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Paul Never Quoted Jesus?
JimmyAkin.com ^ | not given | Jimmy Akin

Posted on 06/07/2014 11:13:33 AM PDT by Salvation

Paul Never Quoted Jesus?

by Jimmy Akin

A common claim in some skeptical circles is that St. Paul never quoted Jesus.

A second common claim is that, if he had reliable knowledge of Jesus, he would have quoted him.

The conclusion that is drawn from these premises is that St. Paul was not a reliable source on Jesus.

Since St. Paul’s letters are among the earliest works of the New Testament, some proceed from there to argue either that historical knowledge of Jesus is impossible or even that he didn’t exist.

Such arguments are highly problematic.

 

The Second Premise

First, let’s consider the premise that Paul should have quoted Jesus if he had reliable knowledge of him.

Is that true?

It would be true if, in his letters, Paul was offering detailed catechesis on the life and ministry of Jesus (the way the Gospels do).

However, if Paul is not intending to offer detailed catechesis about the life and ministry of Jesus, he would have much less occasion to quote him.

The fact is that St. Paul’s epistles do not attempt to offer detailed catechesis. He is writing largely in a pastoral vein, dealing, for example, with various problems that have arisen in the churches he has founded or is planning to visit.

As a result, he would have much less occasion to quote Jesus. The only time it would be relevant for him to do so is if Jesus said something directly relevant to the problem he is dealing with.

Even then, he need not do so. Just because Jesus said something relevant does not mean that it must be quoted.

Christians today write on all kinds of subjects without being forced to quote everything Jesus said that might be relevant to the issue at hand.

 

The First Premise

Then there’s the first premise–that Paul never quoted Jesus.

Um, dude? 1 Corinthians 11?

[23] For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread

[24] and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 

[25] In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 

Is that the only time? Nope. Off the top of my head, there’s also 1 Timothy 6:

[18] for the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” 

That’s a quotation of a saying of Jesus that is also preserved in Luke 10:7.

It should be pointed out that, in the latter case, many skeptics will challenge Paul’s authorship of 1 Timothy, but the arguments that he had no hand in the letter are weak, and in any event 1 Corinthians is of undisputed Pauline authorship.

Then there are cases in which Paul does not directly quote Jesus but does directly allude to his thought.

One of these is in 1 Corinthians 7:

[10] To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband

[11] (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) — and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

This reflects Jesus’ teaching on divorce and remarriage as found, e.g., in Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18.

Note that Paul elsewhere acknowledges when he isn’t able to document something from Jesus’ teachings. Later in the same chapter, he writes:

[25] Now concerning the unmarried, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.

And there are places where he alludes to Jesus’ teaching without making the allusion explicit (he’s trusting the reader already to know the source). An example is found in 1 Corinthians 13, where he says:

[2] And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

The concept of faith moving mountains is an apparent reference to a teaching of Jesus that is preserved in the Gospels (Matt. 17:20, Mark 11:23).

One could go on, but what we’ve already seen is enough to reveal how flawed are the claims that Paul never quoted or was unfamiliar with the teachings of the historical Jesus.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; saints
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To: Mad Dawg
Augustine thought that people who read without at least whispering what they read are too jealous of their time. If they read aloud, he figured, people around them would start asking questions.

Many ill things started with Augustine's inability to leave good things alone. Reading as if one is talking,-- for of course a reading man is talking -- was one of these things.

St. Ambrose read without moving his lips!

61 posted on 06/08/2014 2:07:48 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: imardmd1

“That’s an interesting opinion, but you might want to read your Bible....”

Hmmmm, let me understand this. You say that because Paul had “visions” of Jesus that means that He actually met Jesus in the flesh?

I guess I’ve met him too.

I don’t Jesus ever met Paul. They certainly knew of each other, same as Wellington probably never met Napoleon.


62 posted on 06/09/2014 3:59:11 AM PDT by nikos1121
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To: nikos1121; imardmd1
This is what St. Paul writes, it seems, about himself, or perhaps someone else with "visions and revelations":
[1] If I must glory (it is not expedient indeed), but I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. [2] I know a man in Christ above fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up to the third heaven. [3] And I know such a man (whether in the body, or out of the body, I know not: God knoweth), [4] That he was caught up into paradise, and heard secret words, which it is not granted to man to utter. [5] For such an one I will glory; but for myself I will glory nothing, but in my infirmities. [6] For though I should have a mind to glory, I shall not be foolish; for I will say the truth. But I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth in me, or any thing he heareth from me. [7] And lest the greatness of the revelations should exalt me, there was given me a sting of my flesh (2 Cor. 12)

While Paul is self-effacing in this passage, one thing is clear: whether the meeting took place "in the body, or out of the body" did not matter to him, nor should it matter to us. What does matter is

be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:11, 4:16, cf John 20:21).
The reality is the fact that the Holy Apostles and the prelates of the Church today are sent by the Holy Spirit as Christ to us.
63 posted on 06/09/2014 5:34:09 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Mad Dawg
I don't know if Episcopalians fall into the category of "serious people", but this was a VERY common argument in favor of "Bishop Vicki" before we shook the dust of that denomination from our sandals.

And just last week I ran into a very silly Piskie woman, liberal and feminist, who tried this one on me after I responded to her announcement that she had left the Catholic church because of "the way they treat women" with the announcement that I had headed in exactly the opposite direction for the same reason.

64 posted on 06/09/2014 6:39:23 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ecce Crucem Domini, fugite partes adversae. Vicit Leo de Tribu Iuda, Radix David, Alleluia!)
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To: Mad Dawg
And "Funeral Sentences" - which gave rise to some of the most beautiful music ever composed, Purcell's music for the funeral of Queen Mary.

Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary

65 posted on 06/09/2014 6:46:36 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ecce Crucem Domini, fugite partes adversae. Vicit Leo de Tribu Iuda, Radix David, Alleluia!)
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To: annalex

I think the simple question was, did Paul ever actually meet Jesus? There is nothing in the bible that says that he did. No one doubts the spiritual conversion, the revelation, the committment that became for Paul. He was no doubt with people who personally knew Jesus, but he never met him. Had he met Jesus, he probably would have had him killed.


66 posted on 06/09/2014 9:04:31 AM PDT by nikos1121
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To: AnAmericanMother

It occurred to me the other day to try to find a forum where I could ask what the difference is between the Episcopal Church and the UU church — other than haberdashery.

I can’t think of TEC as theologically serious any more. There are still good individuals, but as a corporate entity, pft.


67 posted on 06/09/2014 10:34:05 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

YES.

I will NEVER forget my first funeral — when I was crucifer. WHen Fr Warren cranked up with “I am the Resurrection ...” I just about jumped out of my skin.


68 posted on 06/09/2014 10:35:03 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: nikos1121

He met resurrected Jesus. He could not tell if, and in what sense He was “in the body”, but we meet persons, not bodies. He met the Person.


69 posted on 06/09/2014 6:05:53 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: nikos1121
The reality is the fact that the Holy Apostles and the prelates of the Church today are sent by the Holy Spirit as Christ to us.

No, not in that distant sense. Jesus spoke directly to Paul, as He met with and spoke to Moses in the same way. As I commented before, Paul learned his doctrine from the risen Jesus, not from the Eleven, nor even from Peter alone (Galatians 1).

70 posted on 06/10/2014 10:54:20 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: imardmd1

I appreciate your thoughts, I really do, but this discussion is getting a bit off the initial tract. Jesus and Paul never met. There is no proof that they did meet. We can say all we want about them meeting spiritually, and Paul being directed as born again believer etc. I don’t doubt that, but thankfully, they didn’t meet before Christ’s death. Because Paul in his non Christian period of life hunted down Christians and prosecuted them.


71 posted on 06/10/2014 11:42:43 AM PDT by nikos1121
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To: annalex
The reality is the fact that the Holy Apostles and the prelates of the Church today are sent by the Holy Spirit as Christ to us.

I do not believe an episcopacy is to be construed from the passages cited.

72 posted on 06/10/2014 2:44:12 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: imardmd1

I have little interest in an individual’s belief.


73 posted on 06/10/2014 6:25:37 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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