Posted on 11/24/2014 1:07:14 PM PST by NYer
However a prophet proclaiming God’s Truth cannot be wrong. There are more verses in Scriptures on God’s burning anger towards false prophets who say they are proclaiming His Truth than one verse in Romans 11 which is clearly taken out of context.
Cults are like that. One offered Kool Aid. Another locked up children in rooms to be incinerated.
Good summary. Then again, people voted for Barry Obola.
Please posit here in this thread how 7000 elect in end times relates to Romans 11:4? By the clear context the subject is unbelieving Israel (literal physical people as Paul points out he is one). In order to 'claim' heritage in the supposed end times 7000 you would have to be a physical (not just spiritual) descendant of Israel. Please explain your specific linkage to your claim. Below is the passage in question:
Romans 11 King James Version (KJV)
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Paul was quoting IKings 19:10-18 Elijah, remember Elijah, that one in which John the Baptist came in the spirit of?
Paul said in ICorinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (flesh age) are come.
Christ repeatedly forewarned that all but the very elect would be deceived. Why? Well look what God told Gideon, Judges 7:2 And the LORD said unto Gideon, “The People that are with thee are too many for ME to give the Midianites into their hands, lest Israel vaunt themselves against ME, saying, ‘Mine own hand hath save me.’.
Oh, who was it that Christ warned would be leading this tribulation of deception? Why it was those coming in His name.
Not Martians. Kenites. Have you been following?:)
Well if it worked for Bubba and it works for Obola, why can't Shepherds Chapel do the same?
Murray passed away in February of this year. I am assuming they bumped up another to fill out the 7000. Can’t just have 6,999 going into the end times can we?
Unless the 7000 are his followers and Murray is somehow above them in the office of prophet in the order of Elijah. Who knows they won’t tell.
Murray passed away in February of this year. I am assuming they bumped up another to fill out the 7000. Can’t just have 6,999 going into the end times can we?
Unless the 7000 are his followers and Murray is somehow above them in the office of prophet in the order of Elijah. Who knows they won’t tell.
But I will say, this is the 9th “we are the chosen few” cults I’ve encountered in forums.
I think maybe you spend more time reading fluff on the internet than what God said He was going to do.
Well this IS what the Bible says in Genesis 3. And specifically "apples" we not specified on the menu:
Genesis 3 King James Version (KJV)
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. 20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.(KJV) ******************
Show me Eve had sex with the serpent here. If eating is sex then oh boy three times a day is gluttonous! Or lust if we take your angle on the matter. If nakedness means sex then I'm not changing in the gym locker room anymore.
Please do tell us. Post the passages to show us "who" is.
Notice how Paul references the Garden Party.
IICorinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. (Spiritual versus physical)
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled (holy seduced) Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Now if they were serving a menu of apples, instead of playing around in a fig grove (parable of the fig tree, Jeremiah 24 as well) then Paul most certainly would not have compared and contrasted the state of the church in losing her spiritual virginity.
Telling little children the original sin was Eve sharing her apple with her new hubby is a flat out lie. And you want to toss stones of ridicule at what God had Moses write down? The deception is already wide and deep.
Well the "apple" appears not in the text so don't know why you keep bringing it up.
On 1 Corinthians 10 there is no reference to Eve and the serpent and "flesh age" appears nowhere in the text. Are you using a Shepherds Chapel bible?
Gideon? Is it now 300 elect in end times or 7000. Should we add all the numbers of remnants and elect? Is it now 144,000+7000+300?
The admission of not knowing reminds me of the parable of the rich man begging for relief. It would not matter if I quoted every scripture from Genesis to Revelation wherein the fake messiah is named.
Who attempted to tempt Christ first? And what exactly did he offer Christ? Christ gave us first hand account as to what to expect and from whom. Christ was not tempted even after fasting for 40 days. Well, that is IF we are still walking in a flesh body on God's green earth when the devil gets tossed out of heaven first, knowing that he hath but a short time to play Jesus. Strangely some use a rapture blanket so they won't face the want-a-be Jesus. The first tribulation. Interestingly God said to those that want to believe lies he would indeed send them strong delusion.
Imagine my surprise when I could not find any reference to an apple being shared. But that is sure what the majority of so called Christian churches teach children. And IF they are incapable of or think they are too good to teach word for word what God told Moses to pen, then they have no credibility with me. This is not a game to me and based upon the majority of comments made on this thread it is like reading a science fiction script. Sure is not based upon what God had His elected writers pen.
People who claim that all peoples walking this earth today came from Adam and Eve are biblically ignorant. DNA demonstrates that it is NOT possible, and God loves alllll His children, He says so. So that begs the question why are things in most of Christianity painted in complete opposition to what science demonstrates and what God said? Deception.
On 1 Corinthians 10 there is no reference to Eve and the serpent and "flesh age" appears nowhere in the text. Are you using a Shepherds Chapel bible?
I use the King James Bible. I am not aware of a Shepherd's Chapel Bible. Paul was warning us that what has happened was written down and would be happening again. He was not alone in writing down this admonition, Solomon also penned the same in Ecclesiastes 1:9-11. Seems if we are given the script as to how things are going to unfold, common sense says to at least familiarize oneself with the script.
Gideon? Is it now 300 elect in end times or 7000. Should we add all the numbers of remnants and elect? Is it now 144,000+7000+300?
Now did I quote anything about a number from Judges? I do not have a tally, only God knows the minds of his children and who has overcome. My take is that when the time comes for the show trials to take place, God will have who He wants when He wants and where He wants answering the 'are you saved' and 'why don't you love Jesus' questions. There is a reason why Paul was directed to quote IKings right there in the New Testament. My take is that God is in charge and He does the 'electing'.
Ok, please show me where in OT or NT there is taught specifically only 7000 will not be deceived by antichrist?
Here are facts we do know was revealed:
- 144,000 will be sealed and they will come from the tribes of Israel (for some reason the JWs think they have a lock on this figure, so do the Mormons, and to some degree Armstrongite off shoots)
- We also see multitudes in heaven no man can’t count coming from the tribulation (last I checked my 10 yr old can count to and beyond 7000 if properly motivated)
No 7000 mentioned. Don’t you think such a central teaching of 7000 would be mentioned in the premiere end times book (Revelation)? Would you also not want other Scriptural evidence to support this one verse? Bad theology is built on a few verses of scripture. Go to an RC caucus thread for examples. For a CLEAR example of solid doctrine which withstands all scriptures see 1 Corinthians 15. THAT will with stand the whiles of the devil and antichrist.
What do we have from Sheperds Chapel and Murray’s teaching? One verse (Romans 11;4) clearly out of context for not only the chapter but chapters (Romams 9-11) And an entire book (Romans)!
This is akin to Rome wresting verses and metaphors to promote transubstantiation. At least they have a metaphor. Murrayites have nothing close.
Finally is it “fluff” to point out Murray is not clear on the Nature of Jesus Christ? He never answered the Trinity question. He did give an answer but his answer is similar to Modalism where God has three offices but that not all are eternal nor simultaneous.
The correct quote is "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.." Paul is quoting IKings 19:10-18. God Himself has reserved to Himself 'seven thousand men'.
Then Paul goes on to quote Isaiah 29:10 "God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear:;) unto this day......
Reason: Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Now Paul declared in Ephesians 1:4 that the 'elect'.... According as He hath chosen us (election) in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
This before the foundation of the world is when Satan rebelled and some stood against Satan. They are the 'elect'. They have already been chosen because of the stand they took when Satan decided he was going to replace God. (Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 describes his rebellion and first deception)
God is just and He elected already proved servants that will in this flesh age serve Him. Paul is to me the most prominent of any to represent those of the 'elect'. Because up until Paul had his awakening on the road to Damascus, Paul was doing with zeal what he believed was right.
Here are facts we do know was revealed: - 144,000 will be sealed and they will come from the tribes of Israel (for some reason the JWs think they have a lock on this figure, so do the Mormons, and to some degree Armstrongite off shoots) - We also see multitudes in heaven no man can’t count coming from the tribulation (last I checked my 10 yr old can count to and beyond 7000 if properly motivated)
Why do you care what others claim? What did God have John write down? Revelation 7:3 Saying, "hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."
I read it as TIME specific as those of the election need be sealed before the false messiah gets tossed out of heaven. This is God's doing not mans. And it applies to those of the election still walking around here in flesh bodies. As noted by you and your 10 year old there is already in heaven a multitude which no man can number of ALL nations that have over come. I do not get the problem you have with what God had John write down. It is what it is. I sure could not tell you who is of the tribe of Reuben or any of the tribes noted. And I do not know any flesh being walking the earth today that can either.
No 7000 mentioned. Don’t you think such a central teaching of 7000 would be mentioned in the premiere end times book (Revelation)? Would you also not want other Scriptural evidence to support this one verse? Bad theology is built on a few verses of scripture. Go to an RC caucus thread for examples. For a CLEAR example of solid doctrine which withstands all scriptures see 1 Corinthians 15. THAT will with stand the whiles of the devil and antichrist.
You need to ask God why He had Paul quote Him from back in IKings. He obviously had it put there for cause. Some do have free will to pick and choose what scriptures they deem more important than the rest. Given the prominence of Elijah and John the Baptist in serving the Lord, I take it as a sign of what the times will be like, the majority of the inhabitants on this earth will be deceived. The issue to me is to learn what the deception is. And IF I am still here when the revival of the fake messiah takes place at least I will know the majority is wrong. After all Paul did write the majority of the new testament.
What do we have from Sheperds Chapel and Murray’s teaching? One verse (Romans 11;4) clearly out of context for not only the chapter but chapters (Romams 9-11) And an entire book (Romans)! This is akin to Rome wresting verses and metaphors to promote transubstantiation. At least they have a metaphor. Murrayites have nothing close. Finally is it “fluff” to point out Murray is not clear on the Nature of Jesus Christ? He never answered the Trinity question. He did give an answer but his answer is similar to Modalism where God has three offices but that not all are eternal nor simultaneous.
Actually I do not know what you have from Shepherd's Chapel. You are free to make whatever context you decided over Romans 11:4, God will be the judge NOT you!!!
Yup; that's why I POSTED it.
NOW we are getting somewhere!
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