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Who Needs Works?
What The Bible Says About ^ | Rev John Odhner

Posted on 03/15/2014 5:31:38 AM PDT by DaveMSmith

It seems to be a matter of common sense to say that good people will go to heaven and evil people will go to hell. Something would be terribly wrong if God could send an innocent, sincere, charitable, helpful person to hell. Yet sometimes people suggest that a person's salvation depends upon his faith alone, and not upon the good things he does, or how he lives, or whether he obeys the Ten Commandments. The Bible never mentions "faith alone" (except in one passage which says faith alone is dead--James 2:24) The concept first came into existence during the Reformation, when Luther and other Protestants split away from the Roman Catholic Church. Luther's concept of how a person gets to heaven was different from what had been taught by the Catholic Church. Luther's phrase "faith alone" emphasized this difference.

In the early Christian Church there was no controversy about whether a person could be saved by faith alone without obeying the Lord and living well. Early Christians knew that loving the Lord meant obeying His commandments, (Matthew 19:17; John 14:21; 15:10) and that salvation depended on bearing fruit (that is, doing good works). (Matthew 7:19; 16:27; 21:43; Luke 3:9; John 5:29; 15:1-16; Revelation 20:13; 22:12) In fact there are so many passages which say that a good life is necessary, that it would be quite a contradiction if the Bible did say that faith alone is enough.

Probably the closest the Bible comes to mentioning "faith alone" is Paul's phrase, "man is justified by faith without the works of the law." (Romans 3:28) Sometimes this phrase has been used to defend or promote the idea that man is saved by faith alone. But if we look at Paul's statement in context we can see that Paul was simply saying that you can be saved without being a Jew. (Read Romans 3:28-31) Some early Christians felt that to be a good Christian, one should obey all the ritual laws of the Jewish Church. "Certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, `Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.'" (Acts 15:1) Now Paul knew that it made no difference to the Lord whether a person was circumcised or not, so he made it clear that it is not necessary to keep the laws about washing, sacrifices, offerings, holy days, diet, and circumcision. (Colossians 2:16; Galatians 2; Romans 3; 2:25-28; Hebrews 8-10) "Does this blessedness then come only on the circumcised, and not on the uncircumcised also?" (Romans 4:9) "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what counts." (1 Corinthians 7:19) "In Jesus Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working by love." (Galatians 5:6) Paul says here not "faith alone," but "faith which works by love". Faith, works and love are all necessary.

These and other references make it clear that when Paul said a man is saved by faith without the works of the law, he meant that a person is saved without circumcision and other ritualistic works. There are other laws, which relate not to ritual but to living well, as for example the Ten Commandments and laws such as "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Leviticus 19:18) Paul made it clear that it was necessary to keep these laws in order to be saved. He said, "Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, not adulterers, nor homosexuals... nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9,10; see also Galatians 5:19-20) Paul had no thought at all of doing away with the law: "Do we abrogate the law through faith? Far from it! We establish the law." (Romans 3:31) He knew that salvation depended on action, not just on faith: "Not the hearers of the law shall be justified by God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." (Romans 2:13) And he taught that every loving person will obey God's law: "Love does no harm to a neighbor: therefore love is the fulfillment of he law." (Romans 13:10)

It is clear from the passages above that according to Paul, we must keep the Lord's commandments and live a good life in order to be saved. This agrees completely with what other disciples said about living well. What could be more direct that this statement of James: "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?... Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.... By works a person is justified, and not by faith alone." (James 2:14-24) John showed that you can't have faith unless you love others when he said, "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." (1 John 4:8) He also taught that we can and should obey God's commands: "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:3)

For any Christian, the way to eternal life is to follow Jesus and do as He says. And what He says is very plain: "If you will enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17) This is not only the way to life, but the way to happiness: "If you know these things, happy are you if you do them." (John 13:17) It is the way to love the Lord: "He who has My commandments, and keeps them, he it is who loves Me." (John 14:21) And it is the way to be His friend: "You are my friends if you do whatever I command you." (John 15:14)


TOPICS: Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: commandments; faithalone; newchurch
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To: avenir

>>“The power of sin is the Law”. Grace is the only option for believers, and I suggest again that, just as many Israelites bizarrely refused to look at the lifted up serpent, so do many today refuse to look to Christ ALONE. He did the work. Resting in that finished work allows a person to freely “work hard in The Lord” without falling under the curse of the Law.<<

Post of the day.


51 posted on 03/15/2014 12:41:55 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter
Acts of the Apostles has many examples of those who hear the Gospel believe, received the Holy Spirit and were baptized.

And that is stated up front, before anyone has the opportunity to sit back and judge their works to see if they were saved or not.

52 posted on 03/15/2014 1:04:55 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: Rashputin; redleghunter
Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Saved by grace when we were yet dead in our trespasses and sins. Before we did any *good works*.

Saved by grace, the GIFT of God SO THAT NO MAN CAN BOAST.

If our works count towards anything pertaining to attaining our salvation, then we have something to boast about before God. And He has already disallowed that.

The good works we are to do to walk in are works HE prepared for us to to, to walk in them, to walk them out. Even the works are a gift from Him. They are prepared by Him for us ahead of time so that we can do them. So we can't even take credit for the good works we walk in, so that no man can boast.

Catholicism allows too much room for boasting before God and man. And that is seen regularly here when non-Catholics are being condemned for not doing good works which no one has any way of knowing whether someone is doing them or not.

But that doesn't stop Catholics from sitting in judgment on non-Catholics, accusing them of not doing good works, but rather sinning with impunity, presuming on the goodness of God, all the while not knowing a THING about the life of the person they're accusing.

If our works contributed to our salvation, it would not be on the basis of God's grace and mercy, and it would not be a gift.

The chutzpah displayed by Catholics with their spiritual pride for *belonging to the OTC* is staggering.

53 posted on 03/15/2014 1:18:04 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: redleghunter
Indeed. On the other hand it may be a function of some don’t want to give up the darkness for light. So believing they can redeem themselves by works they think any good works or penance will overwhelm the bad.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

These are all people who appealed to their good works to save them.

54 posted on 03/15/2014 1:20:32 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: redleghunter

Acts has accounts also of how they helped each other in their community, correct? Sharing food, etc.


55 posted on 03/15/2014 1:23:24 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: redleghunter
So believing they can redeem themselves by works they think any good works or penance will overwhelm the bad.

But God's standard is absolute perfection, not good outweighing the bad. That's man's thinking.

Matthew 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

James 2:10-11 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Seems that Catholics neglect to post these verses.

Be perfect. The one who fails in one part of the Law becomes guilty of it all.

And we know that the wages of sin is death. That's why our works don't contribute to attaining or keeping our salvation. They are tainted with sin, even the best of them, and cannot erase the debt we already owe. That is only done by forgiveness.

56 posted on 03/15/2014 1:27:20 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: Salvation; redleghunter
Acts has accounts also of how they helped each other in their community, correct? Sharing food, etc.

Yeah. So?

Is that how they got saved?

Is that how they stayed saved?

Or do you suppose that those are the works that God prepared for them beforehand to walk in and they did it out of obedience, not to stay saved but because they were saved?

57 posted on 03/15/2014 1:29:37 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: redleghunter

We all need to remember that Catholics do not believe in “earning” their way into heaven through ‘works’.

But it doesn’t hurt to follow the words of Christ as posted above.


58 posted on 03/15/2014 1:30:13 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

James 2:23 NKJV

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.


59 posted on 03/15/2014 1:36:52 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: Rashputin

James 2:23 NKJV

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.


60 posted on 03/15/2014 1:37:19 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: Salvation

I agree. Who isn’t sharing? The majority of Christians in America are Protestant/Evangelical. America is the most giving country in the world.

So was the sharing and giving in Acts a function of fearing God’s Wrath or a function of emulating the Love Christ had for us?


61 posted on 03/15/2014 1:52:37 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: metmom

The verse neglected is the one right before:

James 2:23 NKJV

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.


62 posted on 03/15/2014 1:54:12 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: G Larry

go play fish with someone else


63 posted on 03/15/2014 1:55:26 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: redleghunter
Acts 16 does indeed show the Power of God - a miracle which impressed the jailer. Such miracles do not happen today and if they did, would probably not result in lasting faith.

For me, I read the Bible and many books on theology but was stuck that I could not break free of sin (which included Paul's 95 plus behaviors to avoid). I could not seem to grasp what repentance was all about. I believed in the Lord, but nothing seemed to work.

Finally, I started working a 12 step program, then things started to happen. I had to trust God and surrender to Him. I had to begin a self examination process and list my bad behaviors, who I held resentments to, my fears and sexual conduct. I had to admit these to God, myself and my sponsor. I had to ask God to remove these. I had to resist temptation to repeat these bad behaviors and change my life, with the Lord's help. I consider this hard work and it is the very definition of the repentance process.

Over a period of several months, I was tested and tempted, but I spoke about these things to my sponsor and worked through them. The Lord was finally working in my life and Scripture and my faith came alive. I believe this is followed by reformation then regeneration.

Before I could receive the Lord, I had to clean house. Again - work. Self examination was the hardest thing I ever did - much easier finding fault in others. My faith teaches:

TCR 3[2] "The particular details of faith on man's part are:

1 God is one, in whom is the Divine Trinity, and He is the Lord God the Saviour Jesus Christ.

2 Faith leading to salvation is believing in Him.

3 Evil actions must not be done because they are the work of the devil and come from him.

4 Good actions must be done because they are the work of God and come from Him.

5 A person must perform these actions as if they were his own, but he must believe they come from the Lord working in him and through him.

The first two points deal with faith, the second two with charity; and the fifth deals with the joining of charity with faith and thus of the Lord with men."

That's my testimony.

Psalm 44:8 NKJV
In God we boast all day long, And praise Your name forever.

64 posted on 03/15/2014 2:06:37 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith
In the early Christian Church there was no controversy about whether a person could be saved by faith alone without obeying the Lord and living well. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~∞ That is the most ridiculous explanation of Sola Fide I have ever read. Is this weak article the best you could find?
65 posted on 03/15/2014 2:19:07 PM PDT by Gamecock
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To: DaveMSmith

Thank you for your testimony. I don’t think there is a “canned” way one is led to the cross and empty tomb. However your testimony shows Who was leading you out of darkness into the Light. Repentance involves a change of heart and a transformation of the mind. All the work of God.

What you call hard work indeed Paul would agree as he mentions warring with the flesh. Salvation is Christ’s work indeed. Those who submit to Him as Lord have a lot of work to do as the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few.


66 posted on 03/15/2014 2:27:27 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: Gamecock
Try this: Salvation
67 posted on 03/15/2014 2:27:37 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: Salvation

Correct. Works justifies or confirms what your inner condition is. Fruit confirms/justifies the nature of the tree. Good works are the result of faith. Faith is not the result of good works. Paul had plenty of ‘good works’ but without true faith those works were as filthy rags. After Paul had established a true relationship with God his faith allowed God to do good works thru him(Paul). Paul’s good works came not for need of approval or for reward but because of his changing nature, a nature which produced ‘good works’ naturally. A nature which was now becoming occupied by Christ.


68 posted on 03/15/2014 2:44:34 PM PDT by yadent
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To: DaveMSmith

Isn’t that what I said? :)

That’s what being reprobate means, not being able or willing to repent.


69 posted on 03/15/2014 3:30:06 PM PDT by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults)
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To: DaveMSmith; Jonty30; Pan_Yan; .45 Long Colt; Nifster; AppyPappy; Loud Mime; Joe 6-pack; ...

The issue of faith versus works is relatively simply: Rm 4 is not simply saying one can be saved without becoming Jewish, but that they are saved without the works-merit system of the Law, thus he also tells Greeks "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)

God justifies the UnGodly by faith, not by making them morally perfect, but like as helpless Abraham could not begat a vast nation, but believed God and it was counted for righteous, so God imputes faith as righteousness for the unGodly, but regenerates them so they will live Godly — and repent when convicted of not doing so.

For saving faith is a living faith that cannot help but confess the Lord, and which confession is confirmatory of saving faith. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:10) "We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;" (2 Corinthians 4:13) "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." (Hebrews 6:9) "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:14)

And baptism under water is the normative initial confession of Jesus as Lord, but which is not essentially different from confession with the mouth insofar as it is a volitional act.

And thus works of faith by the Spirit are necessary for salvation in the sense that without such works there is no faith. And which (contrary to the Roman Catholic straw man of sola fide) reformers preached:

In his Introduction to Romans, Luther stated that saving faith is, “a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt] “

This is what I have often said, if faith be true, it will break forth and bear fruit. If the tree is green and good, it will not cease to blossom forth in leaves and fruit. It does this by nature. I need not first command it and say: Look here, tree, bear apples. For if the tree is there and is good, the fruit will follow unbidden. If faith is present works must follow.” [Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:340-341]

Contemporary evangelical theologian R. C. Sproul writes,

The relationship of faith and good works is one that may be distinguished but never separated...if good works do not follow from our profession of faith, it is a clear indication that we do not possess justifying faith. The Reformed formula is, “We are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.”[[“Essential Truths of the Christian Faith,” Google books] More.

And as faith in effect is synonymous with works, then like as Christ said, "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?," (Mark 2:9) so to believe is to obey. And thus Abraham can be said to be saved by works, as that is faith in action, justifying him as one that truly does believe and is saved. (Ja. 2)

HOWEVER DaveMSmith evidently has you all believing that he is arguing like a Catholic versus Protestant, or as a Christian, when in realiyy DaveMSmith belongs to occult led by a man vainly "puffed up by his fleshly mind" and who almost makes Joseph Smith looks sober, and with whom we have dealt with before: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3023264/posts?page=118#118 (and see links) That cult being Swedenborgism. And it is his expressed desire to use FR to post his deceitful Bible studies

He tried this already and was exposed by more than me, yet he simply tries it again. There was a reason i distinctly said he rejects half the Bible as being the very wholly inspired word of God, for Borg rejects Biblical books that in his supreme cultic judgment have an i”nternal sense.” Which Smith will deny despite being shown the evidence. And as told said, quoting things from sources that affirm some truths, as Paul in quoting pagans twice, does not mean they are Scripture.

For as shown before, Borg himself states in his verbose Arcana Coelestia (10325):

The books of the Word are all those which have an internal sense; and those which have not an internal sense are not the Word. [eph. mine]

The books of the Word in the Old Testament are the five books of Moses, the book of Joshua, the book of Judges, the two books of Samuel, the two books of Kings, the Psalms of David, the Prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi;

and in the New Testament the four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; and Revelation. - http://www.sacred-texts.com/swd/ac/ac207.htm

Consistent with this criteria by which Born rejects sacred books of the Bible, he writes,

Solomon composed the Song of Songs, a book that is not a sacred one because it does not inwardly contain heavenly and Divine matters forming a continuous train of thought, such as sacred books contain.- Arcana Coelestia (Elliott) n. 9942 http://www.e-swedenborg.com/writings/static/d8086/9942.htm

And the Borg did and does lead a church, the "new church," as even while he did not personally establish it, yet he foretold it, prepared for it, and his words required it, and is the leader of it thru his teachings that they follow it. However, Christians follow Christ, who foretold of His church, and began it after his resurrection, and whom real believers follow thru the Scriptures. Borg is simply another deluded antiChrist. May God grant you repentance unto surrender to Christ the Lord.

"It will be seen that there is not a single genuine truth remaining in the church, and also that unless a new church shall be raised up in the place of the present one..." "...the beginning of a new church, is now at hand." " " ..there is at this day an end of the former church and the beginning of a new church.." "Also that blessed are those that come to the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:9). This took place on the nineteenth day of June, 1770". - Swedenborg, "True Christian Religion;" http://www.sacred-texts.com/swd/tcr/tcr16.htm

70 posted on 03/15/2014 3:40:39 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212; DaveMSmith

Swedenborgism? That flaky cult? So he’s like a Proto-Mormon. I bet they get along.


71 posted on 03/15/2014 3:44:05 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; Alex Murphy
So he’s like a Proto-Mormon.

He reminds me of Smith, and in fact a faithful Mormon scholar, Craig Miller has wrote a lengthy paper titled "Did Swedenborg Influence Mormon Doctrine?." Miller lists 19 unique similarities between Swendenborg's fantasy of a "Celestial Kingdom" and that of Joseph Smith's imagination. http://craigwmiller.tripod.com/interest.htm#Unique%20Similarities

72 posted on 03/15/2014 3:59:42 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

The Borg? Are you on drugs?


73 posted on 03/15/2014 4:30:46 PM PDT by AppyPappy
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To: Salvation; .45 Long Colt
>>Jesus talked about "works" a lot.<<

Only once, when He was asked.

“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29

Evidently what you think are works and what He said are works are at odds.

74 posted on 03/15/2014 4:30:52 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: daniel1212

Differences in Catholics/Protestants viewpoint

Difference 1: Faith Is Not Enough - Catholic/Orthodox teaching says certain works (rituals or sacraments are needed to be saved. Protestants say sincere faith is all that is needed.

“What good is it my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?...You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone...faith without deeds is dead.” (Jas. 2:14-26)

Difference 2: Salvation Is A Process. - Catholic/Orthodox teaching emphasizes the process of salvation. Protestants emphasize salvation as an event. Catholics emphasize a process of salvation while Protestant teaching more often refers to salvation as an event in time when we were forgiven (justification) followed by the process of becoming holy (sanctification)

“When an unclean spirit goes out of someone it roams through arid regions searching for rest but finding it none, it says, ‘I shall return to my home from which I came.” But upon returning it finds it swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and brings back seven other spirits more wicked than itself who move in and dwell there and the condition of that person is worse than the first.” (Lk 11:24-26)

“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,” (Phil 2:12)

Difference 3: No Assurance of Salvation. - Catholics believe that there is no assurance of Salvation which is why we have the Sacrament of Penance. We recognize that the love of Christ requires that we remain obedient to His commands. Jesus, as perfected in the Beatitudes, spoke very clearly about the way we needed to conduct our lives in order to attain heaven. Mainstream Protestants, by contrast, emphasize that since their salvation rests wholly on the mercy of Christ and that they can be sure they are going to heaven as long as they continue in repentance and faith. Some Protestants differ even more radically with the belief in the Perseverance of the Saints, the claim that once saved Salvation cannot be lost or forfeited by actions, sin or lack of works. ”

“It is the one who endures to the end who will be saved.” (Mt 10:22, 24:13)

Difference 4: Justification Combined With Salvation. - Catholics often treat justification and sanctification as one thing. Protestants treat them separately. Orthodox teaches that justification (forgiveness) and sanctification (becoming holy) are one process which they call theosis. Catholic Teaching, combines justification (forgiveness of sins) with sanctification (becoming holy): justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

Difference Five: There is no Salvation outside the Church. - The Catholic Church teaches that there is no Salvation outside the Church. Protestant doctrine is the antithesis of this. The teaching that one cannot be saved outside of the Catholic Church is founded in every Scripture passage citing Jesus Christ, and the the Church He founded as necessary for salvation. Prior to the Protestant Reformation in the 1500’s and from the time of Christ, all Christians who were not practicing heretical or pagan beliefs were members of the Catholic Church.


75 posted on 03/15/2014 4:40:18 PM PDT by G Larry (There's the Beef!)
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To: Salvation

Yes. I agree with what Paul said about the Law in his letters (that he learned from the risen Lord).

Do I understand it all? No. But by faith I believe it.


76 posted on 03/15/2014 4:49:43 PM PDT by avenir (I'm pessimistic about man, but I'm optimistic about GOD!)
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To: G Larry; Nifster
>>“Faith without works is dead”<<

“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29

Jesus Christ

77 posted on 03/15/2014 4:49:55 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: G Larry
Catholic/Orthodox teaching says certain works (rituals or sacraments are needed to be saved.

Difference 6. Protestant faith saves just like it says in the scripture Eph 4. Catholics say the above, but leave out the requirements of faith in certain dogmas of the church.

Difference 7. Protestant believes the Bible contains all that is necessary to be wise unto salvation, 2 Timothy 3:15. Not surprisingly, so does scripture. Catholics believe that the extra-scriptural means, tradition, dogmas etc etc are required. Protestants agree with God on this, Catholics with their church.

78 posted on 03/15/2014 4:51:28 PM PDT by xone
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To: AppyPappy
The Borg? Are you on drugs?

As it came to be called for short during our past extensive expose of Swedenborg. And it is him that might as well have been on drugs. As you one of his followers?

79 posted on 03/15/2014 4:53:59 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Salvation; yadent
>>“Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?” James 2:24<<

“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29

80 posted on 03/15/2014 4:54:16 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear; xone

I refer you both to my post #50.


81 posted on 03/15/2014 5:00:26 PM PDT by G Larry (There's the Beef!)
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To: DaveMSmith
Before I could receive the Lord, I had to clean house. Again - work. Self examination was the hardest thing I ever did - much easier finding fault in others. My faith teaches:

Christianity is not a self-help program.

You don't need to clean house to accept Christ. HE's the one who cleans it for you.

All our righteousness is as filthy rags to Him. Any effort on our part to become worthy of receiving Him is wasted. He meets us where we are, just as He did with the real live people he met here when HE walked on this earth.

He NEVER told anyone to clean up their act before they could come to Him for something.

He ministered to them were they were, in the condition they were in.

While we were still sinners, Christ died for us, not after we became good enough.

82 posted on 03/15/2014 5:08:37 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: G Larry

I’ll refer you back to Jesus answer to the question.


83 posted on 03/15/2014 5:08:55 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: G Larry
I refer you both to my post #50.

I refer you to the 2 Tim passage. And to the lack of scriptural support for the things Catholics must believe to get salvation.

84 posted on 03/15/2014 5:14:55 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone

THIS is NOT a “lack of scriptural support”!!!!

James 2:24
James 2:26
Gal 5:6
1 Cor 13:2
John 14:15
Matt 19:16-17

Romans 8:24
Eph 2:5,8
2 Tim 1:9
Tit 3:5

Phil 2:12
1 Peter 1:9

Matt 10:22
Matt 24:13
Mark 8:35
Acts 15:11
Romans 5:9-10
Romans 13:11
1 Cor 3:15
1 Cor 5:5
Heb 9:28
Matt 7:21 - not everyone saying “Lord, Lord” will inherit the kingdom of heaven
Matt 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Romans 11:22 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
1 Cor 9:27 - drive body for fear of being disqualified
1 Cor 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure may fall
Gal 5:4 - separated from Christ, you’ve fallen from grace
2 Tim 2:11-13 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ
Hb 6:4-6 - describes sharers in Holy spirit who then fall away
Heb10:26-27 - if you sin after receiving the truth, judgement remains


85 posted on 03/15/2014 5:18:36 PM PDT by G Larry (There's the Beef!)
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To: CynicalBear

Christ also answers the question in these passages:

John 14:15
Matt 19:16-17
Matt 10:22
Matt 24:13
Mark 8:35
Matt 7:21 - not everyone saying “Lord, Lord” will inherit the kingdom of heaven
Matt 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved


86 posted on 03/15/2014 5:29:21 PM PDT by G Larry (There's the Beef!)
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To: G Larry
Difference 1: Faith Is Not Enough

Did you read what i wrote? Then evidence by interacting with it rather than just pasting a prepared polemic that looks like you copied from someone else.

Faith is what instrumentally appropriates justification, which Rome even allows for under contritio caritate perfecta, but works are necessary as confirmatory of true faith, without which there is evidence of faith. But if one must manifest works to be justified, then the Gentiles in Acts 10 were not saved when they believed, and death bed conversions are impossible.

Difference 2: Salvation Is A Process. -

Are you ignorant of classic Prot soterilogy, or only schooled in RC strawmen?

As a Reformed site (http://www.fundamentallyreformed.com/2011/01/18/salvation-in-the-present-tense/) states,

The Bible actually speaks of three tenses when it comes to salvation: we have been saved (in the past: Eph. 2:5,8, 2 Tim. 1:9, Tit. 3:5), we also will ultimately be saved (in the future: Rom, 5:91 Thess. 5:9-10, 1 Pet. 1:5), and we are being saved now (in the present: 1 Cor. 1:18, 15:1-2, 2 Cor. 2:15).

Difference 3: No Assurance of Salvation.

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)

Thus a believer may have assurance he presently has eternal life, based on evidences. Also, while believers are warned against falling away, (Gal., 5:1-4; Heb. 3:12; 10:38) yet they can have confidence Christ will keep them and can walk in faith so they do not fall:

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philippians 1:6)

"But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." (1 Corinthians 11:32)

"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:10-11)

Difference 4: Justification Combined With Salvation. - Catholics often treat justification and sanctification as one thing. Protestants treat them separately. Orthodox teaches that justification (forgiveness) and sanctification (becoming holy) are one process which they call theosis. Catholic Teaching, combines justification (forgiveness of sins) with sanctification (becoming holy): justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

A distinction without a difference as described, as classic Prot theology holds that at the moment of a conversion, "ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:11)

The difference is that in Scripture one is not justified by the act of baptism, but the faith that is behind it.(ACts 15:7-9) Nor is one justified due to moral perfection so that the soul could go to glory the moment he is baptized, and thus must usually end up in purgatory in order to become good enough to enter Heaven, but thru faith one is washed and justified on Christ's blood-expense and righteousness, and thus those who die in faith will be saved. With their works evidencing they are believers, and being recompensed in God's convenantal faithfulness in grace to souls who in justice deserve Hell.

Difference Five: There is no Salvation outside the Church. - The Catholic Church teaches that there is no Salvation outside the Church. Protestant doctrine is the antithesis of this. The teaching that one cannot be saved outside of the Catholic Church is founded in every Scripture passage citing Jesus Christ, and the the Church He founded as necessary for salvation.

There is no Salvation outside the Church. The difference being the church in this sense in the NT is not one particular church, but the body of Christ, which is visible wherever the evangelical gospel is preached, and born again men ordained to led it, baptize, etc.

Meanwhile the Catholic teaching of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is subject to interpretation, some including baptized Prots who die faithful, while others even exclude the EOs. Take your pick.

Meanwhile,

<

Some conflicts: Byzantine vs.

Latin

The Orthodox Church opposes the Roman doctrines of universal papal jurisdiction, papal infallibility, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception precisely because they are untraditional." - Orthodox apologist and author Clark Carlton: THE WAY: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church, 1997, p 135.

Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church.. — http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076

The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God.

Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatoral punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory. — http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076

What I found most disturbing in my reading was that the Orthodox objected to the doctrine [of the Immaculate Conception] not so much because of its proclamation of Mary as immaculate (indeed, the Orthodox liturgy repeatedly refers to Mary as "all holy ... .. immaculate," and "most blessed") but because of the erroneous understanding of original sin underlying it...

I sadly concluded that the erroneous Roman understanding of original sin had led to another erroneous teaching, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. The dogma was clearly an unwarranted innovation.

It was much the same with the dogma of papal infallibility. This doctrine asserts that when the pope speaks ex cathedra, "from the throne," or officially, on matters of faith and morals, he teaches infallibly. Thus the whole Church is bound by his teaching. Orthodoxy and Catholicism - What are the differences - "Father" Theodore Pulcini ISBN 978-1-888212-23-5 [69] http://almoutran.com/2011/03/251

Despite the high honor and the highest admiration which the Orthodox Church bestows upon the Virgin Mary Theotokos, it does not teach either her immaculate conception or her bodily assumption into the heavens.,

The west, in altering the Creed without consulting the east, is guilty (as Khomiakov put it) of moral fratricide, of a sin against the unity of the Church. In the second place, most Orthodox believe the Filioque to be theologically untrue. They hold that the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, and consider it a heresy to say that He proceeds from the Son as well. There are, however, some Orthodox who consider that the Filioque is not in itself heretical,. and is indeed admissible as a theological opinion - not a dogma - provided that it is properly explained. But even those who take this more moderate view still regard it as an unauthorized addition.

That was how an Orthodox felt in the twelfth century, when the whole question had come out into the open. In earlier centuries the Greek attitude to the Papacy was basically the same, although not yet sharpened by controversy. Up to 850, Rome and the east avoided an open conflict over the Papal claims, but the divergence of views was not the less serious for being partially concealed. — http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/TheGreatSchism.htm

It is evident from the Scripture that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only; this was the belief from the very beginning of the One Undivided Church. When the church in the West inserted the "filioque" phrase into the Creed, this innovation precipitated the Great Schism of the Undivided Church. The "filioque" phrase is an error. It is not found in the Scripture. It was not believed by the Undivided Church for eight centuries, including the church in the West. It introduces a strange teaching of a double procession of the Holy Spirit and refers to two origins of the Spirit's existence, thus denying the unity of the Godhead.

The Church of Christ from the beginning baptized its members by a priest immersing them thrice in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Immersion baptism was the practice of the early Church.

...the synods of the Fathers, as a whole and as individuals, have believed that their decisions are infallible. Their decisions, however, are not considered permanent until they are accepted by the "Conscience of the Church," the whole body of the faithful, clergy and laity, who must give their consent.— http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7063

Within a reintegrated Christendom the bishop of Rome will be considered primus inter pares serving the unity of God's Church in love. He cannot be accepted as set up over the Church as a ruler whose diakonia is conceived through legalistic categories of power of jurisdiction. His authority must be understood, not according to standards of earthly authority and domination, but according to terms of loving ministry and humble service (Matt. 20:25 27).- http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith8523

In the Nicene Creed of faith our Church is described as the "One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church": "One" because there can only be one true Church with one head Who is Christ... Each of these titles is limiting in some respects, since they define Christians belonging to particular historical or regional Churches of the Orthodox communion..

“because it has all the proper attributes, the Orthodox Church is the living realization of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.” — http://www.antiochian.org/node/17076

Then there are those who attempt to join together all Christian religions into one faith. They would be horrified at the idea of a service with Hindus and Christians celebrating together, yet they do not bat an eyelash at the idea of Orthodox celebrating with Roman Catholics, who with no authority broke off from the Church close to a thousand years ago. — http://www.orthodox.net/articles/against-ecumenism.html

The Church preserves unity in diversity. In the Orthodox Church there is no hierarch with universal jurisdiction since its One True Shepherd, our Lord Jesus, has never left His Church (Matthew 28:20). The Apostle Peter does not replace or substitute for Him. The Scriptures do indeed indicate that Peter exercises an important role as leader among the Apostles but his primacy is exercised in equality or collegiality ("primus inter pares") as the Book of Acts clearly shows. The Rock upon which the Church is built is our Lord Himself as we proclaim during Matins: "The Stone which the builders rejected has become the Cornerstone; this is the Lord's doing and it is marvelous in our eyes" (from Psalm 118:2 - also the most often repeated phrase from the Old in the New Testament: Matthew 21:42, Mark 12:10, Luke 20:17, Acts 4:11 and 1 Peter 2:7). Peter, a leader among the Apostles, was first to proclaim the Church's faith in our Lord upon Whom it is built: "You are the the Christ (i.e. the Messiah, God's Chosen and Annointed One - igk), the Son of the Living God" (Matthew 16:15). He did not see himself as that Rock. Such, at any rate, is the conviction of the Orthodox Church. — http://www.ukrainian-orthodoxy.org/questions/2007/appostolic.html

Roman Catholic historian, Francis Dvornick, states:...the question of the apostolic character of a see was viewed in quite different fashion in the East. There had been many important sees in the East which had been founded by an Apostle: this was the case for Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria and Ephesus. - (Francis Dvornik, Byzantium and the Roman Primacy (New York: Fordham University, 1966), p. 43)

The East never accepted the regular jurisdiction of Rome, nor did it submit to the judgment of Western bishops. Its appeals to Rome for help were not connected with a recognition of the principle of Roman jurisdiction but were based on the view that Rome had the same truth, the same good. - Yves Congar, Diversity and Communion (Mystic: Twenty-Third, 1982), p. 26). More .

The Orthodox Church believes that the Church exists where: 1) there is Apostolic Succession; 2) where the traditions and canons of the Church are preserved; 3) and where a right-believing Bishop in Apostolic Succession shepherds his people in good order according to these traditions and canons.

In the Roman Catholic Church, Apostolic Succession itself resides in the person of the Pope, who is Christ’s Vicar on earth. While modern Latin theologians have tried to restate or even reject it, and while the ecumenical pronouncements of the Latin Church have tried to downplay the significance of Papocentrism, it is the fundamental dogma of Roman Catholicism and a principle repeatedly defended by the present Pope. Even collegiality and shared primacy with the Eastern Patriarchates are subject to the magisterium of the Papacy.

And herein lies one of the most important differences between the Latin and Orthodox Churches in general: the Latin Church’s appeal to the authority of the Roman See and the Orthodox Church’s dependence on the authority of the wholeness of ecclesiastical tradition, the very Body of the Church. - http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/rome_orth.aspx

Roman Catholicism, unable to show a continuity of faith and in order to justify new doctrine, erected in the last century, a theory of "doctrinal development." Following the philosophical spirit of the time (and the lead of Cardinal Henry Newman), Roman Catholic theologians began to define and teach the idea that Christ only gave us an "original deposit" of faith, a "seed," which grew and matured through the centuries. The Holy Spirit, they said, amplified the Christian Faith as the Church moved into new circumstances and acquired other needs.

Consequently, Roman Catholicism, pictures its theology as growing in stages, to higher and more clearly defined levels of knowledge. The teachings of the Fathers, as important as they are, belong to a stage or level below the theology of the Latin Middle Ages (Scholasticism), and that theology lower than the new ideas which have come after it, such as Vatican II.

All the stages are useful, all are resources; and the theologian may appeal to the Fathers, for example, but they may also be contradicted by something else, something higher or newer. On this basis, theories such as the dogmas of "papal infallibility" and "the immaculate conception" of the Virgin Mary (about which we will say more) are justifiably presented to the Faithful as necessary to their salvation. - http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

There is nothing Orthodox about the charismatic movement. It is incompatible with Orthodoxy, in that it justifies itself only by perverting the message of the Fathers, suggesting that the Church of Christ needs renewal, and indulging in the theological imagery of, Pentecostal cultism. With such things, one cannot be too bold in his language of condemnation and reprobation. - http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/charmov.aspx

Vladimir Lossky, a noted modern Eastern Orthodox theologian, argues the difference in East and West is due to the Roman Catholic Church's use of pagan metaphysical philosophy (and its outgrowth, scholasticism) rather than the mystical, actual experience of God called theoria, to validate the theological dogmas of Roman Catholic Christianity. For this reason, Lossky argues that the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics have become "different men".[18] Other Eastern Orthodox theologians such as John Romanides[19] and Metropolitan Hierotheos[20][21] say the same

Roman Catholicism teaches, also, that, in the Age to Come, man will, with his intellect and with the assistance of grace, behold the Essence of God. The Orthodox declare that it is impossible to behold God in Himself. Not even divine grace, will give us such power. The saved will see, however, God as the glorified flesh of Christ.

According to Metropolitan Hierotheos that because the Roman Catholic Church uses philosophical speculation rather that an actual experience of God to derive their theology they are lead into the many errors that Orthodox call into question about their theology including the filioque[66]. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox__Roman_Catholic_theological_differences


CCC 882 For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.

“...the Apostolic See has received and hath government, authority, and power of binding and loosing from the Incarnate Word Himself; and, according to all holy synods, sacred canons and decrees, in all things and through all things, in respect of all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world, since the Word in Heaven who rules the Heavenly powers binds and loosens there" — Defloratio ex Epistola ad Petrum illustrem; http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_29061896_satis-cognitum_en.html.

From this it must be clearly understood that Bishops are deprived of the right and power of ruling, if they deliberately secede from Peter and his successors; because, by this secession, they are separated from the foundation on which the whole edifice must rest. They are therefore outside the edifice itself; and for this very reason they are separated from the fold, whose leader is the Chief Pastor; they are exiled from the Kingdom, the keys of which were given by Christ to Peter alone..

We read that the Roman Pontiff has pronounced judgments on the prelates of all the churches; we do not read that anybody has pronounced sentence on him"..The reason for which is stated thus: "there is no authority greater than that of the Apostolic See" — Post Epistolam, xxvi., ad omnes Episc. Hispan., n. 4

Bellarmine: Besides that, the second affirmation of Cajetan, that the Pope heretic can be truly and authoritatively deposed by the Church, is no less false than the first... it must be observed in the first place that, from the fact that the Pope deposes bishops, it is deduced that the Pope is above all the bishops, though the Pope on deposing a bishop does not destroy the episcopal jurisdiction, but only separates it from that person. — http://www.fisheaters.com/bellarmine.html

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam: “We declare, say, define, and pronounce [ex cathedra] that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

"If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says that there is only one fold and one shepherd (Jn.10:16). Whoever, therefore, resists this authority, resists the command of God Himself. " — Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302) http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius [the eastern “Orthodox” schismatics] and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls?...Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned...” Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, PTC:873) The Promotion of True Religious Unity)

Few Catholics realize that Eastern Orthodoxy, especially as represented by Palamite theology, represents a systematic and comprehensive attack upon Catholic doctrine. Catholic and Orthodox theology are not only in opposition to one another in their understanding of God (theology), but also in the various disciplines of philosophy – in Cosmology, Psychology, Epistemology, Metaphysics, Theodicy, and Ethics. They posit radically different views of God, of man, and of the relationship between God and His creation. Finally, and very crucially, they embrace radically different views of the final destiny of man. In this respect they both employ the concept of "deification", but possess very different understandings of what this term signifies. - http://www.waragainstbeing.com/partiii[Traditionalist]

The chief thing, therefore, is the continued juridical succession of apostolic authority. Now this element precisely is missing from the Greek Orthodox Church. By the mere fact of being in schism, apostolic authority is forfeited. In addition, the Greek Church has not preserved the Faith intact in many points. The Greek Church cannot therefore be called apostolic in the technical sense of that word. — Radio Replies, 1940 | Fathers Rumble & Carty http://celledoor.com/cpdv-ebe/Bible/data/radio_replies_second_volume-239.html

As Peter was given a new name so does the new Supreme Pontiff become known by another. After the election he extends his first blessing to the people -- a Benediction which was not given in the open for years until Pope Pius XI established the custom. The Coronation, one of the most magnificent of Vatican Ceremonies, takes place shortly after the election. With the Pope carried high in a golden chair and attended by brilliantly attired chamberlains and soldiers, the Coronation Mass is an unrivaled spectacle of beauty, dignity, and ancient pageantry. At the Coronation, in the midst of the pomp and splendor, a master of ceremonies recites in Latin: "Holy Father, thus does the glory of the world pass away." As the first Cardinal Deacon places the three-crowned Tiara on the head of the Pope, he says: "Receive the three-crowned Tiara, and know that thou are the Father of Princes and Kings, the Pastor of the earth, and Vicar of Jesus Christ, to Whom be honor and glory forever. Amen." The CORONATION of Pope Pius XII took place on the balcony of St. Peter's in March 1939. (From the book "The Vatican and Holy Year" by Stephen S. Fenichell & Phillip Andrews -- 1950 edition. http://www.users.qwest.net/~slrorer/ReunionOfChristendom.htm)

"The Church has the right,..to admonish or warn its members, ecclesiastical or lay, who have not conformed to its laws and also, if needful to punish them by physical means, that is, coercive jurisdiction." — Catholic encyclopedia, Jurisdiction;http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm

Innocent’s Bull prescribes that captured heretics, being "murderers of souls as well as robbers of God’s sacraments and of the Christian faith, . . . are to be coerced – as are thieves and bandits – into confessing their errors and accusing others, although one must stop short of danger to life or limb." — Bull Ad Extirpanda (Bullarium Romanorum Pontificum, vol. 3 [Turin: Franco, Fory & Dalmazzo, 1858], Lex 25, p. 556a.) (http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html)

[sins] must be expiated [atoned, be compensated] either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or 'purifying' punishments.” — Indulgentiarum Doctrina; cp. 1. 1967; http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html)

‘Since the faithful departed now being purified [i.e. in purgatory] are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted. — CCC 1478,79

It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine...

I may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity. It rests upon its own supernatural and perpetual consciousness. Its past is present with it, for both are one to a mind which is immutable. Primitive and modern are predicates, not of truth, but of ourselves.Most Rev. Dr. Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, Lord Archbishop of Westminster, “The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation,” (New York: J.P. Kenedy & Sons, originally written 1865, reprinted with no date), pp. 227-228.

We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful. — —Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854



87 posted on 03/15/2014 5:35:52 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: redleghunter
"Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" James 2:24

Hardly a contradiction. James is railing against dead faith as any good pastor should be doing if observed in their assembly. Obviously James saw some proclaiming faith in Christ but allowing fellow believers to go naked and cold. How could such a regenerated heart pass a brother in need? I think that was his point and James is right in that matter. Jesus commanded the disciples to love each other as HE loved them. Tall order there. James was pointing IMO if we love Christ we will do what He told us to do. And each according to their God given abilities.

I have to disagree...James is talking about dead works...The verse clearly says a man is justified by his good works along with faith...The Catholic denomination can see that...Some Protestant denominations can see that...

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

We are divided over faith and works vs. faith + nothing...Both positions are presented in the scriptures...

One group takes one side, the other group takes the other...I take both of them...

88 posted on 03/15/2014 5:36:05 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: daniel1212

James 2:24
James 2:26
Gal 5:6
1 Cor 13:2
John 14:15
Matt 19:16-17

Romans 8:24
Eph 2:5,8
2 Tim 1:9
Tit 3:5

Phil 2:12
1 Peter 1:9

Matt 10:22
Matt 24:13
Mark 8:35
Acts 15:11
Romans 5:9-10
Romans 13:11
1 Cor 3:15
1 Cor 5:5
Heb 9:28


Matt 7:21 - not everyone saying “Lord, Lord” will inherit the kingdom of heaven
Matt 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Romans 11:22 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
1 Cor 9:27 - drive body for fear of being disqualified
1 Cor 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure may fall
Gal 5:4 - separated from Christ, you’ve fallen from grace
2 Tim 2:11-13 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ
Hb 6:4-6 - describes sharers in Holy spirit who then fall away
Heb10:26-27 - if you sin after receiving the truth, judgement remains


89 posted on 03/15/2014 5:41:02 PM PDT by G Larry (There's the Beef!)
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To: G Larry

Your argument is with Jesus not me. It’s Him who answered the question when asked. BTW None of those verses you listed change or counter His answer when asked what are works.


90 posted on 03/15/2014 5:43:59 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Salvation
We all need to remember that Catholics do not believe in “earning” their way into heaven through ‘works’.

But it doesn’t hurt to follow the words of Christ as posted above.

How then do Catholics get to heaven???

91 posted on 03/15/2014 5:44:43 PM PDT by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: G Larry
Prior to the Protestant Reformation in the 1500’s and from the time of Christ, all Christians who were not practicing heretical or pagan beliefs were members of the Catholic Church.

You might want to consider reading some history not printed by the Vatican press. The Roman Church was suppressing and arresting scripture believing Christians almost from the time they became the official religion of the empire. The idea of 1500 years of church unity is fantasy at best.

92 posted on 03/15/2014 6:27:45 PM PDT by Pan_Yan (Who told you that you were naked? Genesis 3:11)
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To: Salvation
We all need to remember that Catholics do not believe in “earning” their way into heaven through ‘works’.

But it doesn’t hurt to follow the words of Christ as posted above.

Then why do Catholics quote James 2:24 at us all the time?

So, if works are not necessary for salvation, then why are Catholics not sure they are going to heaven? Why do they figure out they'll find out when they get there and are judged on their (drumroll) works, like you did in posts 21 and 29?

What role to works play in a Catholic's salvation then?

93 posted on 03/15/2014 6:40:49 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: G Larry
THIS is NOT a “lack of scriptural support”!!!!

Really, then point out the passage that covers the Assumption of Mary. Or the infallibility of the Pope, just two of the later dogmas. I'll wait.

94 posted on 03/15/2014 6:49:15 PM PDT by xone
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To: G Larry

Again did you read what i wrote? Then evidence by interacting with it rather than just pasting a prepared polemic that looks like you copied from someone else. If that is all you are going to do then you are engaging in soliloquy


95 posted on 03/15/2014 7:15:54 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: xone

Glad to see you’ve conceded on the point of Salvation.

Regarding Papal Infallibility:
Matt 16:17-19, Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah.


96 posted on 03/15/2014 7:52:30 PM PDT by G Larry (There's the Beef!)
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To: daniel1212

You cut and paste from other sources and yet deny me my references?


97 posted on 03/15/2014 7:55:12 PM PDT by G Larry (There's the Beef!)
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To: G Larry
Papal Infallibility:

I know that Catholic doctrine is based on the slimmest of reeds, but to get papal infallibility from these verses is stretching so far as to be transparent. Perhaps the part of being like unto God is in there someplace.

98 posted on 03/15/2014 8:06:41 PM PDT by xone
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To: daniel1212; metmom
Ironic wasn't it how many FRoman Catholics jumped on the bandwagon for this thread without realizing that it was espousing heretical and cultic doctrines? They recognized in it the same flaw which exists in their own religion - and which ALL religions have in common, so-called Christian or not - that man must do something to deserve or merit the ultimate endgame. True Christianity, on the other hand, is exactly opposite of all other religions in that it is not what man must do to "bind his way back to God", but what God has done FOR man to bind mankind back to God. That IS what grace means - undeserved, unmerited, unearned. We can do nothing FOR God to merit the GIFT of eternal life. Those who understand this sacred truth will be saved, those who continue to grasp onto what they can and must do to deserve heaven will not be.
99 posted on 03/15/2014 9:37:11 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: boatbums

I can understand how both could assume it was a “Christian” posting, but it is a good practice to look up the OP when not familiar.

Yet in the past some RCs would join forces with an antagonistic atheist against us.


100 posted on 03/15/2014 9:48:18 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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