Posted on 11/19/2013 6:10:28 AM PST by Gamecock
Trent, Decree on Justification, Chapter 7 1/13/1547:
The causes of this justification are the following:
The document goes on to discuss the instrumental causes (baptism and faith), and the formal cause, "the justice of God, not the justice by which he is himself just, but the justice by which he makes us just, namely the justice which we have AS A GIFT FROM HIM ..."
Do you want to apologize to me?
"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years. and BEGAT a son IN HIS OWN LIKENESS, AFTER HIS IMAGE: and called his name Seth."
Why is this important? Because Adam was created in God's image, without sin, until he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and sin entered into him. THIS is where we get our sin nature, from the fallen Adam. We are begotten of Adam, fallen Adam, and our nature is of Adam, corrupted by sin. All of us. Until the second Adam, Jesus Christ took our sins.
“To move to Rome is not only to give up justification and, thus, assurance— even more so, it is to give up Christ.”
Maybe the stupiest comment I have ever read in my life.
Ever hear of the Eucharist? Should I educate you on what the earliest Church fathers said? No, forget it, I get tired of talking to a wall.
Even better!
My wife had a childhood friend named “Merry.”
She married a guy whose last name was “Christmas.” I kid you not.
If you are exposed to Jesus Christ and you willingly turn away from him, reserve your place in hell.
Catholic 101.
That's the usual story that's given by the Evangelical side, but is almost never true. The real script follows one of three paths:
As said before, if the RC claims made for her wafers were made for medicine that would be fined for false advertizing. The multitudes walk in and walk out as before, and where Rome has predominated here so has liberalism, in contrast to the decades here of evangelicalism which takes the word of God as being what man lives by. Which is what the Lord said, (Mt. 4:4) and thus His "meat" was to do the Father's will, (Jn. 4:34) and as He lived by the Father is how He defined eating and drinking Him in Jn. 6:57.
I don’t think there is harm in presenting differences and debating. However, the snarky stuff should go as you recommend.
I am of the mind that on these forums no one changes their mind on the major theological issues. I think we all come here to defend either Scriptures or tradition or both. It is fine to come here and sharpen the sword, but not use the edge of it on each other.
Maybe to find out which one is figurative we should go back to the early church and ask the early Christians what they thought. Or, we could just look at what St. Paul says 1 Cor 11 when he writes that he who receives the Eucharist unworthily is guilty of bad taste in desecrating a mere symbol.
Oh, wait ... maybe that's not what he wrote.
Both of you should read up on the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano.
The question is how corrupt ? Adam fell, but how far?
Jesus is the Word of God, the Bread of Life that has come down from heaven.
Corruption can be a relative thing? Sin is sin, RobbyS. And it came from Adam. And all humanity is begotten of Adam in his own likeness. How do you go about measuring sin? ANd how far is “too far”??
... born in the town of Bethlehem (”house of bread”), a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek (who offered *bread and wine*) ...
I think some monogram towels with "DonnyBrook" are in order for the couple:)
LOL! Oh, I believe you! NOTHING surprises me anymore :) That’s why I LOVE irony, it makes for pleasant surprises in this present evil world!
Sadly(?) they’ve gone their separate ways. Too many donnybrooks in their marriage..no kidding..:)
All of these things were things Adam should have been able to give to his children merely by begetting them. Their absence is what original sin consists of, not any objectively real "sin nature".
— In my Dominican parish, the current pastor and his predecessor (now the prior of the Province) have both been very explicit about saying that a personal encounter with Christ is an essential “moment” in the Christian life.
— I am currently in a conversation on facebook about the way that Catholics too often use dogma and sacrament as shields to protect them from that personal encounter. I referred to Jeremiah's slam about “The Temple of the Lord.”
— And, of course, it bears repeating that the old joke is,”I don't believe in organized religion, I'm a Catholic.”
My Tiber swimming was certainly influenced not so much by “order” as by a rational account of “authority.” As an Episcopalian clergyman I saw I group which turned away from every concept of “apostolic” authority that might turn out to be inconvenient. And while I thought that being ordained necessarily implied an approach to daily life that involved living “to Godward,” as somebody once said, I found that I was alone in that thought.
I know there are other pastors and lay folk in Protestant denominations who lead very holy lives. But that is also true of SOME Catholics. I do NOT get order. I have dealt with/worked with Catholic ordained folks who were, well, not “docile to the Magisterium” as we say.
But I found that in my daily life, which involves prayerful interaction with Scripture, and in my studies I was encountering a clear, though often ignored,unfolding of the Gospel.
Yeah, I know we can argue about whether I was mistaken in that. But the point you raise is about the longing for order, and it's that point I am responding to.
“All the [Catholic] things” can be a snare, an illusion,a distraction,even an idol. But not all of us, by God's delivering grace, fall into that distraction or idolatry.
To put it in Biblical terms? Grace is not static, it is dynamic and belongs to God. Faith is also dynamic, always in action (ref Acts of the Apostles). The only way I know someone can "lose" Grace is to deny the Power of God's Grace to save. If someone denies His Grace, then they never trusted in Him in the first place and never knew Him.
If we believe our actions count one jot or tittle towards salvation then it is no longer Grace.
I know the next question so will answer it. Does this give 'motivation' for someone in God's Grace to sin as they see fit? As Paul says in Romans "May it NEVER be!" By Grace through faith we establish the Law.
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