Posted on 04/13/2015 7:31:36 AM PDT by Salvation
Monsignor Pope Ping!
The Romanist organization has, like the other “spiritist” organizations, placed a great deal of emphasis on attempting “deep thoughts” about God. Frankly, this is hooey.
First, of all, the Romanist group does not hold a biblical view of its doctrines. As noted around here, it finds itself above all that, able to construct its perspectives from extra-biblical traditions and opinions. If Rome thinks biblical Christians use YOPIOS, they ought to look in the mirror and notice that they don’t connect with ANY interpretation. They just manufacture the junk out of whole cloth.
Second, if they cannot get the basics right, their so-called “deeper” meditations are going off to the Flying Spaghetti Monster or somewhere other than the God of Israel, the God of the Bible. Thus, just as Muslims sincerely believe that they are going to have 72 virgins when that chest pack goes off, RCs are living a delusion of “deeper prayer”. Go read the text...your view is not there.
Third, the biblical writers of the NT, principally Paul, does not spend a great deal of time encouraging “meditation” or “deeper prayer”. Actually, he notes that we don’t really have any idea how to pray correctly...and never will until we are fully redeemed. His encouragement focuses on getting the story straight, something that Rome does not do insofar as it is so deeply committed to its traditions, myths, and fables. Wake up Rome...if Jesus permits. Otherwise, do not be deceived about your “deeper prayer”...the hole is just getting darker.
Later reading.
How is it “hooey” when it happened to and is related by St. Paul?
Oh, please, that is so out of context as to not even be related to the issue. Paul is saying that this happened to him, not that his “meditation” gave him special insight. GO READ THE TEXT...stop spouting the party line and READ THE TEXT, darn it. That is exactly what my post argues...you are so committed to your tradition that you cannot bring yourselves to actually read the text.
**I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. (2 Cor 12:2-4)**
Could St. Paul be talking about himself?
Wwhen I first saw the headline I thought, “Yeah, this works.” But what I was thinking of was our new church with is so spacious.
People no longer reach across the isle to hold hands during the Our Father. More people kneel and pray after Communion rather than sing the hymn, too.
And with a change in musicians, there is no longer clapping after the Recessional as there used to be with the old Music Director and his/her idea of performance rather than worship with the music.
Is it the spaciousness and not feeling so crowded that leads to this extra reverent display?
Of course he is...but it is not because he had "deeper prayer". And, he is no St. He is just a saint, like you or I...if we are among the elect. His remarks are about being caught up by Christ to view what awaits...like Ezekiel had a vision of Israel. But, to connect this with some kind of "meditative state of prayer" is disingenuous. For the OP to imply that Paul being chosen to be an apostle and is taken to heaven is something you or I or some silly monk somewhere could do (because he had too much time on his hands) and we pray ourselves into a "state", is patently absurd.
Have you never seen someone resting in the Spirit when one who is living a life of austerity and prayer lays hands upon them? A person speaking in a private prayer tongue, not the prophetic type intended for another interpreter, speaks, or rather the Spirit through him with the groanings that cannot be expressed in speech. That is between the soul and God. Please don't presume to know the souls of others-that is for Good alone.
Less commotion, more reverence around makes for better conditions for God working within. I like to sit up front, because it’s very distracting for me and hard to focus otherwise.
I was criticized recently for reading/meditating upon the Psalms as prayer, because they were not my words. Then we get criticized for not reading the Bible.
Thus, just as Muslims sincerely believe that they are going to have 72 virgins when that chest pack goes off, RCs are living a delusion of “deeper prayer”. Go read the text...your view is not there.
You may think we're "delusional" but no comparisons to Muslim extremists, thank you!
Then how can you know that...”One who is not Catholic cannot claim to know...”? If you are a Catholic, you know only Catholic experiences. I am arguing that the Bible does not support your claims of “deeper experiences” with God. Sorry, it’s not there. Until you are a Biblicist and not a Catholic, you cannot claim to know what is in the Bible.
Also, you may wish to read my posts... I did not say “Muslim extremists”. I said Muslims sincerely misunderstand, but passionately believe, that they are going to heaven and will have 72 virgins. Nearly all Muslims believe that if they die for Islam, this is available, not just the “fundamentalists”. Such a belief is not supported by the Bible, thus it is mistaken and untrue. I am saying that Catholics may believe one thing, deeply, sincerely, but if it is not supported by the Bible, they are mistaken. Evangelicals may believe in “free will”, but since it is not supported by Scripture, it is untrue.
I laughed at a friend who has a beauty shop. She told me she has to sit in the first or second row so that she is not distracted by looking a people’s hair and thinking what she might do with them in her shop. LOL!
So to concentrate on the Mass — front rows.
You assume that Catholics don't know the Bible. For us, the Church has covered the translation and interpretation. But it also teaches that the Word of God which is the Bible is living, dynamic. Each day, when Salvation posts for us, we receive readings arranged over a three-year cycle that are read at Mass and on Good Friday (the only day there is no Mass). We're not taught by memorization, but by application. Over the years of my life, in several versions, I have read the Bible. I'm older now, and my syntax and recall are not what they used to be. But I still have it in my heart. And when I'm frightened, or upset, poor just need a verbal"hug" from a loving Father, I hold that Bible close to my heart, then read where He chooses to send me. Sometimes I choose my own, like Job 37, or the Psalms, poor the Last Discourse on John's Gospel. We do love the Bible, contrary to popular rumor. My Nanu (grandfather in Italian) read it out loud to my Nani who was illiterate but wise. My Mom was the youngest of -are you sitting down? 16. She got to hear, then did the same for me when I was little. She survived cancer when I was a baby, and prayer and God were part of our lives. Experiencing prayer? What of a 3 year old who, when in church with her parents prayed, "Now I lay me down to sleep..."- it was the only prayer I knew, but it came from the heart of an innocent child praying to God. I don't remember that in particular, but as I grew older, Jesus became my companion- I never saw or heard him, but I knew He was there. Not an imaginary friend, I had one of those, as most only children do- but Jesus. And I spoke to Him and knew He was with me then, too. I loved hearing the Scripture- and looked at the pictures in my Mother's Bible that she used to read to me from, and explain then read.
I hope I haven't been boring, sorry to go on so, but I grew up learning the meaning of Scripture- not much memorization- but how to live and why. Still learning. Hope I never stop. Even when I was away from the Church for awhile, I still read the Bible.
I pray that, if you haven't, you do experience the kind of prayer spoken of. It is a gift from God, and something to hold on to when life runs you down and you hit a bit of a bump on your prayer life.
God bless you, D! May you always stay close to Him, in good times and bad...
Really? You place yourself on the same level as St Paul, who had the great privilege of hearing directly from Our Lord and then evangelizing for Him so well on person and in writing that his words have been recognized as divinely inspired? I'm not sure I've ever encountered such monumental egotism. When were your writings incorporated into the New Testament?
God bless you too, my FRiend. As a believer in Jesus, I am not against “meditative prayer”. I am against the excessive claim that the meditations of people are ways of drawing nearer to God when much of what they believe is incorrect about God and the Scriptures.
And, I am not speaking of “memorizing” the Bible; I am speaking about getting the story of the gospel (the incredibly good news of Jesus) straight...understanding correctly the “Word of God”. For example, if a man says, “Hey, it says right here, ‘if your eye offends, tear it out.’ so we need to start tearing out our eyes.” would you respond, “Okay.”?
I would say, “Sorry, you have misunderstood the text.” How can I say that if, after all, it was Jesus who said this? Because, if you keep reading the rest of the NT, you will see there is something going on here that requires getting the story straight. A bigger picture than what Jesus was teaching the Jews. Many Catholics avoid dealing with this hermeneutical requirement...that is, “How do we understand what the story is?”
Instead, many Catholics (and many evangelicals) simply take much of the Bible in snippets, like bumper-sticker sayings. “Love one another” “Blessed are the meek” “The Golden rule”. Etc. But, each of these has a context, and they mean something quite different when taken IN context than they do as a “saying”. But, the sayings live on.
Why? Because it is difficult to understand the story of the Bible taken as a whole...and many Catholics have yielded their responsibility to read for themselves, and granted Rome the right to tell them what that means. Where did Rome get this right? It told them it had the right!
Instead of reading the Book until the story line takes shape, they read the “required” texts (for a homily, or holy day, etc.) and allow the man in front to tell them the meaning of this “saying”. They do not notice that the bigger message does not mean that, at all, when read in context of the entire letter/book.
This very thing happened here on this thread. The quote from Paul had nothing to do with “meditative prayer”. But, the writer used the snippet to “prove” that Paul supported this. Nothing could be further from the truth. Whether Paul supported it or not could absolutely NOT be found in this quote. Paul is explaining that he is qualified to speak as an apostle because something happened to him.
Now, notice how this kind of misuse lowers the reliability of other things the writer might say! As I wrote, if you read the entire letters of Paul, they are not necessarily encouraging some kind of “meditative state”. Rather, he routinely encourages the Gentile readers after the cross (that’s you and me) to UNDERSTAND THE STORY. If you want proof of this, I’ll provide...but it takes reading big stretches of his letters and paying close attention to the flow of the argument.
That being said, I still believe there are many “Catholics” who are being rescued by Jesus. Not due to Rome; but in spite of Rome.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.