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Did Adam and Eve Really Exist?
Crisis Magazine ^ | November 24, 2014 | DENNIS BONNETTE

Posted on 11/24/2014 1:07:14 PM PST by NYer

the-fall-of-man-hendrick-goltzius

Pure myth! That is today’s typical view of a literal Adam and Eve. Yet, contrary to current skepticism, a real Adam and Eve remain credible—both in terms of Catholic doctrine and sound natural science.

By calling the Genesis story a “myth,” people avoid saying it is mere “fantasy,” that is, with no foundation in reality at all. While rejecting a literal first pair of human parents for all mankind, they hope to retain some “deeper” truth about an original “sinful human condition,” a “mythic” meaning. They think that the latest findings in paleoanthropology and genetics render a literal pair of first true human parents to be “scientifically impossible.”

The prevailing assumption underlying media reports about human origins is that humanity evolved very gradually over vast periods of time as a population (a collection of interbreeding organisms), which itself originally evolved from a Homo/Pan (human/chimpanzee) common ancestor millions of years ago. Therefore, we are not seen as descendants of the biblical Adam and Eve.

This universal evolutionary perspective leads many Catholics and others to conclude that a literal Adam and Eve is “scientifically impossible” for two reasons: First, paleoanthropologists deny the sudden appearance of intelligent, self-reflective, fully-human primates, but rather view the emergence of consciousness and intelligence as taking place slowly and incrementally over long periods of time. Second, in light of recent findings in molecular biology, especially from studies based on genetic data gleaned from the Human Genome Project, it is claimed that the hominin population (the primate group from which modern man is said to have arisen) has never had a bottleneck (reduced population) of a single mating pair in the last seven or more million years: no literal Adam and Eve. Many succumb to the modernist tendency to “adjust” Church teaching to fit the latest scientific claims—thus intimidating Catholics into thinking that divinely revealed truths can be abandoned—“if need be.”

This skepticism of a literal Adam and Eve begs for four much needed corrections.

First, Church teaching about Adam and Eve has not, and cannot, change. The fact remains that a literal Adam and Eve are unchanging Catholic doctrine. Central to St. Paul’s teaching is the fact that one man, Adam, committed original sin and that through the God-man, Jesus Christ, redemption was accomplished (Romans 5:12-21; 1 Cor. 15: 21-22). In paragraphs 396-406, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, speaks of Adam and Eve as a single mating pair who “committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state” (CCC, 404). “Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back toward God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle” (CCC, 405). The doctrines surrounding original sin cannot be altered “without undermining the mystery of Christ” (CCC, 389).

Today, many think that Pope Pius XII’s encyclical Humani generis did not definitively exclude theological polygenism. What they fail to notice, though, is that the Holy Father clearly insists that Scripture and the Magisterium affirm that original sin “proceeds from a sin truly committed by one Adam [ab uno Adamo]” and that this sin is transmitted to all true human beings through generation (para. 37). This proves that denial of a literal Adam (and his spouse, Eve) as the sole first genuinely human parents of all true human beings is not theologically tenable.

Second, rational human nature itself requires that mankind made an instant appearance on planet Earth. Paleoanthropological claims of gradual appearance of specifically human traits fail to comport with a true philosophy of human nature. Reflecting classical Christian thought, St. Thomas Aquinas demonstrates that true man is distinguished essentially from lower animals by possession of an intellectual and immortal soul, which possesses spiritual powers of understanding, judgment, and reasoning (Summa theologiae I, 75). While these qualitatively superior abilities are manifested through special forms of tool making or culture or art, they need not always be evident in the paleontological record. Sometimes true men share mere animal survival behavior and sometimes truly human behavior is lost to modern sight due to the ravages of time. What matters is that genuinely spiritual powers are either present or not, and that these alone bespeak the presence of true man. Irrational animals, including subhuman primates, are capable of complex sentient behaviors often approaching or imitating the rational activities of true man. But an animal either possesses a spiritual, intellectual soul or not. Thus at some point in time, true man suddenly appears—whether visible to modern science or not. Before that time, all subhuman behavior manifests merely material sensory abilities. The fact that positivistic scientists cannot discern the first presence of true man is hardly remarkable.

Third, a correct understanding of the scientific (inductive) method reveals that it cannot ever logically exclude the possibility of two sole founders of humanity. Natural scientific studies employ the inductive method of reasoning. Empirically observed data is employed to form testable hypotheses. Molecular biologists use computer models in an attempt to validate such hypotheses and reach conclusions about genetic conditions in early primate populations. In this process, some researchers have committed the logically invalid move of inferring from particular data to the universally negative claim that a literal Adam and Eve is impossible. Such methodology produces, at best, solely probable conclusions, based on available evidence and the assumptions used to evaluate the data. There is the inherent possibility that an unknown factor will alter the conclusion, similarly as was the unexpected discovery of black swans in Australia, when the whole world “knew” all swans were white.

Fourth, specific scientific arguments against Adam and Eve have proven not as forceful as many presently believe (Gauger 2012). For example, some have claimed that effective population size estimates for the last several million years would not permit just two true humans to have lived during that time. Still, the technical concept of average effective population size estimates should not be confused with an actual “bottleneck” (a temporarily reduced population) which may be much smaller. Effective population size estimates can vary from as high as 14,000 (Blum 2011) to as low as 2,000 (Tenesa 2007), depending on the methods used.

Such calculations rely upon many assumptions about mutation rate, recombination rate, and other factors, that are known to vary widely. All of this entails retrospective calculations about events in the far distant past, for which we have no directly verifiable data. For such reasons, some experts have concluded that effective population size cannot be determined using DNA sequence differences alone (Sjödin 2005; Hawks 2008).

Indeed, the most famous genetic study proclaimed as a “scientific objection” to Adam and Eve turned out to be based on methodological errors. An article by geneticist Francisco J. Ayala appearing in the journal, Science (1995), led many to believe that a founding population of only two individuals was impossible. Ayala based his challenge to monogenism (two sole founders of humanity) on the large number of versions (alleles) of the particular gene HLA-DRB1, which are present in the current population. Accepting the common ancestor theory, he claimed that there were thirty-two ancient lineages of the HLA-DRB1 gene prior to the Homo/Pan split (approximately seven million years ago). Over time, these “pre-split” lineages, themselves, evolved into the new additional versions present today. Because each individual carries only two versions of a gene, a single founding pair could not have passed on the thirty-two versions that Ayala claimed existed some seven million years ago—either at that time or at any time since. A bottleneck of just two true humans, Adam and Eve, was “scientifically impossible.”

However, Ayala’s claim of thirty-two ancient HLA-DRB1 lineages (prior to the Homo/Pan split) was wrong because of methodological errors. The number of lineages was subsequently adjusted by Bergström (1998) to just seven at the time of the split, with most of the genetic diversity appearing in the last 250,000 years. A still later study coming out of Bergström’s group inferred that just four such lineages existed more than five million years ago, but that a few more appeared soon thereafter (von Salomé 2007). While two mating hominins can transmit four lineages, the few additional later ones still require explanation.

These genetic studies, based on many assumptions and use of computer models, do not tell us how the origin of the human race actually took place. But, they do show (1) that methodological limitations and radical contingency are inherent in such studies, which are employed to make retroactive judgments about deeply ancient populations that can never be subject to direct observation, and (2) that present scientific claims against the possibility of a literal Adam and Eve are not definitive (Gauger 2012, 105-122).

Philosopher Kenneth W. Kemp and others have suggested that interbreeding between true humans and subhuman primates in the same biological population might account for presently observed genetic diversity (Kemp 2011). Such interbreeding is not to be confused with the marriages between true human siblings and cousins which would have occurred in the first generations following Adam and Eve, which unions were a necessary part of God’s plan for the initial propagation of mankind (Gen. 1:28).

The difficulty with any interbreeding solution (save, perhaps, in rare instances) is that it would place at the human race’s very beginning a severe impediment to its healthy growth and development. Natural law requires that marriage and procreation take place solely between a man and a woman, so that children are given proper role models for adult life. So too, even if the union between a true human and a subhuman primate were not merely transitory, but lasting, the defective parenting and role model of a parent who is not a true human being would introduce serious disorder in the proper functioning of the family and education of children. Hence, widespread interbreeding is not an acceptable solution to the problem of genetic diversity.

Moreover, given the marked reduction in the number of ancient HLA-DRB1 alleles found by the later genetic studies of Bergström and von Salomé, it may turn out that no interbreeding is needed at all, or at most, that very rare instances of it may have occurred. Such rare events might not even entail the consent of true human beings, since they could result from an attack by a subhuman male upon a non-consenting human female.

A literal Adam and Eve remains rationally, scientifically credible.

Since the same God is author both of human reason and of authentic revelation, legitimate natural science, properly conducted, will never contradict Catholic doctrine, properly understood. Catholic doctrine still maintains that a literal Adam and Eve must have existed, a primal couple who committed that personal original sin, which occasioned the need for, and the divine promise of, the coming of the Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

Editor’s note: The image above is a detail from “The Fall of Man” painted by Hendrik Goltzius in 1616.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Religion & Science; Theology
KEYWORDS: adam; adamandeve; creation; crevo; crevolist; eve; evolution; fazalerana; gardenofeden; genesis; hughross; originalparents; origins
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To: Partisan Gunslinger
I can't find anything about this other than from false websites that also say...

How do you make the claim they are FALSE??


What objective source are you getting this from?

981 posted on 12/02/2014 12:11:48 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: editor-surveyor
I read what is there, the stuff that you are conditioned to fly over and ignore.

Oh; I ACCEPT it wholeheartedly; NOT ignore!

And I take it at face value, and do NOT redefine words to my liking...


 


'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,
' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'  


982 posted on 12/02/2014 12:13:56 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: editor-surveyor
Nobody is born again yet, but Yeshua.

1 John 1:26-29

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

983 posted on 12/02/2014 12:17:58 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
That's why he was saved, he was still perfect to bring along the messiah.

Sounds like 'sinless' Mary!

984 posted on 12/02/2014 12:19:05 PM PST by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums
Yeah, I know that, just like I know God's set apart remnant is not a mere 7000. So, it's literal when it says "7000" but not when it says "men"??? That's the point being made here in case you missed it.

Boy, when you find a stumblingblock, you make it as big as a railcar. lol

985 posted on 12/02/2014 12:36:51 PM PST by Partisan Gunslinger
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To: Elsie
How do you make the claim they are FALSE??

You make a habit out of quoting out of context.

986 posted on 12/02/2014 12:38:41 PM PST by Partisan Gunslinger
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To: Partisan Gunslinger; CatherineofAragon
Here is what Arnold Murray says about his "doctorate":

    Doctorate of Religious Education

    I have never claimed to have received a doctorate from Roy Gillaspie. I do not know where some of these "researchers" came up with this. Roy Gillaspie was simply a beloved teacher of God's Word and I have never said or implied any such thing. It is true that I have a policy of not publicly stating where I earned my doctorate because then "critics" cannot judge me by association. I have always publicly stated that my credentials are my ability to teach God's Word. To the extent that our Heavenly Father blesses me with the ability to clearly teach His Word then what higher ordination could there be? (http://www.shepherdschapel.com/answer-to-critics.htm)

Roy Gillaspie is:

    Dr. Roy E. Gillaspie, was a Christian Identity preacher from Bellflower, California who is noted as being one of three Christian Identity ministers who ordained Arnold Murray, pastor of the Shepherd's Chapel in Gravette, Arkansas. Roy Gillaspie was the pastor of the Church of Jesus Christ, a white supremacist church located in Bellflower, California under the umbrella of Soldiers of the Cross (see the discussion page on Soldiers of the Cross), which was founded by former Communist party member turned Christian, Oliver Kenneth Goff (see The Encyclopedia of White Power, pg. 120). The Church of Jesus Christ was a small group of Christian Identity congregations with locations in California and Arkansas. The Gravette, Arkansas branch was pastored by Arnold Murray and was the precursor to Shepherd's Chapel As noted in Murray's web page, Gillaspie is described as "a beloved teacher of God's Word". In the sixties, Gillaspie served as an adviser to the Christian Defense League which was founded by Wesley Swift , San Jacinto Captand Colonel William Potter Gale. Through this organization Gillaspie forged ties with other notable Christian Identity preachers such as Bertrand Comparet , Richard ( Wikipedia article ) http://www.whoislog.info/profile/roy-gillaspie.html

He also mentions the Trinity in this section on answering his critics, but doesn't clear much up in his "Statement of Faith" concerning his teaching on this either.

987 posted on 12/02/2014 1:52:21 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

Well that was a whole lot of nothing. Nothing about Biola in there, and not objective either.


988 posted on 12/02/2014 2:03:47 PM PST by Partisan Gunslinger
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To: boatbums

BTW, that’s the page Wikipedia deemed unsubstantiated and had it removed. That’s pretty bad when even liberal Wikipedia knows it’s BS. lol


989 posted on 12/02/2014 2:17:43 PM PST by Partisan Gunslinger
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To: Partisan Gunslinger
Boy, when you find a stumblingblock, you make it as big as a railcar. lol

How is it a stumbling block to me? The only one doing any "stumbling" here is, apparently, YOU. Reading through this thread someone would think you aren't sure about your claim WRT the 7000 elect your teacher Arnold Murray has you convinced you are a part of - though, because he has died, he no longer even is (ironic?). You have vacillated between "7000" being a literal number to it NOT being literal. All I'm trying to do is pin you down on what you REALLY believe - is there going to be ONLY 7000 that do not succumb to the lies of the antichrist or will it be many, many more of the remnant than 7000 - which IS what Scripture says. Can you finally come to a decision on this? That's all I have been seeking.

990 posted on 12/02/2014 2:18:33 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Just mythoughts; boatbums
Genesis 1:26 And God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let *them* (that would mean more than one) have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

Here's the expanded context which torpedoes your assertion "them" meant a whole bunch of people.

Genesis 1:

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

See bolded above. "Them" be Adam and Eve. Or are you implying Eve did not have dominion because she was a woman? Eve couldn't rope a steer?

991 posted on 12/02/2014 2:33:21 PM PST by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: Just mythoughts; boatbums; editor-surveyor
It is this ridiculous claim that all God's children came from just two people...

It is not ridiculous. That is exactly how God literally revealed creation and the propagation of humanity. It only becomes 'ridiculous' when folks have to add to what is revealed to make a man-made theology as in the "Kenites" fit the Word.

992 posted on 12/02/2014 2:38:10 PM PST by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: Just mythoughts; boatbums
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, (NOT a fly away doctrine) and by the word of their testimony; (reserved either figuratively or literally 7,000) and they loved not their lives unto their death.

I checked the KJV does not have your parenthetical information. Which is a clear demonstration, you have to add to Scriptures to make your theology of men fit.

993 posted on 12/02/2014 2:41:21 PM PST by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: Just mythoughts; boatbums

You did not address the issue at hand. Do you deny the church will be ‘caught up’ at some time in history or is that figurative for you?

1 Thessalonians 4:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.(KJV)

So Murray taught to toss these verses out of the 1 Thessalonians? Or are these verses for the 7000 only?


994 posted on 12/02/2014 2:45:43 PM PST by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: Partisan Gunslinger; CatherineofAragon
Well that was a whole lot of nothing. Nothing about Biola in there, and not objective either.

You're sure doing a lot of flailing for someone who claims to only listen to a teacher and disagree with him "10%" of the time. I'm not seeing much "objectivity" from you either! Here's some more:

    You ever wonder why Murray keeps his past such a secret? There is a reason. Jesus said: “there is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed.”

    To fully grasp the Shepherd’s Chapel delusion and how it took shape we must understand “Doctor” Arnold Murray’s connection to two white supremacist organizations called The Church of Jesus Christ and The Soldiers of the Cross and two prominent figures in the late 50’s: Roy Gillaspie and Kenneth Goff.

    Goff and Gillaspie were very instrumental in the formation of the Christian Identity Movement and their financial backing was huge – Murray was simply a vessel for this new age racist theology…

    Christian Identity is a bigoted theology espoused by many within the Aryan Nation, the KKK and every other type of white supremacist you can imagine. They believe that only the white people are the true Hebrews, God’s chosen… sound familiar?

    In fact, Murray isn’t a “Doctor” at all unless you want to consider him a doctor of white supremacist theology — his ministry license was signed by Roy Gillaspie and Kenneth Goff.

    Roy Gillaspie was the head pastor of the Church of Jesus Christ – a dyed in the wool Christian Identity organization. The church was located in California but there were several located around the U.S.

    One of the organizations was in Arkansas – and guess who was the head pastor of that location? You guessed it! “Doctor” Arnold Murray. Seems our supremacist friends ordained Murray and sent him to spread the good news of white power in Arkansas.

    In fact, Murray’s initial church, the satellite Church of Jesus Christ, eventually became THE SHEPHERD’S CHAPEL, and is in the same location as the original Christian Identity church un Gillaspie!

    Kenneth Goff founded the seminary Soldier’s of the Cross, a training institute for the Christian Identity movement. This is where Murray received his training, this is where his so called “doctorate” comes from… what a farce!

    He received it from a man (Goff) who described black civil rights protesters as: “seeking to submerge our culture and religious heritage under a flood of cannibalism, voodooism and beastly jungle sex orgies.”

    In fact to this day Arkansas records show that a corporation known as the “Soldiers of the Cross” is doing business under the name of “The Shepherd’s Chapel” with Murray listed as the corporation’s agent. The property on which Shepherd’s Chapel resides is listed as property of the Soldiers of the Cross corporation…

    What is going on here? Murray never told us about any of this, did he?

    Around the time of the early 80’s it was time to for Murray to go mainstream with his Christian Identity doctrine… the rough racist edges of his white supremacist doctrine had to be smoothed out.

    Have you ever wondered how Murray so early on could afford the satellite he commonly boasted about? I think now we can understand where the money came from to launch the Chapel into the limelight.

    Goff and Gillaspie borrowed heavily from bigoted Mormon theology – this might explain why the Chapel teaching so closely parallels key tenets within Mormonism. They were obsessed with freemasonry and Pyramidology…

    Murray has a book on his list to deal with Pyramidology. The book he offers is by E. Raymond Capt whose father was a high ranking clansman… birds of a feather flock together.

    This is from Arnold Murray, answering his critics:

    “I have never claimed to have received a doctorate from Roy Gillaspie. I do not know where some of these “researchers” came up with this. Roy Gillaspie was simply a beloved teacher of God’s Word and I have never said or implied any such thing. It is true that I have a policy of not publicly stating where I earned my doctorate because then “critics” cannot judge me by association (why would the do that? Oh, yeah, because of Goff). I have always publicly stated that my credentials are my ability to teach God’s Word. To the extent that our Heavenly Father blesses me with the ability to clearly teach His Word then what higher ordination could there be?” – Arnold Murray, answer to critics

    God didn’t ordain Murray to teach the garbage that he did… what a load of religious bat guano!

    Of course, Roy Gillaspie was the head pastor of the church you served under and you didn’t technically receive it from him but let me tell you what Murray doesn’t want to say: Kenneth Goff of the Soldiers of the Cross Training Institute issued the doctorate. Charlatans like to create the air of authority around themselves and ascribe titles to themselves like “Doctor”. Murray was a Doctor of lies, false religion and disinformation – he received his doctorate from hateful bigots who had no validity from the get go.

    I have much more to say about these matters and the Christian Identity Movement but let this information sink in if you’re a chapel follower! Murray’s Connection to White Supremacist’s Gillaspie & Goff


995 posted on 12/02/2014 2:47:29 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
How is it a stumbling block to me? The only one doing any "stumbling" here is, apparently, YOU. Reading through this thread someone would think you aren't sure about your claim WRT the 7000 elect your teacher Arnold Murray has you convinced you are a part of - though, because he has died, he no longer even is (ironic?). You have vacillated between "7000" being a literal number to it NOT being literal. All I'm trying to do is pin you down on what you REALLY believe - is there going to be ONLY 7000 that do not succumb to the lies of the antichrist or will it be many, many more of the remnant than 7000 - which IS what Scripture says. Can you finally come to a decision on this? That's all I have been seeking.

Wow, I do believe you could hang on this the rest of your life. lol I first mentioned that it could be relative to population about 250 posts ago. I guess you missed it.

996 posted on 12/02/2014 2:48:34 PM PST by Partisan Gunslinger
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To: BroJoeK

On the macro level I do as a fellow Christian. However as we peel the layers some friction will occur.

We would have to take every recorded miracle in the Scriptures (OT and NT) and examine them. Meaning by your statements, I could say (1) Oh yes see he believes exactly what is recorded in scriptures; yet I could also conclude from your comments (2) Oh, yes I see he leaves the option open to deny or confirm certain miracles.

Now to clarify even further...If you were a Thomist or Intelligent Design adherent, I would know with a good amount of confidence what you meant in your statements.

Also, if your clarification was thus: “some miracles God used the natural elements under His command to intervene and in others there is absolutely no natural explanation.”

Now IMO that would be Biblically observant as some people were healed with absolutely no natural explanation; yet some as in Hezekiah and Naaman were healed by God by a natural prescription.


997 posted on 12/02/2014 2:56:08 PM PST by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: Partisan Gunslinger
Where do you get the idea that the elect have to be Israelite? I have no doubt Baruch was of the elect, and he was a gentile. Regardless, since the crucifixion all that believe in Jesus are of Abraham.

This is getting quite bizarre. Romans 9-11 makes a clear distinction between spiritual and physical Israel and the Promises.

998 posted on 12/02/2014 2:59:35 PM PST by redleghunter (But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
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To: redleghunter
Holy cow, Paul wrote those verses to disprove the rapture doctrine! The dead rise first because they're already there. Why would Jesus take the dead first, then the living if we're all going at the same time? He did say in the twinkling of an eye, no first wave, second wave. No, the dead are already there, then we the living that remain will go at the seventh trump, after the tribulation of antiChrist so that the test results will be in, so to speak.

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

God saved most of the best souls and most of the worst souls for this generation to go through Satan's tribulation, the best to stand for God, the worst to seal their fate.

999 posted on 12/02/2014 3:02:12 PM PST by Partisan Gunslinger
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To: Partisan Gunslinger; redleghunter; CatherineofAragon
Wow, I do believe you could hang on this the rest of your life. lol I first mentioned that it could be relative to population about 250 posts ago. I guess you missed it.

LOL! Oh, honey, I have plenty of other things to occupy my time than your incoherent theology regarding the end-times remnant. You may have mentioned a "relative to population" rationalization earlier, but then you went right back to your assertion of ONLY 7000 and even expressed hope you would be among them! I could go back over this thread and quote the number of times you insisted a finite number of 7000 - even when others said it would be far MORE than that - then admitted it could be more only to go right back to stating it was 7000 again, but I DO have a life! I'm sure you'd like nothing more than for me to just drop it, but you shouldn't expect to state something and not have to defend yourself against a challenge. This IS the Religion Forum after all.

Here's a hint...if you misspeak, simply admit it. Don't double down. It only looks like desperation.

1,000 posted on 12/02/2014 3:02:35 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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