Posted on 06/04/2014 6:52:46 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
In certain schools of Christian thought, hell is not everlasting, but a more painful form of purgatory.
M any Christians presume that hell is a place where brutally painful punishments are inflicted on evildoers for an indefinite, and perhaps infinite, amount of time in the afterlife. Think of a medieval torture chamber with no exit — or fire extinguishers.
But this, as I argued in a recent column, makes no theological sense. If morality is good, then doing the right thing must be its own reward and doing the wrong thing must be its own punishment. To think that a sinner deserves extra, externally imposed suffering presumes that morality isn't good and that those who commit evil deeds benefit from their actions — which is another way of saying that those who do the right thing are fools.
The more theologically sound position is to hold that hell is a state of being, whether in this life or the next, in which we confront our own self-imposed alienation from what is truly good — from God, in other words. This educative punishment can be extremely painful, but the pain flows intrinsically from knowledge of our own immoral acts. It isn't inflicted on us by some external tormenter.
That, at any rate, was my argument.
Let's just say that my readers weren't universally appreciative of it. A fair number of them apparently want very much to believe that a fairly large number of people are going to be made to suffer egregiously in hell for their bad behavior in life.
I suspect that these same readers, and perhaps many more, will be equally adamant that I'm wrong to follow the implications of my argument a few steps further — to assert that Christians have reason to believe that the punishments of hell, whatever they may be, are temporary for all.
That's right: I think it's likely that if there is an afterlife, everyone — even Judas, even Hitler — eventually ends up in heaven.
Now, I'm perfectly willing to concede that several Gospel passages seem to describe an eternity of damnation for at least some people in the afterlife (Matthew 7:13-14, 25:31-46; Mark 9:45-48; Luke 16:23; John 3:36). Though I'd also like to point out that only in one verse (Matthew 25:46) does Jesus speak of something that could plausibly be translated as "eternal punishment," and in words (aeonios kolasis) that could perhaps more accurately be rendered as "eternal correction."
Then there are those contrary passages that seem to imply that God wants everyone — and perhaps even all of creation — to enjoy salvation (Romans 5:18, 11:33-36; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 28; Philippians 2:10-11; Colossians 1:19-20; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 21:4).
This tension — not to say contradiction — has led some thinkers to dismiss or argue away the implications of the latter passages. Of all the church fathers, Tertullian may have gone furthest in this direction, writing at length and in gory detail about the endless sufferings inflicted on sinners in hell, and even suggesting that observing these torments is an important source of the bliss that accompanies salvation in heaven.
The problem with this position is that it seems to be a form of what Friedrich Nietzsche called "Christian malice": A psychological malady in which the stringent self-denial that Christianity demands of its adherents leads them to feel intense resentment for those who are insufficiently ascetic. Nietzsche delighted in showing how this dynamic can turn Christians from preachers of love into hateful fanatics out to inflict suffering on anyone who dares to enjoy life.
Not all Christians have confirmed Nietzsche's critique as perfectly as Tertullian. Others have been driven by theological reflection to move in the opposite direction — to speculate that all people might eventually enjoy salvation in heaven, no matter how awful their worldly sins may have been.
Origen in the 3rd century and Hans Urs von Balthasar in the 20th both affirmed versions of universal salvation. Yet I find the most compelling variation in the writings of the 4th-century theologian Gregory of Nyssa — a major figure in the history of Christianity, though one more widely revered today by the Eastern Orthodox than by the Western churches.
Gregory maintained that hell resembles something like what Catholics have traditionally called purgatory: A place of sometimes excruciatingly painful purgation of sins in preparation for heaven. The pain is not externally inflicted as punishment, but follows directly from the process of purification as the soul progresses toward a perhaps never fully realized union with divine perfection. Gregory describes this process as a "constant progression" or "stretching forth" (epektasis) of oneself toward an ever greater embrace of and merger with God in the fullness of eternity — a transmutation of what is sinful, fallen, and finite into the transcendent beauty of the infinite.
Hell, in this view, would be the state of agonizing struggle to break free from sin, to renounce our moral mistakes, to habituate ourselves to the good, to become ever more like God. Eastern Orthodox theologians (and, interestingly, Mormons, who hold similar views) call it a process of divination or sanctification (theosis) that follows directly from the doctrine of God's incarnation in Jesus Christ. It is a formula found in the writings of Clement of Alexandria, Athanasius, and other ancient theologians: God became a human being so that human beings might become like God.
All human beings.
One imagines that this would be a long, painful process — rendered longer and more painful for those who have fallen furthest from God during their lives. They are the ones for whom the afterlife is truly hellish — like a climb up a peak far, far higher than Mount Everest with little prior preparation or training, no expensive gear, and no Sherpas to help carry the load. But there would eventually be progress toward God, even for the climber who starts out in the worst possible shape, and from the lowest possible point in the valley below.
And at least there would be no dungeon pointlessly presided over by satanic, whip-wielding sadists.
Re: your idea that Revelation uses symbolic language... yes, of course it does. But you seem to take that as a signal that interpreting it is now a “free-for-all”, where any theological (amateur or otherwise) may inject any meaning he wishes onto it... and that simply won’t do.
We either believe that Scripture is the inerrant Word of God, or we don’t. Too many modernist theologians use the word “interpret” as a pass-key for watering down, and for picking and choosing, whatever they like. Is the idea of eternal hell unpleasant? Well, then... *presto*! It’s “interpreted” to mean the precise opposite of what it says (i.e. non-eternal, and non-hell). Don’t like the Scriptural teachings against homosexual activity? *Poof*! They’re now “interpreted” to mean anything and everything BUT a condemnation of those practices. It’s silly, at best... and dishonest and spiritually dangerous, at worst.
As a general rule: unless there’s some concrete and immovable reason (within Scripture or within Sacred Tradition—I’ll leave aside the infallible Magisterium, for the sake of trying to prevent another rabbit-trail of a topic) why a particular passage of Scripture MUST be interpreted non-literally, then we are obligated to give the literal meaning every benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, the entire Bible becomes a farce, and every last passage can be “interpreted” away (e.g. the teaching against murder was obviously symbolic and rooted in primitive OT cultural norms, etc.).
And you can find scripture to support both positions: 1) whether sinners are punished for a while, then destroyed utterly or 2) sinners burn in hellfire for eternity.
The bible in its entirety exposes a great deal about the personality of God. The more you know about Him, the more you know Him. Just like a person you know well, when two witnesses who claim to know the person better than you say the person will do a certain thing based on a certain thing, when one “seems to say” he will do “a” and the other “seems to say” he will do “b”, you have the right to reach into the well of your own knowledge about the persons personality and past actions to make your choice to believe “a” or “b”.
Using that logic, it is VERY easy to believe the lost are annihilated and virtually impossible to accept that God even allows the lost to be tortured for “linear time never ending”. It simply doesn’t match His personality as presented in the entirety of the bible.
It is the starting foundation you have to consider. And yes you are correct that it has to go from there.
Why the term, “second death”? Is eternal torment the same as death?
How do you even know whether a person is an atheist or not?
The problem I see is that you are starting from a false premise, namely that man can be deserving of either Heaven OR hell based on his own actions. You can never be good enough to "deserve" Heaven nor bad enough to "deserve" hell. The sole factor in your eternal destiny is this - what is your relationship with Jesus Christ? It is Christ's sacrifice that washes away or sin and makes us acceptable to God, not our good works. It is our rejection of that sacrifice that condemns us to remain in our sins and dooms us to an eternity apart from Him.
Actually, very well said. :-)
Christians should be sharing the GOOD NEWS, not arguing incessantly about things that don’t even apply to the saved.
I can’t remember the particular scripture, but we are actually told in the Bible specifically to avoid some of these continual arguments.
It’s one reason I sort of “hit and run” these threads. That is all they are worthy of. That is, the points need to be made, not argued.
Mildred Bailey - When That Man Is Dead And Gone Lyrics
Artist: Mildred Bailey
Satan, Satan thought up a plan
Dressed as a man
Walking the earth and since he began
The world is hell for you and me
But what a heaven it will be
When that man is dead and gone
When that man is dead and gone
We’ll go dancing down the street
Kissing everyone we meet
When that man is dead and gone
What a day to wake up on
What a way to greet the dawn
Hap-hap-happy, yes, indeed
On the morning when we read
That that man is dead and gone
We’ve got a date, to celebrate
The day we catch up with that one man spreading hate
His account is overdrawn
And his chances are in pawn
Some fine day the news will flash
Satan with the small mustache
Is asleep beneath the lawn
When that man is dead and gone
Come on, now, we’re going to celebrate
He’s the guy that’s spreading hate
His account is overdrawn
And his chances are in pawn
Some fine day the news will flash
Satan with the small mustache
Is asleep beneath the lawn
When that man is dead and gone
What a day to wake up on
What a way to greet the dawn!
When a certain man is dead and gone
I believe non-eternal Hell is the Jewish perspective as well.
It’s been argued above.
Thanks. I just told him to “see above”. ;-)
The Bible states very clearly that most people in history are NOT among the elect.
It would be a good exercise to find the verses which say this, just so we are clear.
Nowhere does the Bible say almost everyone is going to heaven.
We must get OUR IDEA OF JUSTICE, OUR IMPERFECT HUMAN IDEAS OF JUSTICE, out of our head, and rely on God’s Word, the Bible to tell us what is just and what is not. Regardless of how we “feel” or “think”. Justice is not what people say it is, justice is what God reveals in his Word.
Those who are saved are predestined by God to be saved from before the womb.
It would be a great exercise to do a textual search of the Bible for words like preordain, foundation of the world, etc., which will find the appropriate verses.
It’s hard for humans - especially Americans - to accept predestination. Because we think - immediately - (crying like babies) it’s not fair ! It’s not fair ! It’s stacked against us !
But we’re thinking from God’s viewpoint when we whine like that - but we are not God and should not be so presumptive as to try to think about our lives as though we were God. We should think from OUR viewpoint. WE DO NOT KNOW the future. When you don’t know, you TRY. If your boat is sinking - you try to survive. You don’t know, rescue could come in 5 minutes and you’re saved. We can’t have a “fatalistic” attitude because we do not know the future. As we read the Word of God we should be encouraged - because it clearly says we should be ! It exhorts the reader to live a good Christian life.
None of this is difficult to understand.
But people want a) a guarantee of salvation for themselves b) to be able to keep on sinning their same old sins.
People want to slip back into say, adultery. But what if some hot babe comes along and throws herself at me ??? I won’t be able to help myself !!!! I need a Christian theology that will let me commit that future, pre-meditated sin and allow me a loophole.
Too bad for such a person - if a person is already imagining sinning in the future instead of aiming to “put off the old man” and repent and resolve to sin no more - especially sins they KNOW they committed in the past, then they’re not saved at that point. Because when they’re saved they will realize they must completely turn over their life to Christ because they are “bought with a price”.
It’s scary - I know. I wondered - how could I be sure I would not commit sins that had become part of who I was ???
OK, thank you
there are sure a bunch of people here who don’t want the “lake of fire” to be the lake of fire. understandable.
“I remember being taught that one can never know of the possibility of repentant thought just at the moment of death. I don’t believe some of those people were capable of it...but only God knows..”
As Spurgeon said somewhere, “Will you trifle with his mercy till His justice smite thee?” I’d suggest that any attempt to play God for a fool by timing one’s repentance “just right” be abandoned. As long as it is called “Today”...and “today, if you hear His voice...”
Because God hardens whom he chooses to harden, that voice may be inaudible.
So if the punishment for not accepting Christ is just that you die and are destroyed, is it really a "punishment" to those who don't believe in Christ anyway? When I talk to my parents about this, they are unconcerned about salvation, because in their minds, when they die, they die, and so they won't have any awareness of anything anymore.
Well said, thanks!
I think you may be conflating the physical with the spiritual. Our bodies are mortal, but our souls and spirits are not. “It is appointed unto man once to die; and after this, the judgment.” So while believers may have true eternal life, in glorified bodies, the bodies of the unsaved will not be resurrected - but their spirits will still suffer the torments of hell.
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