Posted on 12/19/2014 5:48:05 AM PST by Gamecock
I found this little ditty in the comments section of a theological liberal:
Old Epicurean trilemma (although also attributed to Carneades the Skeptic):
If God is unable to prevent evil, then he is not all-powerful.
If God is not willing to prevent evil, then he is not all-good.
If God is both willing and able to prevent evil, then why does evil exist?
It sounds profound and deep, but the Bible has answered this question over and over again in its denunciation of our own goodness. When the man said to Jesus, “good teacher…” Jesus replied that only God was good. He was not speaking in hyperbole. He was making a statement about the goodness of man. We don’t have any inherent goodness in us. We are conceived in iniquity and without God’s grace in our lives, we continue on in iniquity until we receive our just rewards in the after life, a punishment that no man wants, but fully deserves.
The problem with the above statement is that those who make it assume the lie that we are born innocent and therefore, with the right education and upbringing, we can be good people. This is just not the case. As Paul wrote Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned… (Romans 5:12). If there are those born innocent and never sin, then they would never die because death is the result of sin. Yet, all sin and all die because of our inherited sinfulness.
So is God being unjust by not preventing evil? Not at all. But we must understand that if He is to wipe out all that which is evil, that means He would have to wipe out all of humanity. It is in His grace towards some that He doesn’t deal immediately with the evil that does exists. Remember that He is not slow in His coming because He still has many to save before that day, since He is not willing that any of His elect would perish.
Yes, He could stop all that is evil, but does not do so for His own glory. He will be glorified both in His dealings with the just and the unjust at the end of time
I don’t suspect that those who hold to the above position to accept my answers here. But for those of us who have tasted His grace unto salvation, we can rest assured that the truths of the Bible about God are trustworthy. Only God is good. Only God is just. And thankfully, only God is truly merciful.
Just one more thought on the above statement: it really does show the arrogance of man. Who are we to question God’s motives, intentions and plans? He is not looking to us for instruction or wisdom. The people who make such statements are foolishly arrogant, and will have to answer to God some day for their stupidity. God will not be mocked, even if their statements seem profound. But that is the foolishness of the non-believer.
AMEN.
Such simplistic and unlearned thinking is why Job had to make an offering to save his stupid “friends” from God’s wrath. Yet his friends had much more respect for God than this “all good, all powerful” junk.
“God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Case for Christianity
Don’t really understand the question, but it is in my nature to sin. I can choose to do right in attempt to live up to gift Christ has given me.
The problem with these questions is that we humans have no ability to discern what God has and is preventing. It’s my opinion that God is constantly intervening in the affairs of human beings to work His will and on occasion we do see glimpses of that.
As far as evil itself is concerned, what is evil exactly? I define it as the works human beings do that are contrary to God’s will and as such cause damage to self and others. I think God “allows” these things to happen for a couple of reasons. The first is because we do have free will. The second is because without an awareness that evil exists, we could never understand what goodness is. And we could never understand how much we are in need to communion with God and forgiveness from Him.
What I think you are saying is that God has no choice but to let man do evil. Is that correct?
However, Augustine's teaching on man's will says something quite different:
"Augustine argued that there are four states, which are derived from the Scripture, that correspond to the four states of man in relation to sin: (a) able to sin, able not to sin (posse peccare, posse non peccare); (b) not able not to sin (non posse non peccare); (c) able not to sin (posse non peccare); and (d) unable to sin (non posse peccare). The first state corresponds to the state of man in innocency, before the Fall; the second the state of the natural man after the Fall; the third the state of the regenerate man; and the fourth the glorified man.
Augustine's description of the person after the fall "not able not to sin (non posse non peccare)" is what it means for humanity to have lost the liberty of the will. Fallen man's will is free from coercion yes, but not free from necessity... ie. he sins of necessity due to a corruption of nature."
If it is in your nature to sin, what power would compel you to do right?
The power of your own free will?
Isn’t your free will bound by your sinful nature?
If so, then wouldn’t your choice to do right be made based upon self interest?
If so, then how can you claim that your “free” will is not in bondage to your nature?
Isn’t it true that in order for you to act in accordance with God’s will that you need the intervention of God to change your will?
Correction:
I can’t find the reference in “Mere Christianity” where he says he is not the best theologian. It may have been in one of his other works, or it could be based on a discussion I had with several other regarding the later chapters of his book. In either case, I retract that statement.
David was fallen man, but he (sometimes) chose to do God's will. All the prophets were fallen but obeyed God.
Abram had not yet been redeemed but did God's will.
How do you explain that?
Our best works are filthy rags.
David was fallen man, but he (sometimes) chose to do God's will. All the prophets were fallen but obeyed God.
The regenerate man is "able not to sin (posse non peccare)", which also means that he is able to sin. Would you argue that that David and the prophets were not regenerate?
(As a side note, I would point out that outwardly following God does not necessarily mean that one is trusting in God for salvation, and that is why some may appear to be outwardly Christian, but their hearts are far from God. That is why works are an indicator of one's salvation, but only an indicator.)
Abram had not yet been redeemed but did God's will.
What indication do you have that he was not redeemed? Was not Abram chosen by God? Did Abram chose to do this before God's call?
The more relevant question is “Can democrats stop evil; can they exist without it?”
Not sure God created evil; He created humans and free will. From there it was a quick jump to liberalism and global evil.
Well, I'm not sure how it worked with Abram. As you say, he was called by God and God tested him with Isaac (and in many other ways).
But as said, I'm just not sure how redemption works for the elders (since Jesus had not yet been to the Cross).
I was hoping you could tell me.;-)
The best I can do is point you to Hebrews 11 and say it is by faith, which is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-10):
Verse 6 to 8:
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, fnin reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
He could have made the decision not to create anything. That would have taken care of it.
If we don't speak again soon, I wish you and yours a Merry Christmas.
True!
But He did.
This got side tracked real quick. The point of posting was to provide a retort to snotty atheists who are trying to play gotcha, no to be a debate on the agency of man.
Oh well, that’s FR!
No, I am not saying God has no choice. I am saying that we as mortals do not have a clear view into what God is doing in this world and that we shouldn’t assume He is not intervening just because we aren’t conscious of it. I am also saying the God allows us to experience the consequences of free will because it points us back to Him.
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