizing, and effective]; it is sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating to the dividing line of the breath of life (soul) and [the immortal] spirit, and of joints and marrow [of the deepest parts of our nature], exposing and sifting and analyzing and judging the very thoughts and purposes of the heart.

1 Peter 2:1-8 (AMP)

1 SO BE done with every trace of wickedness (depravity, malignity) and all deceit and insincerity (pretense, hypocrisy) and grudges (envy, jealousy) and slander and evil speaking of every kind.

2 Like newborn babies you should crave (thirst for, earnestly desire) the pure (unadulterated) spiritual milk, that by it you may be nurtured and grow unto [completed] salvation,

3 Since you have [already] tasted the goodness and kindness of the Lord.

4 Come to Him [then, to that] Living Stone which men tried and threw away, but which is chosen [and] precious in God's sight.

5 [Come] and, like living stones, be yourselves built [into] a spiritual house, for a holy (dedicated, consecrated) priesthood, to offer up [those] spiritual sacrifices [that are] acceptable and pleasing to God through Jesus Christ.

6 For thus it stands in Scripture: Behold, I am laying in Zion a chosen (honored), precious chief Cornerstone, and he who believes in Him [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] shall never be disappointed or put to shame.

7 To you then who believe (who adhere to, trust in, and rely on Him) is the preciousness; but for those who disbelieve [it is true], The [very] Stone which the builders rejected has become the main Cornerstone,

8 And, A Stone that will cause stumbling and a Rock that will give [men] offense; they stumble because they disobey and disbelieve [God's] Word, as those [who reject Him] were destined (appointed) to do.

Just in those 4 verses, most of your questions are answered - or at least the important ones. Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Rock that is the Cornerstone, no other foundation will save you when the storms come. You know him through the Word, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not come to create another religion. He came to grow God's family.

Romans 8:11-16 (AMP)

11 And if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [then] He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you.

12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, but not to the flesh [we are not obligated to our carnal nature], to live [a life ruled by the standards set up by the dictates] of the flesh.

13 For if you live according to [the dictates of] the flesh, you will surely die. But if through the power of the [Holy] Spirit you are [habitually] putting to death (making extinct, deadening) the [evil] deeds prompted by the body, you shall [really and genuinely] live forever.

14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

15 For [the Spirit which] you have now received [is] not a spirit of slavery to put you once more in bondage to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption [the Spirit producing sonship] in [the bliss of] which we cry, Abba (Father)! Father!

16 The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.

46 posted on 10/26/2013 8:30:17 AM PDT by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: jsanders2001
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Some cannot abide the truth because it requires a changing of allegiance from what comes natural, lying, cheating, hating, murdering, to the supernatural, a living sacrifice.

Seems to me, that when something is written down, it has a greater capacity to withstand cynical attempts to confuse on matters of eternal importance... "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him." Proverb 26:4...

47 posted on 10/26/2013 8:31:06 AM PDT by dps.inspect (rage against the Obama machine...)
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To: papertyger

At least this thread exposed the ludicrous ignorance that leads to such inane assumptions and the resulting frighteningly unintelligent conclusions - it is now “easy to conclude” why so many here post such nonsense.


48 posted on 10/26/2013 8:33:06 AM PDT by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: NYer

#4, notice Moses has a seat but Peter doesn’t.


49 posted on 10/26/2013 8:34:45 AM PDT by DungeonMaster
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Thank you. That’s exactly what I was looking for and I’ll be looking all of that up.

For three years I went on a quest to understand Christianity. I went to Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Mormon, and other Christian churches, trying to find answers for my questions. There were many things that bothered me about Church doctrine and I was honestly looking for resolution.

What I got was a big helping of “That’s a good question. You just have to accept it and take it on faith.” One Catholic priest (WONDERFUL man) told me that some of the things I’d brought up had once bothered him as well.

For the most part, the priests and ministers were *wonderful*, honest, loving people who genuinely wanted to talk to me. I was offered some resolution on some of the issues, but there were things that I could never find satisfactory answers to.

I did get one telling me that the fact that I had doubts and questions meant that Satan was trying to keep me from G-d. “Don’t ask. Don’t doubt. It’s evil to do so.”


50 posted on 10/26/2013 8:37:05 AM PDT by Marie (When are they going to take back Obama's peace prize?)
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