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Rejecting Mariology
Two-Edged Sword ^ | February 05, 2007 | Lee

Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7

It is often claimed the Mary was heralded by the Patristics as a woman full of grace, perhaps sinless, and deserving our veneration above other departed saints as the Mother of the Church. This is not the case. While I do freely admit that the word Patristic can be used to cover a variety of ages, I prefer to use it to the pre-nicaean leaders of the church. Let us start with them, and we can move on from there.

In the Apostolic Fathers, as the first century leaders are often called, one sees little to no mention of Mary at all. Clement of Rome leaves her out of his epistle completely. This is a glaring omission for ‘Mary full of grace’ since Clement’s entire letter is about submission, faith, and peace. Clement uses as examples of Christian living Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, David, and several martyrs in addition to Jesus Christ. Beyond that he even uses a few women as examples. Rahab gets the most ink as a wonderful example of faith, two women killed by Nero are mentioned, Esther get a paragraph, as does Judith from the Apocrypha. But no Mary. First century writers seem to view Mary as a good believer, but nothing more, much like Protestants today.

Second century writers turn up the first exaltation references to Mary, but even these are over stated. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all try to draw Mary as the anti-type of Eve as Jesus was of Adam. This leads to some grandiose statements about Mary, but the ancient mind often thought more typologically and allegorically then we do today. These men did not have any allusions about Mary being above sin (original or actual). In fact Irenaeus condemns Mary as a sinner for her role in the Wedding of Cana arguing that Jesus rebukes her for her presumptuous pride. Tertullian along with other second century leaders like Origen and later writers like Basil the Great and Chrysostom (4th century) all ascribe to Mary the sins of maternal vanity, anxiety, and doubt and state that the ‘sword’ that pierces Mary’s soul in Luke 2:35 are these sins. Hardly a high view of Mary despite their typological attempts.

The rise of Mary really follows the rise of Monasticism and the encroachment of Neo-platonism into Christianity. The third and fourth centuries see apocryphal texts like the Gospel of the birth of Mary, which were all condemned by the church as a whole, but eventually the teachings of these books would be folded into the Mariology of the Roman church. The asceticism of the monastic orders arising from their neo-platonic view of the flesh exalted Mary as the ultimate example and claimed for her perpetual virginity. This helped give their life-style a bigger backing as well as giving them a patron saint.

The controversies of the 5th century about Christ led to Mary being the Mother of God as a test of orthodoxy. Mother of God was not meant to convey anything at all about Mary, but rather something about the natures of Jesus. However, it would come to be twisted to elevate Mary into something higher than merely human. The first person to actually advocate Mary did not have any actual or original sin was Pelegius, the free-will opponent of Augustine. During this time also one must remember that Rome was destroyed by the uneducated and pagan barbarians. As the centers of learning were destroyed the educated clergy could no longer restrain phrases like ‘Mother of God’ and Mariology became Marialotry took on a life of its own as the masses carried Mary to extremes she was never meant to reach. By the time of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, Mary was installed in her current position for the Roman church. Gregory freely instructed his missionaries to the barbarians not to destroy pagan temples, but rename them and the statues in them. Many pagan temples were to women, and Mary worship was well on its way.

Thus, I do not think Protestantism needs a Mariology at all. Mary is a wonderful example of saintly piety and faith as are many people in the Bible. She should not be avoided for she is the mother of our Lord. But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ. This is, after all, exactly what our Lord teaches in Matthew 12:47-50.

‘Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.’



TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christ; mary; worship
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; RnMomof7
Protestants sometimes object to the term, “Protestant,” preferring the label, “Christian,” instead. But their Christianity seems to consist almost entirely of protesting against Catholic doctrines and practices. Perhaps it’s because “we’re not Catholic!” is the only doctrine all Protestants agree on, except for “Sola Scriptura.”

On the contrary, I'd say the vast majority of "Protestants" never give Roman Catholicism a second thought. Perhaps four or five centuries ago it was not necessarily so, but no one defines their faith by what they don't believe. I think that is more a propaganda or pretended persecution tactic of argumentative RCs - especially so on these RF threads, it seems.

What I find bemusing is when a non-Catholic posts a thread discussing what IS believed on certain topics, little time elapses before some Roman Catholic joins in to assert whatever was stated in the article is wrong/in error and had to have been posted for polemical purposes and is anti-Catholic. Heavens forbid if it is a former Catholic testifying to why he/she left Catholicism for a non-Catholic denomination!

And while we are on THAT subject...explain why FRoman Catholics feel perfectly justified in posting threads explaining all the things Protestants get wrong and how Catholicism is the superior and "full" Christian faith or threads that boast of former Protestants who came "home" to Rome, and then pitch a fit if a non-Catholic dares express disagreement? A few have even astoundingly asserted there NEVER is or have been threads that are anti-Protestant! Irony indeed!

321 posted on 03/25/2015 3:06:35 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; DungeonMaster
Jesus absolutely affirms that these who have gone on before --- Moses and Elijah, like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob --- are alive in Him. Do you actually think that Moses and Elijah are "dead"? Jesus says (Mark 12:24-27) "You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God... You are very much mistaken."

Jesus was speaking to the Sadducees - the Jewish sect that rejected the resurrection of the righteous. It that particular passage, Jesus was correcting their attempt to trick him by asking about marriage in the afterlife (something they didn't believe existed and I don't doubt they had used successfully against their rivals the Pharisees):

    Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. “Teacher,” they said, “Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were seven brothers. The first one married and died without leaving any children. The second one married the widow, but he also died, leaving no child. It was the same with the third. In fact, none of the seven left any children. Last of all, the woman died too. At the resurrection whose wife will she be, since the seven were married to her?” Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!" (Mark 12:18-27)

So, rather than Jesus somehow okaying praying to the dead, he was instead asserting that ALL are alive TO God - even when they have passed from this life into the next - and there is no "marriage" in heaven.

The Jewish king Saul died because:

    Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the Lord. So the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse. (I Chronicles 10:13-14)

The Prophet Isaiah warned:

    When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa. 8:19-20)

It really doesn't matter what others in the past have done - even those who claim to be Christians - there is not one place in the New Testament that people pray to Mary or saints in the early church. The apostles never wrote of it in the book of Acts or any of the epistles. There is no Old Testament or New Testament teaching of praying to the dead. and while they may be very much alive in heaven the Bible categorizes them as dead because they are no longer with us here on earth after their body is put to the ground.

322 posted on 03/25/2015 5:02:11 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

Please come out of the lie of Protestantism.


323 posted on 03/25/2015 5:40:09 PM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: paladinan
Don’t be a complete, inflammatory jerk, Elsie.

Will it be alright with you if I'm merely an incomplete, smouldering one?

324 posted on 03/25/2015 6:45:51 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: verga
(I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)

Instead of flocking with turkeys?

325 posted on 03/25/2015 6:46:56 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: verga
There is no "lie" that I am IN to come out OF. In fact, I came out of the lie of Roman Catholicism going on forty-six years ago now and God has seen fit to KEEP me from backsliding. Every day that goes by, He continues to assure me of the right decision and helps me to grow in His grace by a life of faith. Maybe you should try it!
326 posted on 03/25/2015 7:50:35 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

There you go...making sense again on the RF.


327 posted on 03/26/2015 2:22:06 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: boatbums; St_Thomas_Aquinas

The “ anti-Catholic” label has been thrown around so much with so little basis as to render it meaningless.

I posted some Tozer threads which in no way referenced Catholicism, and they were keyword spammed with “ Catholicbashing”.

A persecution complex indeed.


328 posted on 03/26/2015 2:25:19 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

The only rationalization is when someone takes the verse out of context and makes it into a command of Jesus, ignoring the context of church disciple.

It is not a blanket coomand of Jesus to demand submission of everyone to Catholicism.


329 posted on 03/26/2015 2:43:57 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: boatbums
The voice you are "hearing" is saying: Did God really say....

I will continue to pray for you, and pity you.

330 posted on 03/26/2015 3:44:27 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: Legatus

:)


331 posted on 03/26/2015 5:42:30 AM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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To: verga
The voice you are "hearing" is saying: Did God really say.... I will continue to pray for you, and pity you.

And how could you possibly know what I'm hearing or thinking? Attempting the parlor trick of mind reading once again? Save your prayers and "pity"...I don't need or want them. They would be better spent on yourself to clear out the cobwebs in your ears and the beams in your eyes.

332 posted on 03/26/2015 11:28:44 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

I see that you do desperately need both the prayers and the pity.


333 posted on 03/26/2015 11:31:49 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: metmom

I can’t see any other legitimate reason.


334 posted on 03/26/2015 11:34:43 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: verga

You “see” nothing of the kind. Stop making it personal for a change and discuss the subject of the thread. This lying in wait for a chance to toss condescending and patronizing “zingers” is unbecoming of one who claims to be a Christian.


335 posted on 03/26/2015 11:38:30 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

As I have said a number of times before there are only two non-Catholics on these threads that are actually Christians. I feel a Novena coming on for you.


336 posted on 03/26/2015 12:08:35 PM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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