Posted on 06/27/2015 9:07:31 AM PDT by Salvation
Slaves in the Roman Empire had legal rights never considered for American chattel slaves. The exercise of those rights were often usurped, but a number made significant advances in Roman society. Many (barbarian) slaves were treated more harshly than American slaves, but many (civilized) slaves were professionals and accorded positions commensurate with their abilities.
Slaves (and sons, who were also not considered citizens) were the only persons allowed to legally exercise financial transactions (under a peculium), granting some the ability to raise funds for their freedom. They also had other numerous statutory rights, though they had little recourse from cruelty or abuse.
[[A free Roman could sell himself into slavery but the price for such a slave was so high that the debt would have to be enormous.]]
Says who? How ‘enormous’? And let’s not forget, we’re talking two completely different cultures here- one a secular one with no morals or very little anyways- and one with a completely different set of morality- I’m sure sometimes debts were ‘enormous’ and I’m sure that even when there wasn’t enormous debt, some contracts included future family members as well- times were very tough back then- let’s not forget, Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of soup because he was so desperate- And don’t forget- bondservants WERE treated so fairly by God’s peop-el most of the time (I’m sure there were ‘bad eggs’ just as there are in any society or group- but these people WERE judged by God) that some opted to remain even when given the choice of freedom, and because things were good, it is not unreasonable to think that deals were made between bondservants and ‘owners’ for future family members to remain in servanthood
I’m not saying that the Hebrew code for owning slaves wasn’t better (or worse) than some others - I’m saying that Scripture approves of slavery because it does.
For all you write about some people forced to sell themselves into bondage for economic reasons or the code that allowed Israelites to buy freedom after seven years of bandage, you are conveniently overlooking the fact that many slaves don’t fall into those categories.
It’s quite clear that Scripture allows people to buy other people and hold them as property for life and even to pass them down to their children. That’s slavery whether you like it or not.
Yes, some did but countless millions died on galleys, in mines, building roads, cutting down forests, breaking rocks etc, etc with no rights other than being worked to death.
That’s slavery whether you like it or not.
Being a bondservant in biblical times- was a much different thing than secular slavery was whether you like it or not- You can argue whether you think it is moral or not- but the fact was that being a bondservant was nowhwere near as immoral as the clearly immoral secular slavery was
Bullshit. Scripture doesn't approve of slavery. It merely tolerates it as a human institution and sets guidelines for its practice.
That's a far cry from "approving".
Additionally, the US Constitution, which had to do legal and moral somersaults to tolerate the institution of slavery in the first place, now bans slavery outright. So that's the end of that debate in this country.
[[Yes, some did but countless millions died on galleys, in mines, building roads, cutting down forests, breaking rocks etc, etc with no rights other than being worked to death.]]
Can you give examples of Hebrew Bondservants dying under such conditions? Or are you lumping all Hebrew Bondservants in with slaves ruled by immoral brutal regimes such as Egypt, rome etc?
Check the post I was replying to. Context is always useful.
Fair point. I’ll rephrase it. Scripture finds slavery to be tolerable.
exactly, and just a further note on the verse 3x 20 21- which makes it seem like a servant that dies days after a beating is fine and not punishable- it is simply talking about the fact that a person who has a bondservant would not intentionally beat such a person so severely that they die days later because that would be a loss to the bondholder- and so it can be concluded it was unintentional and therefore not punishable by taking the life of the bondholder-
When you say ‘secular’ slavery. What are you referring to?
slavery in societies that don’t recognize God or Recognize God as their God- Slavery in secular societies
To a large extent in the Roman empire was what you did with conquered people rather than killing them.
In the US, the natives did not make particularly good slaves. As a result, they were mostly exterminated.
Should have read “slavery was what you did with conquered people”.
Every instance of slavery throughout the world and throughout history is portrayed as not “real slavery” like that in America.
Slavery in ancient times had no racial component, and in that sense was much less harsh. Anybody could wind up as a slave. The author is quite simply wrong about how slaves were made.
Many were captured and sold by pirates. When a city or country was conquered, not just the soldiers but the women and children were sold. J. Caesar conquered Gaul over a 10-year period. It’s estimated that of the 3M population, he killed 1M and sold another 1M into slavery, the proceeds of which went into his own pocket.
Slaves were also born into slavery, slave raids were launched outside Roman territory, and slaves were imported from foreign sources. Apparently there were people who made a living “rescuing” exposed babies and raising them for sale, often castrating them for sexual or harem use, or mutilating them to be beggars.
Slaves under the Roman Empire had exactly zero rights. Owners could, and often did, execute or torture their slaves to death. Augustus was revolted by one senator who tossed a slave alive into a lamprey pond for dropping a vase. But he didn’t challenge the senator’s right to murder his slave in this way.
Slaves, male and female, were subject to the most appalling and casual sexual abuse, often in public view, and nobody batted an eye.
If a Roman citizen was murdered, all his slaves were subject to automatic execution for not preventing it. In one case at Pompeii more than 200 slaves, including children and babies, were executed in this way.
OTOH, slaves could be freed and often became rich and powerful as freedmen. The freedman of a Roman citizen automatically became a citizen himself. Their sons and grandsons could rise to the peak of power.
So Roman was much worse than American slavery in some ways, and much better in others. It is noteworthy that American slave society was the only one of which I’m aware where the slaves not only maintained their numbers but had a population explosion fully matching that of white Americans. All other slave societies had to be constantly replenished with imports. This hardly implies that American slavery was uniquely harsh or dispiriting.
[[The author is quite simply wrong about how slaves were made.]]
the author I believe is talking bout the servants of Hebrews- not about slave In secular societies
Regardless of the movie Ben Hur, there were few if any ancient galley slaves. Those were a consequence of ships fighting with cannon.
In ancient times sea battles were generally settled by boarding actions. In such circumstances it was obviously idiotic to have 3/4 or more of your crew not only unable to fight but a potential fifth column at your back. So rowers were combatants and free men.
When gunpowder came around, rowers were demoted to being just the engine. Christians used Muslim and criminal slaves, and Muslims used Christian and criminal slaves.
Yes, the vast majority, no doubt—just as serfs in Europe, peasants in Russia and China and conquered peoples throughout history and continuing even today.
While American slaveholders twisted scripture to support their stance, they did so in obstinate defiance of Scripture. The Old Testament and Jewish law charged the owner with taking care of slaves. The New Testament declared slaves and masters equal before God. These were radical departures from the cultural norms.
Doesn’t the old testament say that a man could sell his daughter into slavery?
Slavery in biblical times tended to be an alternative to the more modern tendency of incarcerating people for long periods in prisons. People were generally enslaved for three reasons: They had debts they could not pay, they were guilty of certain crimes, or they had been soldiers who had waged war against the Roman Empire.
He's obviously here talking about Roman slavery, and he's quite simply inaccurate, as I discussed in my previous post.
He may be conflating pagan and Hebrew slavery. Hard to tell, it's so poorly written.
But, sadly, the Bible, in the OT especially but also in the NT, takes slavery for granted as a fact of life, like water being wet.
The OT has no limitations on slavery except for fellow Hebrews. I notice some have mentioned that some slaves, when their terms was up, would choose to be slaves forever, as a way of showing what a pleasant way of life it was.
The facts, if you read the passage carefully, are a little more disturbing. A master "gives" a male slaves a wife (note that she doesn't seem to be asked whether she wants to be someone's wife). If when his term is up, he chooses to leave, the master keeps his wife and kids. So he has a choice between his family and freedom. And the Bible takes that for granted.
Also, women weren't freed after seven years, and fathers could and did sell their daughters into sex slavery. Exodus 21.
The Bible's laws of war with regard to slaves are very similar indeed to those of the Koran. For instance, when a woman is captured and her entire family killed, she is courteously to be granted a full month to mourn them before being raped by her captor. I'm sure the girls captured by ISIS would appreciate a month's respite, but it hardly looks nice by modern standards. Deuteronomy 21.
It should also be noted that the Bible itself is very clear that the Hebrews seldom really followed or enforced the biblical laws, so it doesn't seem reasonable to assume they were always implemented as described.
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