Posted on 12/14/2014 11:57:21 AM PST by ealgeone
The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.
so?
AMDG
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
He was saying that those who thought it was physical flesh and blood were thinking carnally and not spiritually.
Now, answer my question. Why do you assign to Jesus the sin of eating blood?
I’ve not seen any denial of prayer to Mary; I’ve seen denial (and maintain denial myself) that we worship Mary.
I need another drink.
53Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him
WE DO WHAT HE COMMANDS US TO DO!!! and YOU DO WHAT???
No one denies you have preaching/teaching. You are blessed if you have someone versed in the original languages to share those insights. Those don't add to the text, they clarify the text.
But no one, well, except catholics and other cults, are adding to the Bible or are developing new doctrines.
“I was surprised at how many things that Lutherans
You would be incorrect to generalize from this one experience. In more than 30 years, I’ve never had that experience.
“Point of Justim Martyr’s quote is that they were doing in 155AD exactly what we do today.”
I got your point. It has many assumptions implicit in that are unsupported. I find arguments without support (opinions) unconvincing.
best
No. He gave Mary, who needed salvation, the singular grace of being preserved from original sin. Why? So she would be a pure vessel for the pure God-made-Man.
Jesus, by virtue of His divine nature was sinless. He didn’t need Mary or her consent. However, God chose to have His only Son come into the world, as man, born of woman.
As we read about the Annunciation in Luke 1:26-38, we see from the beginning, this is an unusual birth. God is to become man, born of woman. She is a virgin. We are also reminded that nothing is impossible with God.
Not to me but then I'm not the one trying to take my eyes off of Christ and putting them on Mary. The lives of the apostles were tracked by religious and secular writers to their last days. Mary was completely ignored soon after Jesus ascended into heaven.
as a Catholic I have been interested in what goes on in a protestant service I have been to other Lutheran services same stuff different day so your protestations aside fellowship is for protestants cause they don’t have the real deal - our Catholic Mass.
just doing for 2000 years what He commanded us to do.
Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam
Ephesians 2: 19-21, though again, I disagree with your premise that everything must have an explicit chapter and verse.
Consider again all you and your congregation does in worship. Are the words, phrases, and actions found explicitly in the Bible? I doubt it.
Re-read the post, as well as Ephesians 2:19-21.
First this isn't addressing NYer's point directly. It's irrelevant that Peter and John's example shows in those instances worship of a created being is forbidden. It's irrelevant because in other passages in the OT, it is permitted. So based on this fact alone one must conclude it's ok so long as one is not worshiping the created as if it were the Creator. Which is the Catholic teaching (honor given to Mary and the Saints can not be the same given to God).
In other words we can't just throw out the OT if what's there contradicts what we believe to be true. The OT Scripture is just as valid as the New.
Even further however that NYer did not mention, that demonstrates this distinction in the NT as well, is the passage contained in Rev 3:9.
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
The word used for "worship" here is the same (proskynéō) that you cited in your examples with Peter and John.
So here we even see in the NT authorization (by Jesus himself) of "worship" of created beings.
The fact that the Bible "doesn't tell us anywhere" to "worship" (proskynéō) is irrelevant here because that is a larger issue revolving around the question of "sola scriptura". I have no intention of debating that (again).
Indeed I have no intention of debating this with you either. But it needed to be pointed out that your entire syllogism is faulty. There is evidence of created beings being "worshipped" even in the NT.
Do you have rivers of water gushing from your belly also?
We hear a lot from so-called “Christians,” who call their brothers and sisters in Christ “...people who bow down to graven images.”
Perhaps you should re-consider your statement in light of the commandment to bear no false witness.
That passage does not say dead saints are interceding for us.
This is an excellent post. A little history lesson goes a long way in clearing up confusion.
I was also just discussing with hubby last night, the value of the 10 commandments when there is confusion on a moral question. Always seems to clear things up.
Christ’s command was first and foremost to love one another. All of us Protestants and Catholics alike on this thread perhaps should reflect on the condition of our hearts and whether we truly desire to bring people to God or to demonstrate ourselves to be spiritually superior and more entitled than others to a home with Jesus in Heaven.
Satan is more than happy to divide Christians and really his fingerprints are all over this thread. We should send him away and wish each other a Merry Christmas as we prepare for a celebration of Jesus’ holy birth.
Correction. She WAS a virgin.
Matthew 1:25 And knew her not untill she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Why did the Holy Spirit have them put the untill in there?
I'll guarantee they can be supported by it. Now show support from scripture for bowing down in front of graven images.
If it didn't completely agree with what is in Scripture, it would be considered heretical.
The Protestants don't understand the distinction because they do not know how to worship anyone. To worship is to give sacrifice. We worship God because we come to the sacrifice of the Holy Mass. When we start saying "mass" to Mary, then we would begin worshiping Mary.
We venerate Mary because like Our Savior we love and seek company of Mary and ask her to lead us to Christ. Obviously Jesus did not need her to lead Him to Himself, but we do what the woman in the crowd did: we venerate Mary because she kept the Word and hears It.
Learn the meaning of words and you will understand the Holy Scripture and will become Catholic like me.
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