How We Got the Bible

Whatever are you talking about?

Seems people do not want to engage the actual question I am asking. Wonder why.

I actually provided a NT framework to discuss this topic. As I stated previously, the first area to address is 'who' adds souls to the church.

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>> “One needs to think about what they were thinking and doing in the 4th century, when this was undecided.” <<

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It was undecided only for the unbelievers that founded the RCC at that time.

Three centuries earlier, the followers of the Way of Yeshua were well aware that all they needed defined was the Tanakh that Yeshua was so good as to affirm for them.

No one with that level of authority has come along since, so it appears that questions WRT the NT writings will remain a matter between the believer and the Holy Spirit.
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I'll add to my earlier response: Luther wrote, Catholics did. Some were made 'Saints' for it.

He was a very prolific writer and quite the professor of religion. It's no surprise he has disciples.

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about,blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), itwould be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

In Deuteronomy 13:12 Moses writes that any city that is given to idolatry shall be totally destroyed by fire, and nothing of it shall be preserved.If he were alive today, he would be the first to set fire to the synagogues and houses of the Jews. For in Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 he commanded very explicitly that nothing is to be added to or subtracted from his law. AndSamuel says in I Samuel 15:23 that disobedience to God is idolatry. Now the Jews' doctrine at present is nothing but the additions of the rabbis and the idolatry of disobedience, so that Moses has become entirely unknown among them (as we said before), just as the Bible became unknown under the papacy in our day. So also, for Moses' sake, their schools cannot be tolerated; they defame him just as much as they do us. It is not necessary that they have their own free churches for such idolatry.

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. -Matthew, Catholic chapter twelve, Protestant verses thirty three to thirty seven, as authorized by King James

You bet, he told the biblical truth about the wayward ways of the Catholic church. And he was a professor of religion, a real expositor of God’s truth. Your interest in his AS is fascinating, perhaps if you spent part of that time on your Vicars, your outrage might be more believable. The best part, you could stay in the same time frame, a couple of years after his death, and see how much influence he still had over the Papacy. But it is now obvious that to some AS is terrible except when administered the ‘right’ way by the OTC.

It is also fascinating to see you drop all pretenses and embrace Luther. But know this, I view a religious movement founded by Luther to be prima facie illegitimate.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might belodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

I view a religious movement founded by Luther to be prima facie illegitimate.

Wow, coming from a Catholic that is a real surprise, a heretic who Rome couldn't kill. A shame he wasn't Jewish, Catholics always had better luck with them. Once the OTC combines forces with the Muslims chances are they'll have a chance to get the successors. How is that outrage over the OTC's AS coming? Worked any up yet?

http://www.zionism-israel.com/hdoc/Papal_Bulls_Jews.htm

Special badges or dress for Jews
Special taxes for Jews
Forcing Jews to remit debt of Christians
Banning, confiscating or burning Jewish law books and other writings.
Encouraging or forcing conversion of Jews
Expelling Jews from Papal territories or forcing Jews to live in ghettos.
Inquisition for backsliding converted Jews

Where have we seen these in the 20th century?

“To be deep in Scripture is to cease to be a Catholic.....”

Always count on a fallen away Catholic for a good laugh.

Wow, coming from a Catholic that is a real surprise, a heretic who Rome couldn't kill. A shame he wasn't Jewish, Catholics always had better luck with them. Once the OTC combines forces with the Muslims chances are they'll have a chance to get the successors. How is that outrage over the OTC's AS coming? Worked any up yet?

More instructions from your false apostle and religion:
Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in whichsuch idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17:10) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you inaccord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16:18, "You are Peter," etc., inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they arenot lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home. I have heard it said that a rich Jew is now traveling across the country with twelve horses his ambition is to become a Kokhba devouring princes, lords, lands, and people with his usury, so that the great lords view it with jealous eyes. If you great lords and princes will not forbid such usurers the highway legally, some day a troop may gather against them, having learned from this booklet the true nature of the Jews and how one shoulddeal with them and not protect their activities. For you, too, must not and cannot protect them unless you wish to become participants in an their abominations in the sight of God. Consider carefully what good could come from this, and prevent it.

BST 20 Aug 2000
JEWISH leaders have served warning that the Vatican’s plan to beatify a controversial 19th-century pontiff is likely to set back “seriously” the progress in Jewish-Catholic reconciliation made during Pope John Paul II’s historic visit to Israel in the spring.
Pope Pius IX, who forced the Jews of Rome back behind the walls of the city’s ghetto in 1848, has been accused of pursuing virulently anti-Semitic policies. Despite this, he is due to be beatified - the last step before sainthood - on September 3.
There is particular shock in Israel at the Vatican move because it was thought that the papal pilgrimage to the Holy Land in March had opened a new chapter in Catholic-Jewish relations. Many Israelis were deeply moved when the Pope approached the “Wailing Wall” in Jerusalem, placed a note in a crevice asking forgiveness from God for past sins of his Church, and committed Catholics to future brotherhood with Jews.
Last week, Jews in Israel and elsewhere said that they planned to intensify their protests against the proposed beatification. They are being supported by some members who served on the original Vatican commission in the Eighties that first proposed that Pius IX be beatified. One, Padre Giacomo Martina, a Jesuit historian, now says he regrets the decision. Many conservatives in the Vatican however are adamant that the beatification will proceed as planned. Monsignor Carlo Liberati, the Vatican official conducting the beatification preparations, said that Jewish protests would be ignored.
Objections to the move are quite distinct from those against plans to beatify another pontiff, the wartime Pope, Pius XII, who has been dubbed “Hitler’s Pope” because of his alleged failure to criticise the Nazi round-up and subsequent murder of European Jews.
Related Articles
Following concerted pressure from Jewish objectors and liberal Catholics, the latter beatification proposals are thought to have been quietly suspended. Now, however, Jews have been shocked to discover that, instead, the Vatican intends to beatify Pius IX, who was Pope from 1846 to 1878. They point out that Pius IX frequently made anti-Semitic remarks in his speeches. In one address, he is said to have called Jews “dogs of which there are too many present in Rome, howling and disturbing us everywhere”.
Pius IX forced the Jews of Rome back into the old ghetto to which they had been confined for centuries, and in the following year, 1849, he enacted racial laws against them. At a time when the emancipation of Jews was well under way elsewhere in Europe, Jews were banned from public hospitals, prevented from giving evidence against Christians in papal courts and excluded from all institutes of secondary and higher education.
According to Israeli historians, these laws were the forerunners of the race regulations passed by Mussolini as a gesture to appease Hitler. Jewish assessments of Pius IX have been backed up by many non-Jewish historians. Prof Owen Chadwick, a leading British church scholar, says that the 19th-century pontiff’s record “verges on the criminal”.
The campaign to beatify Pius IX has been promoted by conservatives in the Vatican. They say they wish to celebrate his “heroic values” for standing up against the creation of a secular Italy, and to confirm him as “a model of Christian life”. Pius IX’s reign was the longest of any Pope. His supporters believe that he should be beatified for proclaiming the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, and later for championing the doctrine of papal infallibility.
Jews and liberal Catholics see Pius IX in a different light. They point to one incident, in particular, as reason enough why beatification is inappropriate. In a case which caused an international outcry, Pius IX sanctioned the forced kidnap and baptism of a six-year-old Jewish boy, Edgardo Levi Mortara, who was taken from his parents in 1858. The pontiff ordered his guards to seize Edgardo from his home in Bologna, which at the time was under papal jurisdiction.
Edgardo was brought to Rome, renamed Pius, and kept in the custody of the Pope - effectively being adopted by him as his own son. The incident sparked a public outcry and a wave of international protests. The New York Times carried no fewer than 20 editorials on the case. Several heads of state, including Emperors Franz Joseph of Austria and Napoleon III of France, urged the Pope to give up the child, but Pius IX refused. “If I were Pius IX, I would have baptised the Mortara boy, too,” Monsignor Liberati said. He added that the episode had to be seen in the context of another age.

BST 20 Aug 2000
JEWISH leaders have served warning that the Vatican’s plan to beatify a controversial 19th-century pontiff is likely to set back “seriously” the progress in Jewish-Catholic reconciliation made during Pope John Paul II’s historic visit to Israel in the spring.
Pope Pius IX, who forced the Jews of Rome back behind the walls of the city’s ghetto in 1848, has been accused of pursuing virulently anti-Semitic policies. Despite this, he is due to be beatified - the last step before sainthood - on September 3.
There is particular shock in Israel at the Vatican move because it was thought that the papal pilgrimage to the Holy Land in March had opened a new chapter in Catholic-Jewish relations. Many Israelis were deeply moved when the Pope approached the “Wailing Wall” in Jerusalem, placed a note in a crevice asking forgiveness from God for past sins of his Church, and committed Catholics to future brotherhood with Jews.
Last week, Jews in Israel and elsewhere said that they planned to intensify their protests against the proposed beatification. They are being supported by some members who served on the original Vatican commission in the Eighties that first proposed that Pius IX be beatified. One, Padre Giacomo Martina, a Jesuit historian, now says he regrets the decision. Many conservatives in the Vatican however are adamant that the beatification will proceed as planned. Monsignor Carlo Liberati, the Vatican official conducting the beatification preparations, said that Jewish protests would be ignored.
Objections to the move are quite distinct from those against plans to beatify another pontiff, the wartime Pope, Pius XII, who has been dubbed “Hitler’s Pope” because of his alleged failure to criticise the Nazi round-up and subsequent murder of European Jews.

Related Articles
Following concerted pressure from Jewish objectors and liberal Catholics, the latter beatification proposals are thought to have been quietly suspended. Now, however, Jews have been shocked to discover that, instead, the Vatican intends to beatify Pius IX, who was Pope from 1846 to 1878. They point out that Pius IX frequently made anti-Semitic remarks in his speeches. In one address, he is said to have called Jews “dogs of which there are too many present in Rome, howling and disturbing us everywhere”.
Pius IX forced the Jews of Rome back into the old ghetto to which they had been confined for centuries, and in the following year, 1849, he enacted racial laws against them. At a time when the emancipation of Jews was well under way elsewhere in Europe, Jews were banned from public hospitals, prevented from giving evidence against Christians in papal courts and excluded from all institutes of secondary and higher education.
According to Israeli historians, these laws were the forerunners of the race regulations passed by Mussolini as a gesture to appease Hitler. Jewish assessments of Pius IX have been backed up by many non-Jewish historians. Prof Owen Chadwick, a leading British church scholar, says that the 19th-century pontiff’s record “verges on the criminal”.
The campaign to beatify Pius IX has been promoted by conservatives in the Vatican. They say they wish to celebrate his “heroic values” for standing up against the creation of a secular Italy, and to confirm him as “a model of Christian life”. Pius IX’s reign was the longest of any Pope. His supporters believe that he should be beatified for proclaiming the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, and later for championing the doctrine of papal infallibility.
Jews and liberal Catholics see Pius IX in a different light. They point to one incident, in particular, as reason enough why beatification is inappropriate. In a case which caused an international outcry, Pius IX sanctioned the forced kidnap and baptism of a six-year-old Jewish boy, Edgardo Levi Mortara, who was taken from his parents in 1858. The pontiff ordered his guards to seize Edgardo from his home in Bologna, which at the time was under papal jurisdiction.
Edgardo was brought to Rome, renamed Pius, and kept in the custody of the Pope - effectively being adopted by him as his own son. The incident sparked a public outcry and a wave of international protests. The New York Times carried no fewer than 20 editorials on the case. Several heads of state, including Emperors Franz Joseph of Austria and Napoleon III of France, urged the Pope to give up the child, but Pius IX refused. “If I were Pius IX, I would have baptised the Mortara boy, too,” Monsignor Liberati said. He added that the episode had to be seen in the context of another age.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/1353501/Fury-over-plan-to-beatify-anti-Semite-Pope.html

Where exactly do you see that? Where, beyond a sola apologetic? How do you know that your scenario is what happened?

Easy, it is implicit in Scripture, in which men discerned what is of God versus what is not, without an infallible magisterium. Do you deny that? Tell me how the Scriptures, by which substantiation the NT church established Truth claims upon, came to be established as authoritative Scripture.

And how come you did not answer my questions?

And how come you did not answer my questions?

Because I have no interest in the magisterium. I asked a simple question in post 59. It is based on a snip from the OP. Of course, it is the acme of foolishness to try to discuss the content of the article that was posted.

So your *Aha!* falls flat.

I was simply expressing satisfaction that someone had acknowledged that the concept exists. Still waiting for how the invisible church could reach consensus on which writings comprise Holy Scripture.

All I have gotten is argument from conclusion.

If you are referring to what is included in the BIBLE, that’s one thing. Deciding what is included in Scripture is GOD’S repsonsibility, not man’s.

I do not understand. Are you positing a difference between Bible and Scripture?

Your first instinct was to take credit for God’s word and work. Such statements as we invented, wrote, saved, made, interpreted, and what ever other word says a lot about the spiritual maturity of some posters. God uses all types of people, things, and institutions for his good will and purpose. Just because you have been used or will be used is NOT any indication of your Salvation or your status in God’s eye.

Romans 9:17 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Romans 9:20 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?”

Unfortunately for your denomination the very Bible that you claim so much disagrees with your Catechism and condemns your faith. That Scripture is the Holy Spirit screaming at you come out of her and save yourself.

And what resulted from these 'instructions'? Nothing. No pogrom by Lutherans abusing Jews. Yet the OTC continued its abuses until the 20th century. Luther talked Catholics did over centuries. Some Catholics are apparently irony challenged. A Papal Bull as late as 1755 Bull Beatus Andreas.

1904 Pope Pius X the Saintly: "I know, it is disagreeable to see the Turks in possession of our Holy Places. We simply have to put up with it. But to sanction the Jewish wish to occupy these sites, that we cannot do... The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people... If you go to Palestine and your people settle there, you will find us clergy and churches ready to baptize you all" At least they quit killing them.

1933 during the rise of Naziism: In a series of Advent sermons, Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich defends the Old Testament against Nazi attacks but emphasizes that it is not his intention to defend contemporary Jewry, saying that a distinction has to be drawn between Jews living before and after the crucifixion of Jesus. Very special. No wonder your Nazi testifies against Luther, they already had German Catholics on the team.

And on it went. Luther published a polemic.

That can’t be, Luther was dead!