Posted on 06/24/2014 2:13:28 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
>> “More things xians will not hear on Sunday morning.” <<
Oh, they’ll hear them, but the nicolaitan churchians claim that somehow they’ll escape in a secret rapture.
Its so secret that Yehova doesn’t even know about it.
.
I suggest anyone that spreads this vile nonsense called sola scriptura to get right with the Lord for the sake of their eternal soul. The teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ were around hundreds of years before ONE WORD was written down. The average person couldn’t read even if they had words to read. They were still taught Christianity. How? From others talking to them! It’s called TRADITION! Passing down from generation to the others what was passed down to them! I don’t know why some on here act like they just fell off the turnip truck.
That’s beautiful. Gotta love the argument that man’s interpretation of Scripture is all that’s required for The Payoff, but yeah, we can’t even agree on what two words mean. They are amusing, if nothing else.
Truly. It is also a sad commentary on a broken educational system, but I digress.
Digression or no; most certainly true
“Since Christ suffered for the Church and since the Church is the body of Christ, without doubt the person who divides the Church is convicted of lacerating the body of Christ.” – Council of Florence, Session 9 (23 March 1440)
Well, that's lovely, I'm delighted that you have grasped the truth about the grace of God, but, I hope you can appreciate the disconnect being made right here. We have Editor-surveyor and Verga, along with af_vet-1981 all contending for a salvation that IS based on our merits. They give lip service to the gospel of grace and the place of faith, but then turn around and qualify it, adding all the works/things one MUST do in order to some day have eternal life in heaven. Faith PLUS our works in order to be made righteous by grace is NOT the true gospel.
That sola ecclesia isn't working any better than how some here have falsely concluded sola Scriptura does. ALL truths of the Christian faith have their source in the Bible - it is God's specially revealed and preserved love letter to the body of Christ - which is what makes IT the authority over any humanly devised doctrines.
No one is denying that God has created us for good works and that the Holy Spirit within us leads us to desire to please God out of gratitude for His love and grace. Nobody is contending for a free-for-all, sin all you want Christian life because we have been saved by grace apart from our works. We readily acknowledge that there are consequences for disobedience and that God WILL deal with us as His children, disciplining us and conforming us into the image of Christ. But, all these things point out is that we are STILL saved by grace through faith and not by works - lest ANYONE should boast.
Paul said that ANY other gospel than the one he preached is an accursed gospel. It is solely by grace THROUGH faith that we are saved and grace PLUS something we add to it nullifies grace. It is NOT by our works of righteousness that we are saved but by the grace and mercy of Almighty God. THAT is the true gospel and is proved by God's sacred word over and over again.
So trusting in the Divinely-revealed Scripture is now "vile nonsense"??? Seriously? The teachings of Jesus Christ were being written down within the first ten or fifteen years after His ascension and the last book that was written was Revelation in 95 A.D.! Who is feeding you this garbage about "hundreds of years" going by before "ONE WORD" was written down? Why would they have even done THAT if, as you say, nobody could read? Is that what Roman Catholicism teaches these days?
All you are doing is disparaging and disrespecting the holy word of God and you will bring judgment on yourself for doing so. Everything the Apostles taught in that first century that is essential for salvation and Godliness was written down, copied, dispersed and preserved and those who refused to follow the written word were corrected. God did this for thousands of years BEFORE Christ came, why would He have stopped doing it after?
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope. (Romans 15:4)
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)
bingo
Not true. The Ryland fragment of John is believed to date to about 125 AD. This is within 35 years of the traditional date for the writing of the book by John himself, which is about 90 AD. There are also fragments of Matthew 26, more controversial, because while many Scholars assign it to a date of about 200AD, there is a minority report suggesting a possible date as early as 60AD, which would make it virtually contemporaneous with the Apostolic era.
The point is, if you think the absence of any written Scripture for hundreds of years is a good way to attack Sola Scriptura, then have at it. Just be aware that the archeologists are not helping you out much.
You should also be aware that your position is a great way to make friends with liberal secular scholars, who apparently preach exactly the same thing as you with respect to the unavailability of manuscripts. Odd coincidence that. Whereas it's the Sola Scriptura conservatives who are arguing that John actually wrote John and Matthew actually wrote Matthew. Everybody else seems to they were written by latecomers who had no direct knowledge of the events of Christ's life. Liberals like that because they can argue the whole thing was made up, with no record from real eye witnesses. But John's Gospel was written by one who claims to be an eye witness:
Joh 21:20-24 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? (21) Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? (22) Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. (23) Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? (24) This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
So, is "John" lying? Or is he telling the truth about being both the "disciple whom Jesus loved" and the writer of the Gospel named after him?
Because if your theory is true, the writer is a liar. If the writer is telling the truth, your theory is necessarily wrong, and we do have direct eye witness testimony of the words and deeds of Jesus, and a physical fragment no more than 35 years older than the first copy issued by Apostle John himself. Which is it? You tell me.
The life and teachings of Christ were taught before ONE WORD was written down. A mind is a terrible thing to waste, too bad some many on FR seem to waste their’s with idle nonsense about that CATHOLIC DOCUMENT called the Bible.
“liberal secular scholars, who apparently preach exactly the same thing as you with respect to the unavailability of manuscripts”
CATHOLIC theologians are NOT LIBERAL SECULAR SCHOLARS. Try again partner.
The Catholic Church is the only reason you have a Bible to read. The only reason you are even aware of the teachings of Jesus Christ is because OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
Let JAMES the JUST, blood brother of Jesus and leader of the followers after the Crucifixion - for about 30 years - killed in 62AD - explain it to YOU - :
KJV James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
That's NOT the argument, though. Instead, it is another example of misunderstanding what sola Scriptura even means. Nobody is advocating that anyone can believe whatever they want and it doesn't matter. If you look at your owner's manual for your car or washing machine, for example, it tells you what you need to know to get the best use of the product. If, instead, you decide to use vodka rather than gas in the car tank or wash your pots and pans in the clothes washer, you will NOT like what results. If the people who built the products take care to communicate to their customers how best to enjoy the use of their products, why wouldn't the God of all the world do that much and more to communicate to His creation how best to relate to Him and enjoy the existence He created?
The Bible is God's instruction manual, love letter and guide to humanity so that we could know Him, love and serve Him and spend eternity with Him. Everything we need to know is found in His word. As St. Peter said in his second epistle, chapter 1:
His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.
We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
There is NOTHING fractally wrong about that!
And well enough He didn't say it that way. It would be passing strange to explicitly label an obvious metaphor so awkwardly and academically, and quite alien to Jesus' style of communication. Jesus didn't say "A door is a figure of me." Would have been totally weird, wouldn't it? Nobody talks that way. You just use the verb of being, "All the world's a stage," and presto, you have a direct metaphor. Google it. I'm not the one to blame for the existence of direct metaphors.
Hmmm...is this your way of admitting you misspoke earlier when you claimed "not ONE WORD was written for hundreds of years"? Nobody denies the books of the New Testament were written between 45 A.D. and 90 A.D. and the teaching of Jesus were spread orally prior to that AND after.
If, as you say, the mind is a terrible thing to waste on "idle nonsense" about the Bible, then why are YOU here at all??? I don't happen to think it's nonsense because, as is evident here, many people still don't get why we have the Bible and the benefits it provides to all those who would live Godly lives in Christ Jesus. I think it's a GOOD thing to help in that regard.
LOL! Cat got your tongue? No response on whether John was telling the truth about being an eye witness? Hmmm...
But the response you did offer is also off point. I didn’t say you were befriending Catholic scholars with your rejection of evidence for early NT manuscripts. I said you were befriending liberal secular scholars by your position, and you are. It is merely icing on the cake that you of your own accord extend that to Catholic scholarship.
As for whether we have the Bible thanks to the modern Roman church, poppycock. The modern Roman church didn’t exist when the Apostles wrote. By definition. Furthermore, if God wanted to raise Bibles “out of these rocks,” to paraphrase the Baptist, He would have no trouble doing so. You better go back and check your pedigree one more time. I don’t think it’s doing for you what you think it is.
And just as a gentle reminder, I am still waiting to hear whether you think “John” lied about being both the “disciple whom Jesus loved” and the writer of the Gospel. Was that writer lying? Or telling the truth?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.