Posted on 07/08/2015 8:54:49 PM PDT by Morgana
Was Pope Alexander VI in good standing with the apostolic succession?
There is NO apostolic succession.
What I HAVE read (so far) aligns with MY understanding of scripture
Their Statement Of Faith is quite in depth.
I use them myself, from time to time.
Marxist, “New Old Order” - 07/07/2015, Gia worshiping Pope Francis is the end of the line for the Roman Catholic Church.
He’ll next be commissioning the design of the Mark of the Beast.
Always wondered how these papal men piously playing God’s premier emissary on earth could look in the mirror daily and live with themselves, reconciling abuses of power attrocities, concealing, aiding and abetting pedophile priests for decades. Millstone around the neck, suffer the children. By their deeds and fruit ye shall know if they are mine.
Today I ordered “Catechism of the Catholic Church”, 2002. I want to know exactly what the Catholic Church believes. Individual Catholics say this and some say that and another says something else. When I get that book, I’ll know what the actual Catholic Church believes in a number of areas.
Recommended reading for anyone looking for a compendium of resources showing that papal succession is mostly wishful thinking:
http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php/57633-Literature-on-the-early-papacy-and-succession-lists
It didn’t happen, not during the first two centuries. The brave list you have presented, Salvation, is largely a fabrication until the late 200’s. Here’s a great source mentioned in the above link:
http://reformation500.blogspot.com/2008/08/review-of-from-paul-to-valentinus.html
I own the book. It’s an insurmountable mountain of evidence that the early church in Rome was a loose network with no single bishop until late in the Second Century. I ask the reader of Salvation’s list of names to notice the complete lack of verification via primary sources. There is a reason for this. Apparently, during the heresy wars erupting during that late 200’s period, it popped into someone’s head they could get a leg up on the competition if they could claim historical continuity through a series of Roman bishops. So they built lists, from guesswork and memory, unverified and unverifiable. That fiction stood for a long time, but in recent years Lampe and others have come along and shown there just wasn’t anything like what the lists said during that early period. So Roman scholarship is in retreat on this. As it should be, given the profound importance of being honest.
Peace,
SR
“The Church’s relationship with Muslims. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 841, quoting Lumen Gentium 16.)”
Yeah that just great catholics. Im so glad I dont indulge your pagan symbols, statues and practices. Im Baptist, and will be till I die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxfmedgtKpk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erlIoFmz_AU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGuBY3dhhfo
Ignorant statements from deceived supposed believers. Jesus was not referring to Peter himself when He said “upon this rock I will build my church” but the revelation that Jesus is the Son of God. Study the verses in Greek.
The catholic church also supported Constintines change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.
The catholic church also said it has the power to change scripture “even the precepts of Christ”.
The catholic church has added unto scripture just as the Pharisees did. This is expressely forbidden in the O.T. and the N.T.
Where is the scripture that describes the construction of the bead necklace used for vain and repetitious prayers?
Where is the scripture reference for indulgences?
How catholics can remain in this thinly disguised cult is beyond me.
Come out of her o my people.
Perhaps it is you who should “Read your Bible!!!,”(and the early fathers and doctors of the Church. The Church is visible and ONE.
Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.
Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, “I will build my ‘Church’ (not churches).” There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.
Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because “binding and loosing” are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.
John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.
John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus’ oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.
John 17:9-26 - Jesus’ prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.
John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.
Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.
Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.
1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean “invisible” unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.
Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.
Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.
Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.
Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.
Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.
Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different “Protest”ant denominations?
Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.
1 Tim. 6:4 - Paul warns about those who seek controversy and disputes about words. There must be a universal authority to appeal to who can trace its authority back to Christ.
2 Tim. 2:14 - do not dispute about words which only ruin the hearers. Two-thousand years of doctrinal unity is a sign of Christ’s Church.
2 Tim. 4:3 - this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God. It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose. We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ’s teachings which He gives us through His Church.
Rev. 7:9 - the heavenly kingdom is filled with those from every nation and from all tribes, peoples and tongues. This is “catholic,” which means universal.
1 Peter 3:8 - Peter charges us to have unity of spirit. This is impossible unless there is a central teaching authority given to us by God.
Gen. 12:2-3 - since Abram God said all the families of the earth shall be blessed. This family unity is fulfilled only in the Catholic Church.
Dan. 7:14 - Daniel prophesies that all peoples, nations and languages shall serve His kingdom. Again, this catholicity is only found in the Catholic Church.
1 Cor. 14:33 - God cannot be the author of the Protestant confusion. Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church claims and proves to be Christ’s Church.
“Petilianus said: ‘If you declare that yon hold the Catholic Church, the word ‘catholic’ is merely the Greek equivalent for entire or whole. But it is clear that you are not in the whole, because you have gone aside into the part.’ Augustine answered: I too indeed have attained to a very slight knowledge of the Greek language, scarcely to be called knowledge at all, yet I am not shameless in saying that I know that means not ‘one,’ but ‘the whole;’ and that means “according to the whole:” whence the Catholic Church received its name, according to the saying of the Lord, ‘It is not for you to know the times, which the Father hath put in His own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in Judea, and in Samaria, and even in the whole earth.’ Here you have the origin of the name ‘Catholic.’ Augustine, Answer to Letters of Petilian, 2:38 [90] (A.D. 400).
“It is an easier thing for the sun to be quenched, than for the church to be made invisible.” John Chrysostom, In illud: vidi Dom. (ante A.D. 407).
“For the church is in lofty and conspicuous, and well known to all men in every place. It is also lofty in another sense; for her thoughts have nothing earthly, but she is above all that is earthly, and with the eyes of the understanding, looks upon, as far as it is possible, the glory of God, and glories in doctrines truly exalted, concerning God ... Wherefore, with justice may the house of God be called a mountain (known) by the understanding, and it is perfectly visible, as being raised upon the hills; and one may say of it, and with great cause, what as a notable illustration was uttered by the mouth of the Saviour: ‘A city placed upon a hill cannot be hidden’” Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on Isaias, (ante A.D. 429).
PS We also believe that our baptized Protestant, Evangelical brothers and sisters and others who accept Christ as Savior ARE part of the Church, though they are separated for various reasons.
Thou art Peter; and upon this Rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.”
(Matthew 16:16-18). In John 1:42, Jesus changes the Apostle Simon’s name to Cephas, or Peter, a name which means “Rock”.
Jesus himself made Peter his earthly successor as the leader of His newly created Church and gave authority to apostles to rule and teach in the church( Matthew 28:20).
In Acts 15:7, Peter said, “Brethren, you know that in early days GOD made choice among us, that through ‘MY MOUTH’ the Gentiles should hear the word of the Gospel and believe.”
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I am with you on all of the above except the successor part, but it seems the Catholic Church has doctrine which Peter or the other chosen apostles never said anything about.
Paul is the only one who said anything about the sacrament, he is also the one who seems to have brought in the title of fathers.
If in fact Peter brought in these doctrines why don`t you give scripture of the fact?
I have never read anything from Peter concerning his authority which would contradict what Jesus said in Mathew 20
24 And when the ten heard it, they were greatly displeased with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you;
Yes Peter had the authority through the holy spirit but you never heard him talking of his authority which makes it very doubtful in my mind if the catholic Church is based on Peters doctrine at all.
The question is not if Peter was given the keys to the kingdom, Jesus clearly makes that statement of fact, if he was also including the apostles or not is room for some argument.
Up on this rock I will build my Church? again we might say that Peters faith was the rock, that being the case why didn’t he name all of the apostles rock? is Peter the only one who had faith?
I have no argument about Peter being the rock or that he has the keys to the kingdom if I ever reach those pearly gates what ever they are, Peter is the first one I expect to see.
I am just convinced that a lot of the Catholic Church doctrine came not from peter.
Much appreciate the disclaimer. I'm not sure that every Catholic on FR would agree that we Protestants who accept Christ as Savior are part of the Church, however.
If one who claims to be Catholic says such a thing, he or she is not following the Magisterial Teaching of the Church. There are plenty of ignorant Catholics and there are plenty of non-practicing Catholics. This is one of the reasons why the emphasis on the ‘New Evangelization’ in the Church is aimed at those in the pews first!
I have many good Evangelical and Protestant friends who know more about how to live as a Christian than some Catholics. I also know many Catholics who know more about that than several non-Catholics. That is the truth. May our Risen Lord further unite us and assist us in pursuing HIS heart above all else! ;-) Maranatha....
But Morgana's article argues that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus of Nazareth and is the first and only true Christian church:
"Catholic Church (sic) traces its origins back to Jesus Christ himself. Jesus Christ established a church nearly two thousand years ago. (1 Timothy 3:15)"
But doesn't Peter in his own words (1 Peter 2) tells us that Jesus is the rock? Seems he understood what Jesus said. Peter isn't taking on this title which others later try to place on him.
Peter also says that we all are part of the royal priesthood, not just a bunch of guys wearing robes.
I'm becoming more convinced all the time that there is no uniquely Catholic doctrine which can be reasonably supported from the teaching of Scripture. That is why Catholic arguments have to rely so heavily on the extra-Biblical "sacred tradition."
But doesn’t Peter in his own words (1 Peter 2) tells us that Jesus is the rock?
And while I have always believed that the rock was his faith then why didn’t he also call the other apostles rock as they also had faith, just a question in my mind that I have to contend with.
I’m becoming more convinced all the time that there is no uniquely Catholic doctrine which can be reasonably supported from the teaching of Scripture.>>>>>>>
The only scripture I can find which backs up Catholic doctrine is in 1 Corinthians 4 and it did not come from Peter.
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
Paul is telling them he is their father through the gospel.
I have no doubt at all this is where the Catholic Church comes up with the title of fathers.
I am not trying to pick on Paul but it is contrary to what Jesus said.
Matthew 23
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Peter also says that we all are part of the royal priesthood, not just a bunch of guys wearing robes.>>>>>>>
That is true and Jesus also had a lot to say about those who wore the fancy robes and sit in the upper seats.
Mathew 23
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
It’s free online.
SOURCE??
Rome is a fictional cult like church with started in Rome..not by Christ.. not by Peter ...but by Constantine
Peter was the apostle to the Jews.. not the gentiles, that was Paul's ministry.. so seeing Paul was a Roman citizen.. and HE was the apostles to the gentiles.. if there was going to be a "pope" in Rome.. seems like it would have been Paul ...HUH??
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