Posted on 06/01/2015 11:54:08 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
So yes, I DO think these verses mean what I said originally:
--->if one in continuously (constantly) committing a sin they claim to have repented from then they were never saved in the first place.
Logically, that’s a self-fulfilling prophesy.
They could have been Saved and elected to give up their Salvation. Paul talks about this quit a bit where Christians were forsaking the faith.
Well, this Baptist believes that is exactly what Jesus was talking about in the "Judge not..." passage of Mat. 7. Whether one was never saved is God's business not mine and whether he has committed a sin so much as to show they were never saved is God's business. Worry about your own soul in this regard. When it comes to your brother just forgive (7x70) and let God take care of the rest. This does not obviate the need for Church discipline for those engaging in open sin, nor does it prevent the church from taking back such a one who has repented and left that sin. Again, why would God save someone he knew he would have to unsave a few years down the line? Or do you not believe God is all knowing?
Yet John says when one leaves the faith they were never of the faith in the first place or they would not have left it.
How can you leave the faith if you were never in it?
My point (and I believe John's also) exactly. If one leaves a faith they professed to have then that means they never really had it.
In order to leave, you have to first be in it. You can’t leave a place you were never in. You can’t leave Cleveland if you were never in Cleveland.
But you can claim to be in faith without really being in the faith. That is John’s entire point. God knew from the moment of creation what your and my ultimate fate would be. Why would God save someone he knows he will have to unsave later, maybe back and forth several times? That would be an imperfect God and I don’t believe in an imperfect God.
God doesn’t “unsave” them. They leave the faith. They were in the faith and then elected to leave it. In the early days of the church, many times they returned to Judaism.
In 1 Cor, Paul orders the church to turn a sinner “over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh” so that his spirit might be Saved.
Judas walked with Jesus as a Disciple and still fell. The idea that Jesus chose him in order to see to his ultimate destruction sounds disingenuous.
Free Will means that we can leave or stay.
There's where we disagree. I believe God alone dictates salvation by whatever criteria his good will chooses. "I will have mercy on who I choose to have mercy" We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.
OK but you seem to be implying that we don’t get a choice in the matter which goes against centuries of church doctrine.
People have been debating for centuries how to reconcile the doctrines of predestination and moral accountability, both of which are taught in scripture. I acknowledge that honest arguments can be raised for each side. I fall on the predestination side and follow the Calvinistic view of soteriology. I have many close friends who take the Arminian and/or Catholic position and we can still break bread and remain friends. I would sincerely hope the same is possible with you, brother.
I’ve been both but lean more towards the Free Will side now. God “repenting that He made man” in the days of Noah helped push me in that direction. Why would God do that if He knew what was going to happen? You can add in all the times God changed His mind.
The basis of Reformed Predestination is that God doesn’t have Free Will. What He is going to do has already been predetermined and cannot be stopped even by Him because of Foreknowledge.
It’s not a hill to die on but just a different direction in thinking.
So when Josh committed his sin under the prism of Free Will, God wasn’t in it. He didn’t cause it or allow it. It was a result of the inherent Depravity of Man that will ultimately require a penalty be paid when we will be called to give an account for what we have done in our life. He is guilty just like we are guilty.
I’ve been a computer programmer for 35 years. Predestination and Foreknowledge make perfect sense to me, which is why I eschew them. It makes me too comfortable.
While Jesus said “Judge not lest ye be judged,” He also said for Christians to “Judge righteous judgment.”
It comes down to this: Calvinists and Baptists think they can sin just about as much as they want to while telling others and themselves “I really did some really, really bad things but I was still saved - just out of fellowship with Jesus.”
OSAS is an excuse for sinning just about as much as you want to, no matter how bad the sin is, or at least don’t do too much (or at least don’t get caught) because the leadership in the church might say you were never saved to begin with (falsely saved). But rarely do they ever pull out the “You were falsely saved” and affix it to anyone as I know quite a few Baptists and they just won’t do this to another Baptist.
Now, if someone who was supposedly saved and gets caught in homosexuality, then they will get the “falsely saved” label. But let some Baptist commit adultery 3-4 times over a few year period and other Baptists will say that person was in and out of fellowship with Jesus -— but still saved.
That verse says nothing of they where never saved in the first place.
Romans 10: 26-31
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
These scriptures address Christians, basically warning against sinning willfully, and that the judgment for Christians who fall away will be worse.
The only unforgivable sin is "blasphemy" of the Holy Spirit, which I interpret as rejecting the calling of the Holy Spirit to dwell in them.
Someone claiming to be a Christian that isn't repented, is very likely not saved. Someone that struggles with sin but knows the sin is wrong may still be saved.
No, those scriptures are merely saying those individuals cannot use ignorance as an excuse. This is why Paul says, "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in Him whom they have no heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?"
Would like to hear what you believe the following means:
Romans 6:1-8
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. And this we will do, if God permits.
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
The same point Father Abraham made to the rich man in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man wanted a miracle shown to his relatives so they would repent. Abraham said if they won’t listen to the prophets (though they may claim to) then they won’t ever believe and repent, not even if shown a miracle. Thus, if one has received the good news (ie. tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit) and still doesn’t believe and repent though they may have claimed to (ie. fallen away from it) then they will never believe and come to repentance and will never be saved. Thus, their fate will be the same as those in Mat. 7:21-23 who falsely claim to have believed and come to repentance. (”I NEVER knew ye”)
It means if they don’t repent that they are close to being cursed and will be burned.
1 Co 3: 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
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