Posted on 06/24/2014 2:13:28 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
It shows the ex-prot in me is showing through, but if someone with an IQ more than double digits looked at them in context they would notice a pattern.
It shows the ex-prot in me is showing through, but if someone with an IQ more than double digits looked at them in context they would notice a pattern.
Although there are many, it will suffice to provide just one of the many scriptures to show that you are ridiculously wrong...
1Co_5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
2Co 11:15 It is no great thing therefore if his ministers also fashion themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.
It doesn't fit because Paul is here talking about false apostles, ministers of Satan, and of course they have no redemption and are totally on their own in terms of works justification. Not a good place to be, and certainly not reflective of the Christian's position of being in a state of pardon thanks to the death and resurrection of Jesus.
As for the Revelation 20 passages, those being judged all missed the first resurrection, so they are all without Christ. What else can they be judged on but their works?
The other passages are indicative of what we already know and agree upon, that righteousness matters in the life of a believer, and there is an accounting for how we live our lives after we receive our legal justification via the death of Christ:
1Co 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Now this is common knowledge amongst conservative Baptists and many other Bible-based groups. These will almost uniformly hold to one form or another of "perseverance of the saints," the idea that all true believers are changed persons, who will be inclined by their new nature to produce good works. So we have a legitimate expectation of salvation based on what Christ has done to expiate all our sins. But we also continue to be imperfect, and some will err more than others, and will lose reward for it. Yet they will be saved "as by fire," as Paul puts it.
So your "pattern" breaks down, which highlights the importance of context context context. Don't leave home without it. Or something like that. :)
Peace,
SR
KJV James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
How do you reconcile the scripture in Romans and Ephesians with the scripture you posted???
Are you advertising again???
Sometimes focus is a deliberate choice. Just sayin' ...
“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “
Okay, let's listen to King David, the "man after God's own heart", when he said, "There is no God.". It doesn't say that, you reply? If we look at the CONTEXT of what David said and read the words and verses around that snippet, we would see the Psalmist say, "A fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" (Psalm 53:1).
You bring up a single verse, divorced from it's context, ignoring all the OTHER verses that contradict what you claim this verse states and then what are we to do, toss out the doctrine of justification by faith APART from works that so many other verses say all because you find a sentence that says otherwise? Let me ask you this, would God contradict Himself? IF we really are "justified" by our faith AND our works, then what do we do with verses like:
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:16)
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:20)
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. (Romans 3:28)
Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses. (Acts 13:38,39)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5)
Finally, let me ask you this simple question, was the sacrifice of Christ on the cross sufficient to satisfy the debt of our sins? If you say, yes, then how can your works improve on that perfect sacrifice when God says only by the shedding of blood is there atonement for sins? If, no, then why wasn't Christ's blood enough, why did he suffer so much if we had to ADD our own righteousness to the mix in order to be justified before God?
People look at the outward appearance and they see we are believers by our actions - they cannot see our hearts. God, on the other hand, sees our hearts and knows if our faith is real, He isn't fooled by outwards acts of righteousness. We are justified BEFORE GOD by faith and not by our works, because by works will NO ONE be justified. It is ALL by His grace.
One could just as well ask: How do YOU reconcile the Romans and EPH:, written by Paul, who never met, face to face with Jesus, did not walk, eat, sleep, talk and be taught with Jesus, as James the Just had, for years (until murdered in 62AD)- with what James the Just wrote - James, who was the LEADER of the followers after the Crucifixion, who was taught, in person, for years, by Jesus Himself -
with what Paul writes?
James 2:14 “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”
James 2:17 “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”
James 2:18 “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
James 2:19 “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”
James 2:20 “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”
James 2:24 “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
The Didache, “Teachings of the Twelve Apostles” says the same as James.
All the scriptures you quote are by Paul. Many Christian Churches are based more on Paul’s teaching than Jesus’ - and are considered, by many, as “Paulinism”
And James was the leader until 62AD. What he wrote is also the same as in the Didache:
I see boatbums ignoring or misunderstanding the words of our LORD Jesus Christ and his Apostles to teach her own version of the gospel.
Grace is God’s gift to all. Grace is not based on works, lest any man should boast. God’s grace is effectual and sufficient unto salvation to all those who believe. Those who believe must be genuine and cooperate with God’s grace, else they are none of his.
Genuine faith produces love and good works. Faith without works is dead. Someone who loves God will keep his commandments because he is born of God, loves God, and does not frustrate the grace of God. Someone who does not keep his commandments is trapped in some sin. There are grave and severe warnings from the LORD for such a person which should not be ignored.
At some point protestants must realize that their main hymn should be Que sera sera. Female pastors, endorsing and performing same sex "marriages", not one of them has a written statement opposing abortion.
As I have said before; There is no such thing as a conservative protestant evangelical church. Individuals may be conservative, but not one of their churches is.
Having female clergy is a tell tale sign, one the Catholic and Orthodox churches will do well to avoid; Paul was very clear on this.
I suspect there is a conservative Protestant evangelical church out there somewhere. The Fundamentalist churches should fit that criteria. I did come across a story about Bob Jones University opting to shed the label "Fundamentalist" now though. I find that telling, a sign of the times. BJU leaders are also weighing alternatives to the "fundamentalist" label that has proudly defined the school (and a wide swath of the Bible Belt) since the 1920s. "Basically, we've decided that we can't use that term," said Carl Abrams, a BJU history professor and a longtime member of the faculty. "The term has been hijacked and it takes you 30 minutes to explain it. So you need something else."
The decentralized authority they love to tout means that every one of them can customize their own "doctrines and dogmatic" teaching.
If you disagree with what they are teaching either wait 15 minutes, or go to the church down the road with a similar name.
Interesting interpretation;
I have been around long enough to finally make a declaration on this kind of thing and be certain that I'm right:
Nobody knows what anyone else is talking about anymore.
We see it happen time and again, someone posts what they think is the masterstroke against the other side (like that sola scriptura thread) and everyone on the other side says "that's not at all what we believe". If Protestants are laughing as much at Catholic misunderstandings of Protestant beliefs as I am at what the Protestants think we believe, we've got the funniest thing going on since the Dead Parrot sketch.
Catholics don't believe we can earn heaven anymore than Protestants believe a single prayer uttered 30 years ago ensures their salvation.
I know half of us used to be on the other side of the fence from where we are today and think that makes us experts on what the others believe but it has become abundantly clear to me that this is not the case. We talk past each other and over each other so much that there's hardly anything worth commenting on anymore... other than the fact that we all need to be spending more time praying and less time yelling at each other.
To that end I strongly recommend that my fellow Catholics check out this link and load the app onto your iphone or ipad. Then USE it throughout the day, especially before you post. It will make a world of difference.
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