Posted on 01/10/2015 5:58:49 PM PST by RnMomof7
What intrigues me about the Pharisee in this passage is that he thanked God for his moral uprightness and religious devotion. He is not claiming, perhaps like the rich, young ruler did, that he had kept God’s law and thus is deserving of eternal life. He doesn’t believe that he’s earned his salvation by works of righteousness achieved apart from divine grace. No, he goes to thank God for the grace and charity that God had worked in him, by which he has become acceptable to God. He believes that he is justified by his faith in God as well as the good works which proceed from the divinely-imparted righteousness inherent within him. And he does not go to his house justified.
(Excerpt) Read more at thecripplegate.com ...
Actually, it does! Sounds just like the many Roman Catholic threads and posters that insist ONLY the Roman Catholic church is the true church and no one can be saved outside of "her".
Your description sounds like the postings on Roman Catholicism here.
As an evangelical Christian, I’ve thoroughly tested everything that I believe, and have continued to test it as need be, because we haven’t been given all the answers. I have had no prejudice for or against any Christian belief, doctrine or church. The only thing I’ve wanted to do is let the Lord lead me into a greater knowledge and understanding of the truth, and from that, over time, I’ve slowly come to see that Roman Catholicism doesn’t stand up under examination.
As I was reading the article, I immediately thought we have all heard this routine before, but you nailed it in your first statement. Good work.
Roger that Mom. We shall know them by their fruits. The "fruits" of somone like that, would confirm what you said. Remember you told me Galatians 3 was written with this type of doctrine in mind. Roger that again. 😄
Even people outside Christianity, such as Muslims, can know they’re sinners.
The problem is that people can be proud of their humility. Liberals are often like that.
Real humility gives up all self-claims, and totally submits to God.
That’s our proper relationship - creatures completely dependent on Creator.
And the question of free will doesn’t change that. Paul addressed it, and answered that right now we don’t have the full answer, and we don’t have the right as creatures to question God.
Going by your post here and your post 18, I just want to say that I was raised moderate-liberal Lutheran in a very Catholic area, and have a Catholic relative. I considered Catholicism, too, and have listened to and watched a great amount of EWTN and Catholic radio.
From all this, I have to say that I went from looking into Catholicism, to thinking it not the best choice but as essentially holding to the Christian Gospel, to having more and more doubts and concerns about it as time goes on.
The times we live in are so bad that there is a lot of worldliness in the church in countries like the U.S., but many people still do repent and live godly lives as we’re called to as Christians.
The Catholic Church does have Christian forms, but for one thing, they’re rote. And the church’s theology truly has gone quite a ways from the Gospel as it is spelled out in Scripture. They have largely gone back to Judaism, with the idea that Catholics are taught right and wrong, and by will power and things like prayers, especially those to Mary, they’re to do right, and if they don’t, they should remember they’re committing either venial or mortal sin and go to confession, and do penance. It’s once again a performance system, and if you look at different churches, Catholics don’t even do so well at it, and they also abandon it in droves because it’s not what Christianity is about. Christianity is about getting close to God.
In the 80% Catholic area I lived 30+ years before I knew one Catholic whose faith was truly important in their lives, much less their whole life, as God wants our lives to be. Although they might give up something for Lent, and most certainly took their children through First Communion, etc., they were entirely secular and worldly in their thinking, and the few devoted born-again Christians who came along that I knew were despised as “holy rollers” and “religious freaks.” And polls and studies show that both Catholic and mainline Protestant populations correspond with more secular and post-Christian thinking and lifestyles, with only evangelical Christianity associated with Biblical thinking and behavìor. However, wealthy modern societies like ours are getting so far from Christianity that even that is changing, too.
It is fabulous to read all about my faith from all the Protestant “experts” here on FR. Really remarkable how much you all “know” about us.
Still praying for you, Mom....
However, Catholics teach that you become righteous by how many good works you do...This puts you squarely in the camp of the Pharisee...
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
You will notice the Publican trusted nothing but the mercy of Jesus for his imputed righteousness...
You are correct sir. You just described me to a T. That is exactly what I thought about the Christians before I got saved. I thought of them as interlopers, trying to disturb the religious peace, and I did not care for them even a little bit. Was I ever in for a rude awakening.
Thanks for the article.
Well said.
Same here.
The Pharisee’s gospel was the gospel of Roman Catholicism. Roman Catholicism teaches that upon believing in Christ, the sinner is graciously made practically righteous by the infusion or impartation of righteousness to the believer. This inherent righteousness increases as the believer pursues good works and charity. Final salvation is a reward for such works of merit combined with faith
here is a test I like to give those who reject the Universal Faith believed for 2,000 years and who THINK they know what that Faith teaches:
a man named Jim was raised in a home by atheists, he grew up to be a thief and liar, spending time in and out of jail. when he was 42, during one of his robberies, he shot and killed a store owner. he was promptly arrested, tried and convicted for the crime of murder. he was given the death penalty.
while in prison and sitting on death row, he was befriended by a Catholic guard who witnessed to him of Jesus Christ and that Jesus died on cross for the forgiveness of sins. after many months of conversations and on the day Jim was scheduled to be put to death, he told his friend to call in a priest because Jim wanted to finally become a Christian.
a priest entered Jim’s cell, Jim made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ and the priest baptized him.
five minutes later, Jim was taken from his cell and hung.
Jim never did a good work in his life and was a murderer, thief and liar.
according to the Catholic Faith, what happened to Jim’s soul when he died??
here is another test I like to give :
a child named John is raised in a Baptist household by parents who were strong believers in the Baptist faith. they took John to church each week, read the Bible with him and taught him the Gospel.
when John was 15, he accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior and was baptized in front of the Baptist congregation as a public testimony of his being saved.
for the next three years, John was very zealous in his faith and thanked Jesus daily for dying for his sins.
When he turned 18, John went away to college and gradually his love for the Lord was replaced by booze, women and gambling. At 25, he stopped reading the Bible and going to church. At age 32, he lost his faith altogether and declared himself to be an atheist. a few years later, he divorced his wife and ran away and married his secretary.
at age 65, he died completely rejecting Jesus and his work on the cross.
according to the Scriptures, where will John soul spend eternity?
According to Calvinists he was never saved and is in Hell. According to Catholics, he walked away from the grace he once had and is in Hell. To most Lutherans, he was born again, and he may or may not go to heaven...not for us to question. According to Methodists, he just found another path to heaven.
The 2000+ years claim always seems like advertising or even attempted subliminal brainwashing when slipped into a sentence that way. And as for the claim itself, I won’t go into all the ways that the Catholic Church is different from the faith presented in Scripture, as I have before in posts, but will just say look at how the pope and bishops dress. And look at the Vatican, and even the grand churches. Modernism appealed to me as a teenager, and then after learning a lot of history in college, grand churches did in my 20’s. But once I grew deeper in my faith and read the whole Bible, I saw all of it for the religion it is. Religion weighs down, and those grand churches turn the actual church, the people, into slaves to the upkeep of them, and so into business enterprises. The Christian people in Europe are taxed for their upkeep. That is so very far from the New Testament. And faith is not an external building, but internal in a person.
On the dress of the pope and bishops, too, I went back to my impression as a child. I didn’t know much at all, but the very basics of the Gospel, which I believed, but just from seeing the Catholic pope, and observing how he appeared before the crowds, it seemed so out of place with the senses the Gospel gave me, that it was a little disturbing to me as a child. And with the much more I now know and understand, I can see why I got that impression. The dress of leaders and the grand buildings aren’t just superficial trappings, but reflect the Catholic Church’s drift from the Gospel.
On your questions, they are in many ways straw men. Where will Catholics like Nancy Pelosi and Ted Kennedy go when they die?
The example of the killer who becomes a Catholic Christian due to the prison guard is far less common than those who become Christians due to evangelicals. Catholics feel far less of a need to share their faith, as studies have shown, and I know that personally as well. And if the man accepted Christ as his savior, then He was saved. On the answer you’re looking for, I’m not sure what Catholics would answer, but I imagine you will say either Heaven or purgatory, to work off his sins, although I know Catholics can believe people released from purgatory for different reasons.
On the other example, no one can say definitely that anyone else goes to Hell. But we are to discern things, and if that man did all that you said, he would be considered to, going on what’s known, not to have ever been born again to begin with. In a Baptist church there is no age for children to get baptized. They have to accept Jesus for themselves, and they are taught Scripture from an early age, and about giving their lives wholly and entirely to Him. Faith is not just in a corner of their lives. However, even here I see things changing in the U.S. because the church is accommodating itself to the world around it, and the world is getting further and further away from the Lord. But evangelicals are still behind on where mainline Protestants and Catholics are with that.
On the example of the second man, then, if had been saved, he would have persevered. The Bible has a lot to say on that. My question to you is what does Catholicism say about him if he’d been Catholic.
“on the answer you’re looking for, I’m not sure how Catholics would answer”
____________
thank you for your honesty and making my point. 99% of the posts on FR where so called Catholic Faith is presented and opined on come from posters that have your level of knowledge.
caveat emptor
When one understands the commitment they make to Christ, and they choose to walk far from Him thereafter, I believe if one truly knows the Lord and is saved, he cannot walk that way for long without missing the savior they first loved.
Some people want it all....they want to claim their salvation and also continue to live life as they want with all it’s trappings...some can even justify themselves and still claim they are the Lords.
As for this man....I find what is missing is how many times was he approached about the path he was on...and how many times did he continue to choose the path he took.
I believe God seeks those sheep caught in the thickets when they’ve strayed. But some will struggle against the hand of the Lord to pull them out. They may in fact sufficate themselves in the process.
Where is He after death....not our call.
**You will notice the Publican trusted nothing but the mercy of Jesus for his imputed righteousness... **
Exactly, that’s why Catholic have the Sacraments of Baptism and Reconciliation/Penance.
No, you mistook what I said. It might not have been clear enough, but nevertheless you lifted it out of the middle of a sentence and gave it meaning clearly not intended. I’m writing on a little phone with an external keyboard, and it isn’t easy because I type fast enough that the keyboard often overwhelms the phone and shuts it down. I have to be careful to save often. So I’m a little distracted while writing and didn’t make what I meant as clear I’d meant to. I am not sure all the Catholics here would even answer your question in exactly the same way, but you didn’t ask them, but some evangelicals, so we won’t know now.
And I worked quite a bit to address the issues brought up as completely as possible, but as is all too common here, it seems you will not reply to what I wrote, but only take one small thing, part of a sentence, out of context. As I’ve mentioned, I’ve had no prejudice for or against any Christian belief, doctrine or church. I have only wanted, and still want, the Lord to reveal whatever the truth is to me. That is the only thing that makes sense.
Years ago I lived as a lesbian, in 2000 I voted for Al Gore and Hillary Clinton for Senator, and I considered registering to be a Communist sometime after 9/11. But I believed that I was a sinner, and Jesus was and is God’s Son and the Savior of the world, and from that belief God has revealed many things to be as I didn’t understand them to be. If the Catholic Church had the best fruits and the most biblical doctrines, then I’d join it. And knowing how I didn’t understand things in the past, I want to let the Lord lead me and possibly change how I understand them. So I look without prejudice at the Catholic Church even today, and would allow the Lord to change my mind about it, but again I see all the ways in which it has moved from the faith revealed in the Bible. As an unmarried Christian woman who, if I were a man, could become a pastor now but can’t since I’m a woman, becoming a Catholic nun would actually in a way make sense to me, especially since I have a college education from a good university, but primarily because I don’t swear or laugh at dirty videos, I’m “stuck” right now - or appear to be - in an entry level fast food job while in my 40’s. But I would be miserable being a Catholic, and just could never do it. Listening to the Rosary pains and disturbs me, so I couldn’t pray it, just for starters. Being a Catholic and a nun, then, is out of the question.
But I know I am also not “stuck” in my job, except that the Lord has “stuck” me where I am as part of His plan. I see Him working in my current situation in all sorts of ways. When I look at things in the superficial, worldly way, I can forget that, but when I remind myself of the truth, then I see that the faith the Lord has given me sets me apart from those where I work who are without it, and that it’s a witness to them. These people can’t deny that I’m doing this job that they feel ashamed of and frustrated with, and doing it with peace, patience and joy, even while being open to “doing more,” in a worldly sense, if the Lord has me to. But whatever the circumstances, I know I have the only necessary thing, a relationship with the Savior, Jesus. And I am fulfilled to see the Lord acting in me, and through me.
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