Posted on 07/03/2014 2:49:02 PM PDT by Faith Presses On
As has been mentioned a lot lately due to the Hobby Lobby decision, the Supreme Court is made up of six Roman Catholics and three Jews. I have been meaning to post about this for awhile and it seems like an appropriate time to.
For me, as an evangelical, I've found it increasingly troubling that all five conservative-voting justices are Roman Catholic. My belief on it is that the trend to select Roman Catholics as the "conservative" pick seems to come from the sense that they are, overall, less likely to strictly follow God's Word than would be an evangelical and to be more receptive to the opinions of man. The trend in politics in recent years is for evangelicals and more conservative Roman Catholics (and mainline Protestants and Jews) to band together, which is appropriate, but the trend seems to have gone too far in that evangelicals are being influenced to overlook and forget about the true and significant differences between evangelical belief and that of Roman Catholicism. Something has gone wrong when five Roman Catholics represent conservative Christians on the Supreme Court.
“Without breaking down the wall between evangelicals and Catholics in politics, so that evangelicals have unthinkingly accepted that conservative Catholics should be just as easily accepted as evangelicals, there would have been no Romney campaign.”
I did not even know that there was a “wall between Evangelicals and Catholics”. And of course, you think there is a good side and a bad side of this supposed “wall”.
And of course, you think Catholics are always on the bad side.
If you hate Catholics, just say so. I have been trying, politely and respectfully, to show you that Catholics have been the ones who stood up for principles. That doesn’t seem to matter to you.
And where do you get off blaming Catholics for Romney? Romney is a Mormon.
Okay, about that “old anti-Catholic slipper,” it’s not old. What I have been is appalled by the thought of how easily I might have been like everyone I knew around me when I lived the first 40+ years in my lfe in a nearly 80% Catholic Northeastern city, which is decidedly post-Christian. People eventually go to the Church for marriage and baptism, but there is no knowledge or love of God there. In people’s minds, as if they’re atheists or deists. And I grew up Lutheran, never hearing an anti-Catholic word, and in my twenties, accepted the Lord though I didn’t even understand it, because it was from reading the Gospels, and didn’t know where to go. And I tried the Catholic Church then (and also in my thirties, when I read the whole Bible).
And I truly shudder to think how things might have gone differently. I was Christian with confused beliefs, a university graduate in English, lived and identified as a lesbian, a Democrat, and around 2002 or so, even considered becoming Communist. (Cont’d)
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Then on a liberal site I went to, something like FR, someone mentioned having fun on Christianity.com forums, and there people quoted from the Bible things I nothing of, so I read the Bible. And even though I looked again at Catholicism, but decided that it believed things in opposition to the Bible, I’ve never closed the door on it, and wouldn’t, because I’m human after all, but leave it to the Lord, I’ve encountered more and more that turns me away from it. And while I have to stop here at this time, I will say that there is such opposition between the New Testament and the religion in Catholicism, such as that even which way the priest stands, and Communion in the mouth or hand, would seem to be of prime importance to our Heavely Father, that I see the burden of proof on Catholicism to prove it hasn’t turned aside from the Lord.
I do not think I said anything personal. I have been polite and respectful while this poster insults Catholics.
If I did say anything personal I apologize.
Some Johnny come-lately picks up the good book and all of sudden they're an authority and have deemed themselves worthy to toss 2,000 years of Christian tradition. I don't think so.
And so the relativism and cherry picking of protestantism continues. "Oh but I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit they say." Really? and the Holy Spirit has led millions of people to believe wholly different things about the Truths of the Faith? Is the third person of the Trinity a schizophrenic?
Division within the Body of Christ is not God-inspired. But man-made corruption seeking out its own preferences for their own sake. Tell me, what is the difference between a pro-choicer and a protestant? My body, my interpretation.
I love how people say they are indwelt or they leave it to the Lord. Totally absolves them of everything doesn't it? Or at the end of the day they say, "I got Jesus and that's all I need." This particular gem always shows up when confronted with the fact that they've substituted their own ideas for the truths of the Faith. Ultimately, deification resides with the individual and not God. I decide. My body, my interpretation.
No, the burden of proof is on the novelties of the Johnny come-lately's of protestantism who for secular reasons decided to abrogate the Faith. And they've been found wanting.
“even though found there were things that directly contradicted the Bible”
I’m sorry, but your “findings” were misunderstandings. Nothing in Catholicism contradicts the Bible in any way.
As Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen wrote, “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church—but there are millions who hate what they mistakenly think the Catholic Church teaches.”
And, “Evil is lonely when it’s left by itself. It has to have company. It’s got to form a city, a corporation, a group. Circe was the basis of all evil communications, whatever they be—press, radio, television, pornography, anything. That which is wicked and base wants to make everyone else base, otherwise it’s not content and happy. So you see, there’s nothing new. Despair is only happening to new people.”
While I’m at it, these two as well: “The judges in the middle ages, whenever they sentenced anyone to death, had to receive communion with that man the day of his death, to remind the condemned man that, after all, although I am executing justice, you belong to a greater realm of mercy and understanding and compassion.
and
“America, it is said, is suffering from intolerance. It is not. It is suffering from tolerance of right and wrong, truth and error, virtue and evil, Christ and chaos. Our country is not nearly so much overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded…In the face of this broadmindedness, what America needs is intolerance.”
The Bible says the Lord knows who are His, and those who are His are among those who profess to believe in Him. Now, I believe you mentioned the passage in which Jesus, speaking of the Church, sas the gates of Hell won’t prevail against it. But when people say or are identified as Christian, but aren’t, then Hell has prevailed over them. So it is not a church as an earthly institution that’s meant, for they include both wheat and tares, but those whom the Lord knows as His.
Gates are defenses. Gated communities, the gate that separates your front yard from the public sidewalk, the gate on the bank vault, etc.
I am not at all sure of the meaning of the passage but it may well refer to hell not being able to successfully the forces of God. Would this be a reference to Armageddon? I don't know. I am no expert on Scripture. However, I had always thought of those gates of hell as offensive weapons to be used ineffectively against Christians which simply goes to show my obtuseness regarding my errors as to at least some Scriptural meanings.
I do agree that all churches have wheat and tares but it is not the institution that goes to heaven or hell but the individual. There are some folks who claim to be Catholic and who believe somehow that only Catholics go to heaven at least ordinarily. They follow teachings of the early Church Father St. Cyprian of Carthage that "outside the Church there is no salvation." In later times. numerous popes and the Catechism of the Catholic Church have explained the actual complexity of this teaching as meaning that those who go to heaven get there in some way via the Catholic Church.
When Jesus Christ was being crucified, there were two others being crucified: the good thief and the one who was not so good. The good thief is traditionally known as Dismas. When the not so good thief challenged Jesus to the effect that if Jesus was really Messiah, he should save the three of them from crucifixion. Dismas rebuked the not so good thief by asking Do you have no respect for Him even at a time like this? Jesus, remember me when You come into your Kingdom. Jesus assured Dismas that Dismas would on this day join Jesus Christ in heaven Luke 23: 39-43.
There is also that part of the Creed which says that after His death, Jesus "descended into hell." Traditionally this is believed to mean that he went to the place of the souls of the dead, all the dead, and opened heaven to those who had lived righteous lives. They could not enter heaven before His actions had saved them.
Now, as I have said, I am no expert on religion, mine or anyone else's. Take the foregoing as you will as all of us search for the Truth.
May God bless you and yours.
I also come from the Northeast and in what was then the very Catholic State of Connecticut and City of New Haven. I am probably somewhat older than you are and that may give me some additional perspective on the pre-Vatican II Church and particularly during the time of Pope Pius XII who died a year before I graduated grammar school. In those days, Rhode Island was quite Catholic as was Massachusetts and southern New Hampshire, and much of Maine and Vermont. New York, New Jersey and Eastern Pennsylvania were also rather Catholic. It was the Catholicism not only of Pope Pius XII but also Francis Cardinal Spellman and Richard Cardinal Cushing who were giants compared to many of their successors. Harder line than even they were was James Cardinal McIntyre of Los Angeles. It was also the time of Bishop Fulton Sheen whose Catholic religious lectures weekly in prime time on NBC were the most watched series on TV for all three years.
In those times, many of us confessed our sins weekly and attended Mass and received the Eucharist at least weekly. A lot of the fervor of 1950s Catholicism fell victim to the "spirit of" Second Vatican Council, an eruption of subterranean Church radicalism that had been suppressed for about five decades. The radicals waited for Pius XII to die (1958), elected the aged Angelo Cardinal Roncalli as Pope John XXIII, brought about that council and confused the Faithful beyond imagination. When, as expected, Pope John XXIII died after a short reign (1963), Giovanni Cardinal Montini was elected as Paul VI and was a singularly ineffective pope in many ways during his fifteen year term. He did come down hard against artificial birth control in Humanae Vitae but was unable to cause compliance among the Faithful. Those two popes and twenty years nearly drove me from the Church to Russian Orthodoxy. At the end of year twenty, John Paul I and then John Paul II were elected.
Your experiences and mine differ greatly and I could really only attempt to "sell" you on my Church and Catholicism face to face which is not likely to happen given my age and health. I note the message of your last paragraph in the post to which I am responding. I grieve for at least some of what you have experienced and I pray that those experiences will, by whatever route, lead you to heaven and to the eternal embrace of our Heavenly Father.
God bless you and yours!
Our Mass is the Tridentine (or old Latin) Mass. The priest says Mass with his face toward the tabernacle and his back to the congregation that he is leading in worship. His preaching is thoroughly orthodox according to the doctrines of the Faith and he has keen insights on Scripture which he preaches at each Mass. The Holy Eucharist is received only while kneeling (assuming no physical disability prevents kneeling) at the altar rail and only on the tongue and never in the hand. We have a wonderful and quite knowledgeable and talented music director and a dedicated choir. There are only altar boys serving Mass and never altar girls. As my wife likes to say with a smile, at least there is one day a week when the men must serve the women.
Yes, I’m younger, in my 40’s, but whether the Catholic Church is traditional or Vatican II doesn’t make a significant difference to me. As someone born in 1970, I came to a knowledge of Jesus Christ over time through hearing about Him here and there and from God’s Word. And all the worldly grandeur, ritualism and ceremony of the CC contradicts the portraits of Jesus and the Church in the Gospels and the New Testament. I had a simple but strong belief in Jesus as a young girl with my family here and there going to a Lutheran Church, where we learned little but the Golden rule, and about forgiveness, and about Jesus’ time on earth, and even though I never heard negatives about the CC, just what I saw of the Pope on TV struck me as all wrong, although I’ve only realized that and thought of it recently. Passover was also an intimate family meal, and Jesus had it with His new family, and again, the thought that all sorts of rules on it, like having a cup in a wrong place will displease Dad, is sorely (Cont’d)
mistaken. It’s religion once again, and if religion was what the Lord wanted, He couldn’t be surpassed with the religion of Israel. A New Year, followed by a day of Atonement, a living in booths to show their life here was temporary and dependent on the Lord, etc., and then a temple with an outer court, and then inside the temple a holy place, and then a curtain further separating the Holy of Holies, where only the High Priest could go once a year, in a heavily dictated fashion, to offer atonement for the peoples’ sins. All of that and more was only a shadow and given by God to bring us to Christ. What the Lord is interested in before all else is hearts, not outward actions. Before Him we are like hardened criminals who society rightly hopes to keep in prison, unless there is a conversion. If there is that conversion to God, through Jesus, then we are born again, and it is not actions separate from our hearts that the Lord looks at. Two people might tell a lie, but while the unbeliever might justify (Cont’d)
it, the Christian is deeply in pain over it. The unbeliever doesn’t care what God says or wants, what He loves and what He hates, but the Christian loves the Lord and His ways and does what he or she knows to do to keep away from sin, yet has now caved to pressure and told a lie. It’s similar to what Peter and the other apostles did when they abandoned Jesus and denied Him. But this is where being the Lord’s comes in. We can still have peace and joy amidst our frailty because we’re told to rejoice at all times and that what we’re going through is God’s will for us at the time. When our frailty is exposed, God is working to strengthen us, even though it will likely hurt for a time. That’s for those who are the Lord’s. But sometimes some people are in the church and see from their failures or from examining themselves that they’ve never surrendered themselves to Jesus Christ. So looking at ourselves can be another of God’s mercies. All in all, it’s the “sinner who repents” which causes celebration in (CONT’D)
Heaven, because a life changes and eternally passes from death to life, not rituals done that are proclaimed “holy.”
The most Christian person I have been privileged to know was my mother's best friend, an old school Methodist woman who died about 20 years ago at about 90 years of age. She suffered heartbreak in her family from children and grandchildren and from the long slow farewell of her sort of strict Methodism as it disappeared in the New Haven area. She was generous to a fault to all around her. Hers was a passionate Scripture based faith even when there was no acceptable Methodist Church for her to attend. She, according to her understanding of Scripture refrained from most bad habits like nicotine and caffeine and alcohol and even dancing and card-playing but would provide hospitality in her home with ashtrays, coffee, cola, and even an occasional can of beer for visitors. If I am fortunate enough to be admitted to heaven when my time comes, I would be amazed not to find her there. She and my mother agreed not to discuss religion or politics and thereby save their wonderful friendship.
While other Christians may disagree with Catholicism's understanding that the Roman Catholic Church was created by Jesus Christ in the Peter Passage of Matthew (16:18 et seq.) and continues to this day, we do so believe. I avoid religious arguments here because they are fruitless. I am not going to abandon the Roman Catholic Church, the Mass, the sacraments and a two thousand year Tradition to become, what?, Something else? My own theologian? To choose one of thousands of sects of other Christians, each arguing for some Scriptural insight held more strongly by its own free agent leaders, dead or alive? To become a Christian free agent responsible for personally interpreting all of Scripture? I don't think so. That may somehow work for some people but not for me. At least for me, these seem to be paths to anarchy. But, it certainly seemed to work for my mother's best friend. I am not infallible. I just know me.
In this matter of rituals, I was responding to your suggestion as to the orientation of the priest (presumably at the more common Novus Ordo) Mass. As a Catholic of Traditional tastes, I prefer the Tridentine rite that I grew up serving, its solemnity, its music and the strict doctrine that seems to accompany it. The Novus Ordo is a somewhat low rent liturgy by comparison. Again, this is a matter of taste in liturgy. Then there is the role of sacraments as opportunities for grace. Necessarily another whole discussion.
May God bless you and yours!
“It’s no fluke what the Supreme Court make-up is.”
It’s those subversive Catholics again!
AMDG
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