Pope Francis selects Patti Smith to perform at the Vatican Christmas Concert

http://www.nme.com ^ | November 14, 2014 | Luke Morgan Britton

[af_vet_1981]

Maybe she's being catechized. Why would anyone resent that?

Such a good question

I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.

Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive. So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

[Mrs. Don-o]

WOW! Exactly.

[Mrs. Don-o]

She did "O Holy Night" at the Vatican Christmas concert last year. That's certainly a Christian song:

"Fall on your knees!"

It's on Youtube --

"O Holy Night" (LINK) And it's actually quite touching. It doesn't look like"The Vatican embraces atheistic punkdom": It looks like "Aging Queen of Punk Rock Embraces Christ."

[Mrs. Don-o]

Oddly, I wonder if you reformed brethren would have liked the Patti Smith from 40 years ago ("Rock N Roll Nigger") more than you like Patti Smith now ("O Holy Night" at the Vatican).

When she was a proto-punk, she began her first LP with the (some say "blasphemous") words, "Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." But that's good Calvinist theology, isn't it? Limited atonement?

I do not presume to understand Calvinism. I know my (vast) areas of ignorance. So a correction would be taken in good part.

[Gamecock]

Quite frankly I have no idea who she is. Perhaps I’m just too uncool.

Limited atonement? I think all churches have some such doctrine. Did Jesus really die for everyone (universalism) or those who are saved, whether though classical Augustinian thought or somewhere on an Arminian scale.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I am probably tripping up over the definitions of words here, which always puts productive conversation at hazard. Jesus died for everyone, but does not equal universalism as I understand it.

On the one hand, "God's grace has been revealed, and has made salvation possible for the whole human race. (Titus 2)"

and on the other hand,

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Matthew 24:13)

In other words, Christ truly is the Savior of Mankind, and died for the salvation of the World --- those are universally inclusive terms --- but we must enter and remain in a saving relationship with Him.

But I think no one can say ---as Patti Smith said 40 years ago, "Jesus died for someone's sins, but not mine." Perhaps she thinks she was predestined to be lost, which is (I think) a tenet of Calvinism, but in Catholicism would be called the sin of Despair.

But as I said before, I may be wrong about Calvinism. I refrain generally from commenting on Calvinst doctrine, since I don't know anything about it. really.

[Gamecock]

There certainly is tension between the two verses. But we do know that there are those who will not be saved, therefore He did not die for them. If he did die for them they would not be lost. Matters not if we are looking through a Calvinist/Augustinian lens or a more Arminian framework. (Saying the same thing as before, just rephrasing)

I’ll get back to you later when I get home and try to expand on that a bit.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"...there are those who will not be saved, therefore He did not die for them. If he did die for them they would not be lost."

This is not logically required or self-evidently true as far as I can see. It's like saying, "I certainly did send Christmas money to all four children. One of them threw away the card and envelope without opening them. Therefore I did not send him Christmas money."

[Gamecock]

But we also know that Jesus knows his sheep. The sheep know him. He is the good shepherd and died for them. Not for wolves.

[GeronL]

Why didn’t he invite Boy George while he was at it?

[Mrs. Don-o]

Yet "sheep" and "wolf" don't seem to be unchangeable statuses when applied to humans. The call to "repent" would be meaningless if one couldn't turn from sin and become a "sheep," The call to "persevere" would be meaningless if one couldn't turn from virtue and become a wolf.

Ezechiel makes that pretty plain.

Moreover, Jesus said that the healthy don't need a physician: the sick do. He didn't come for the righteous, but for sinners. He wants them in his flock. That implies they could turn and become sheep. This new heart - new identity - a new creature -theme is pretty big in Christianity. Or so I've hears.

[Gamecock]

***Yet “sheep” and “wolf” don’t seem to be unchangeable statuses when applied to humans. The call to “repent” would be meaningless if one couldn’t turn from sin and become a “sheep,” The call to “persevere” would be meaningless if one couldn’t turn from virtue and become a wolf.***

Actually, they are. In reality we are all dead and can only be rescused by God’s grace. Twice in Scripture God tells us that He will have mercy on who he will have mercy. What’s more he tells us he will have compassion who He will have compassion. We go on to read in Romans Chapter 9 that “It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.”

It’s not up to us. but Him.

[af_vet_1981]

***Yet “sheep” and “wolf” don’t seem to be unchangeable statuses when applied to humans. The call to “repent” would be meaningless if one couldn’t turn from sin and become a “sheep,” The call to “persevere” would be meaningless if one couldn’t turn from virtue and become a wolf.***

Actually, they are. In reality we are all dead and can only be rescused by God’s grace. Twice in Scripture God tells us that He will have mercy on who he will have mercy. What’s more he tells us he will have compassion who He will have compassion. We go on to read in Romans Chapter 9 that “It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.”

It’s not up to us. but Him.

More than twice, but not as perhaps you have seen it. Oh, where to start ? What do Moses and Saul/Paul have in common ?

And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

[ebb tide]

He didn't come for the righteous, but for sinners.

Is that so? I thought Jesus came for all men.

Did Moses and Abraham know that? Did they not need Jesus Christ?

[Mrs. Don-o]

If it were true, then every imperative verb from the mouth of God in the OT and the NT is meaningless -- farcical --- futile ---because it makes no difference if anyone chooses to ""Repent" or "Be converted" or "Persevere" or "Listen" or "Turn" or "Have faith" or "Obey" --- it would be followed by "Heh-heh, not really, it sure don't matter to Me."

Everyone would act as if either he were saved no matter what he did, or damned no matter what he did. And these are the sins of Presumption and Despair. They are brought on by disbelieving in God's Word--- and that includes His imperative verbs.

Go to any Bible site with a keyword function, and enter "Gain eternal life". Or, in other translations, "What must I do to be saved?"

[Mrs. Don-o]

FOr one thing, He said it:

Matthew 9:13
"But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Luke 5:31-32
And Jesus answered and said to them, "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

Everyone (excluding Jesus and His mother) is a sinner. And even Mary needed Jesus to save her: she calls Him "Savior." Of course Abraham and Moses needed Jesus Christ. Though they did not understand it all in their own time, yet they clung to that which they did not understand. At Mt. Tabor, remember, Jesus explained it to Moses.