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Rejecting Mariology
Two-Edged Sword ^ | February 05, 2007 | Lee

Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7

It is often claimed the Mary was heralded by the Patristics as a woman full of grace, perhaps sinless, and deserving our veneration above other departed saints as the Mother of the Church. This is not the case. While I do freely admit that the word Patristic can be used to cover a variety of ages, I prefer to use it to the pre-nicaean leaders of the church. Let us start with them, and we can move on from there.

In the Apostolic Fathers, as the first century leaders are often called, one sees little to no mention of Mary at all. Clement of Rome leaves her out of his epistle completely. This is a glaring omission for ‘Mary full of grace’ since Clement’s entire letter is about submission, faith, and peace. Clement uses as examples of Christian living Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, David, and several martyrs in addition to Jesus Christ. Beyond that he even uses a few women as examples. Rahab gets the most ink as a wonderful example of faith, two women killed by Nero are mentioned, Esther get a paragraph, as does Judith from the Apocrypha. But no Mary. First century writers seem to view Mary as a good believer, but nothing more, much like Protestants today.

Second century writers turn up the first exaltation references to Mary, but even these are over stated. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all try to draw Mary as the anti-type of Eve as Jesus was of Adam. This leads to some grandiose statements about Mary, but the ancient mind often thought more typologically and allegorically then we do today. These men did not have any allusions about Mary being above sin (original or actual). In fact Irenaeus condemns Mary as a sinner for her role in the Wedding of Cana arguing that Jesus rebukes her for her presumptuous pride. Tertullian along with other second century leaders like Origen and later writers like Basil the Great and Chrysostom (4th century) all ascribe to Mary the sins of maternal vanity, anxiety, and doubt and state that the ‘sword’ that pierces Mary’s soul in Luke 2:35 are these sins. Hardly a high view of Mary despite their typological attempts.

The rise of Mary really follows the rise of Monasticism and the encroachment of Neo-platonism into Christianity. The third and fourth centuries see apocryphal texts like the Gospel of the birth of Mary, which were all condemned by the church as a whole, but eventually the teachings of these books would be folded into the Mariology of the Roman church. The asceticism of the monastic orders arising from their neo-platonic view of the flesh exalted Mary as the ultimate example and claimed for her perpetual virginity. This helped give their life-style a bigger backing as well as giving them a patron saint.

The controversies of the 5th century about Christ led to Mary being the Mother of God as a test of orthodoxy. Mother of God was not meant to convey anything at all about Mary, but rather something about the natures of Jesus. However, it would come to be twisted to elevate Mary into something higher than merely human. The first person to actually advocate Mary did not have any actual or original sin was Pelegius, the free-will opponent of Augustine. During this time also one must remember that Rome was destroyed by the uneducated and pagan barbarians. As the centers of learning were destroyed the educated clergy could no longer restrain phrases like ‘Mother of God’ and Mariology became Marialotry took on a life of its own as the masses carried Mary to extremes she was never meant to reach. By the time of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, Mary was installed in her current position for the Roman church. Gregory freely instructed his missionaries to the barbarians not to destroy pagan temples, but rename them and the statues in them. Many pagan temples were to women, and Mary worship was well on its way.

Thus, I do not think Protestantism needs a Mariology at all. Mary is a wonderful example of saintly piety and faith as are many people in the Bible. She should not be avoided for she is the mother of our Lord. But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ. This is, after all, exactly what our Lord teaches in Matthew 12:47-50.

‘Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.’



TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christ; mary; worship
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To: metmom
Mary gave birth [physically] to one child--Jesus, Our Lord.

...and Revelation 12 says that she is the mother of "those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus". No Christian would refuse to count himself among that number... or do you reject what the Bible says, here?
21 posted on 03/23/2015 2:56:29 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan; MeganC; RnMomof7
>>But why mention this? Is there some suggestion that someone (or some group) is actually deifying Mary?<<

It's obvious to anyone with open eyes. Catholics give many of the attributes and glory due God alone. They claim they "venerate" her but don't realize what "venerate" is and what the word actually originally meant.

Venerate - from Latin veneratus, past participle of venerari "to reverence, worship"

22 posted on 03/23/2015 2:56:43 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: RaceBannon

You are not telling the entire story of Cana.

Then she said to the servants: “Do whatever he says.”

Those are her last words in the Bible. Do you do whatever her Son says?


23 posted on 03/23/2015 2:56:50 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Boogieman
John never calls Mary anything in that vision. He speaks of “the woman”, not of Mary. Conflating that woman with Mary is strictly a Catholic interpretation.

St. John says that the woman "brought forth a male child, One who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron", and "her Child was caught up to God and to His throne". Are you denying that this child is Jesus? Or is that mere "Catholic interpretation", as well?
24 posted on 03/23/2015 2:58:36 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: Salvation

HE told me to do what HE says, too
You seem to skip over who is more important


25 posted on 03/23/2015 2:59:34 PM PDT by RaceBannon (Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for)
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To: jobim; RnMomof7
>>Rather, ask yourselves, why after 1500 and 17 years, did some fallen individuals begin declaring that she was nothing special?<<

Ask yourself. Why not one word about Mary after Pentecost? Nothing about where she lived, where she died or anything. Not a word from either religious or secular writers until centuries later.

26 posted on 03/23/2015 3:00:12 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear
...and some people don't know English etymology, very well.

"Worship" = "worth-ship" = "condition of being worthy"; even in older marriage ceremonies, the bride and groom said to each other, "With my body, I thee worship"... which didn't, despite all hysterical Catholic-phobic interpretations to the contrary, mean that the bride and groom were committing idolatry. The modern meaning of the word "worship" is what used to be meant by the word "adoration" (which is now used, ironically, for babies, kittens, etc.).
27 posted on 03/23/2015 3:01:18 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan

“Mary, for example, doesn’t need to handle “millions of prayers per second” (those are scare quotes, not direct quotes, BTW); she has all eternity in which to respond to them.”

Ha! So your concept of heaven is one where Mary is just eternally working her way through an “inbox” that is overflowing, with requests that God (being actually omniscient and omnipotent) could just take care of with no effort at all. I think that is even sillier.

Anyway, you didn’t actually address my point, since my point was about omniscience, not omnipotence. In order to hear prayers from all over the world, especially silent prayers that are made inside a person’s head, requires omniscience, which is one of the attributes of a deity. Saying that there is no time in heaven doesn’t address that difficulty with the Catholic position.


28 posted on 03/23/2015 3:02:27 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: CynicalBear
Ask yourself. Why not one word about Mary after Pentecost?

In the Bible, you mean? I ask, because Protestants have a tendency to ignore Church history when it isn't in the 66-book fragment which Protestants call "the Bible". And if anyone suggests that mention of Mary wasn't until "centuries later", then I'd suggest that such people look again.
29 posted on 03/23/2015 3:04:41 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: paladinan
There's no "rushing" or "waiting", etc., in Heaven.
Not IN heaven, that's true, but I've heard there's one heckuva "meet and greet" line wrapped thrice around the outside of heaven, packed full of protestants, just waiting, and waiting, and waiting, to see Our Lady.
30 posted on 03/23/2015 3:09:25 PM PDT by mlizzy ("Tell your troubles to Jesus," my wisecracking father used to say, and now I do.......at adoration.)
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To: paladinan
Revelation 14:7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

Worship belongs to God alone.

31 posted on 03/23/2015 3:09:29 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear

Thank you.


32 posted on 03/23/2015 3:10:18 PM PDT by MeganC (You can ignore reality, but reality won't ignore you.)
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To: paladinan

no, Mary gave birth to several children according to the Bible

Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Firstborn, meaning more than one

Mt 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, [his] mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mt 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mt 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mt 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mt 12:50 For who soever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Here, Jesus rebuked the crowd, plainly saying that even though his siblings were present, that those who believed on Him were brothers, also, not just blood relations

The Apostle James is called the Lord’s Brother, family, blood brother
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.


33 posted on 03/23/2015 3:13:18 PM PDT by RaceBannon (Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for)
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To: paladinan
You miss my point

I am a sinful man ... born again, yet sinful .. like Paul and Archelaus ...

And sinful men think sinful thoughts .... not goody two shoed, I lied four times, father ... thoughts .... but really, really sinful thoughts

And My comment was about the writer stating that thr rise and popularity of Mary emerged from the monastaries

Monastaries are places men go to be alone (hopefully) with God

Men ... sinful men trying to get away from their own sinfulness (which is impossible) CAN be (mis)directed to think on other things and perhaps .... PERHAPS ... Mary was the target for those impure thoughts and in order to cover their impurity, they exalted her above all humanity

I don't know

Who knows WHY Catholics exalt and reverence Mary as they do

MY comment was purely flesh speculation based on the author's stating the exaltation of Mary seemed to begin in the monastaries


Add your own sinful thoughts .... mariolotry is most obviously a wasted energy

34 posted on 03/23/2015 3:14:47 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: sparklite2; paladinan
"Isn’t the title of Queen of the Universe deification?"

No. No more than the Prom Queen can be said to have the power to legislate for your high school, or that coronation of the Erie County Strawberry Queen shows that Erie County is a monarchy.

You have to discern what kind of queen you're talking about.

In the case of Mary, it's strictly a relational thing: Christ her Son is King of Kings; that makes her Queen Mother by relationship alone. It does not indicate personal sovereignty.

It corresponds to an outstanding Biblical image:

"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."

35 posted on 03/23/2015 3:16:46 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Seriously.)
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To: paladinan

Yeah, yeah, yeah, just reams of information about her from both secular and religious writers of the first century right? LOL! That Catholic Church doesn’t even know where she was buried.


36 posted on 03/23/2015 3:22:18 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Boogieman

You don’t seem to think we’re going to amount to much when we’re glorified in heaven. It’s not just Mary, you see. It’s all who are In Christ. Thousands, millions, of every tribe, nation, language, tongue.


37 posted on 03/23/2015 3:22:24 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Seriously.)
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To: CynicalBear
Worship belongs to God alone.

The word in English is ambiguous, and originally meant any kind of high honor. That's why some English judges are addressed as "Your Worship".

The word in Greek is not ambiguous. "Latreia" is the worship or honor due to God alone, and is not to be given to Mary or any other created being.

38 posted on 03/23/2015 3:25:17 PM PDT by Campion
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To: knarf
Who knows WHY Catholics exalt and reverence Mary as they do

Maybe you should ... get this ... actually ask Catholics and allow for the possibility that they could answer you accurately, and in good faith?

We could start, for example, with a discussion of Luke 1:48.

39 posted on 03/23/2015 3:28:10 PM PDT by Campion
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To: RnMomof7
The very title ("Rejecting Mariology") is rather a gaffe. "Mariology" means the study of Mary; it doesn't imply adoration of Mary, any more than "Geology" implies adoration of the earth.

The word thr author is looking for, is "Mariolatry." "Latria" is adoration.

The Catholic Church does not offer Mary "Latria" (LINK)

We give her "Hypedulia", which means, the highest honor given to a human person, which is entirely due to what God her Savior has done for Mary, a lowly handmaid.

Luke 1 should pretty much clear that up.

40 posted on 03/23/2015 3:32:12 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Seriously.)
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