“Done Roman” and Coming Home to the Catholic Church

Aletelia ^ | October 26, 2015 | FR DWIGHT LONGENECKER

[ealgeone]

And please....no appeal to the ECFs....they're in disagreement over this also.

Good thing we have Christ as the cornerstone (Acts 4:11; Matt 21:42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17; Eph 2:20; 1 Cor 3:11; 1 Peter 2:6-7; Is 28:16; Zech 10:4; Ps 118:22) upon which the church is built.

And not a sinful man in need of salvation as was Peter.

Even Peter recognized Christ as the cornerstone.

Catholics would do well to learn from him.

[Springfield Reformer]

Sorry AF, completely bogus and misleading use of the Greek. Kata is one of those multi-purpose prepositions that shows up everywhere and has a multitude of possible senses. Here, it is simply describing a region. It’s not a label for the ecclesia at all. Luke is talking about the ecclesia being at peace. The final alpha of Kata is dropped, letting it flow right into “holos,” which is the adjective “all” or “whole,” which is modifying “Judea,” because of the genitive. He’s saying that in the whole region of Judea, the ecclesia was at peace. That’s it.

What this sort of abuse of Scripture reminds me is Bible codes. If you look hard enough, you can find almost any combination of words, letters, what have you, that, if you totally abandon context, can be made to say virtually anything your heart desires. That is an extremely dangerous game when it comes to the word of God, who hides His treasures from the wise, and reveals them unto babies. So be it.

Peace,

SR

[ealgeone]

Further, ekklesia is never defined as the roman catholic church.

It is defined as the body of Christian believers. The ones who are called out from the world and to God (HELPS Word-studies).

We do not see evidence of the roman catholic church in the NT due to none of the following present:

papacy

worship of mary

statues of mary

prayers to mary

indulgences for sell, or indulgences

a priesthood

ongoing sacrifice of Christ

etc

etc

etc

[ealgeone]

It’s cute when they try to use the Greek.

[Mark17]

Just because you join a church doesn't mean you are a follower of Christ.

You are correct sir. There are probably millions of lost, Hell bound sinners, in all denominations throughout the world. They will be in for a rude awakening.

[Mark17]

Hey bro. 😇

[af_vet_1981]

Sorry AF, completely bogus and misleading use of the Greek. Kata

Do you mean, rather like completely bogus and misleading use of the Greek by using Kata instead of Katha, and of course not showing the two words together for the first and only use in the scriptures, Kath'Holes ,
which is the origin of the word catholic ? The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal"[1][2]) comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and ὅλος meaning "whole".[3][4]

[af_vet_1981]

What this sort of abuse of Scripture reminds me is Bible codes. If you look hard enough, you can find almost any combination of words, letters, what have you, that, if you totally abandon context, can be made to say virtually anything your heart desires.

Carnal men "re-forming" Christianity in their own image and claiming God's authority
1. Sola Fide
2. Sola Scriptura

[Georgia Girl 2]

“Just because you join a church does not mean you are a follower of Christ”

So true. Even the Church of What’s Happening Now probably has a few members that are just there for the Wed night pot luck and the snake handling. :-)

[af_vet_1981]

Here, it is simply describing a region. It’s not a label for the ecclesia at all. Luke is talking about the ecclesia being at peace.

Or would it be ignoring the context, because it is catholic, that the churches throughout all Judea, and the Galil, and Shomron, we're multiplied, being edified. walking in the fear of the LORD and the comfort of the Holy Ghost; one holy catholic apostolic church about to burst out into the whole known world ?

[ealgeone]

Sad, but true.

[ealgeone]

Now there wouldn’t be any catholic editing on that webpage would there?? Consider the source.

[Springfield Reformer]

No AF, the context supports the simple reading of Luke saying the assemblies (plural) in all of Judea (and yes the other regions) were at peace, and growing. The genitive points to what was happening in the region. The “all” is geographic. Luke was locating the assemblies, not labeling them.

But whatever. The remainder of your quote is an absolute thrashing of the text. Unrecognizable. I don’t know where you got it from, but whoever produced it has either no knowledge of or no respect for basic principles of Greek translation or the ordinary rules of context.

For one thing, one would hope even a first semester Greek newbe would know that kata becomes kath when placed in front of a vowel. It’s the same word. I don’t know why I let it shock me, but it does. Over and over I see these same errors made again and a gain. In Greek, a primitive can be modified in form by all sorts of rules, and still be the same basic word, where by convention it has some family of meanings derived by context.

And virtually every property of the assemblies mentioned in this passage or any other New Testament passage can be applied to any Baptist church. Not to leave out the other denominations, but I could claim on the same premise you are using that the first use of Baptist is John the Baptist, thereby proving Baptists to be the authentic, true original church.

Of course, such an argument would be poppycock. Just like yours is. For the same reason. These words and word combinations have easily discerned semantic and contextual meanings. John was not called a Baptist in honor of a denomination, and Luke was talking about peace and growth for the assemblies in the whole of particular regions. That’s it. There’s no more gas in that tank. The rest, that garbled, unbiblical mess you quoted me, is pure magical thinking. It’s what some perhaps would like it to mean. Nobody with an ounce of sense is going to buy it.

Peace,

SR

[Springfield Reformer]

It’s cute when they try to use the Greek.

It would be cute if it weren't so tragic. There are real consequences to such violent twistings of Scripture. 

Peace,

SR

[Mark17]

Sad, but true

I know this may be a bit off topic, but since GG mentioned it, even if it was mentioned in a little joke. This is what I think on it. Correct me if I am wrong, however, but verses 9-20 in the Gospel of Mark, do not appear in two trusted early manuscripts. My opinion would be, it is very dangerous to establish any serious doctrine using those questionable verses. In other words, don't take up poisonous snakes, and don't drink any poison. It could be fatal.

[af_vet_1981]

For one thing, one would hope even a first semester Greek newbe would know that kata becomes kath when placed in front of a vowel. It’s the same word. I don’t know why I let it shock me, but it does. Over and over I see these same errors made again and a gain. In Greek, a primitive can be modified in form by all sorts of rules, and still be the same basic word, where by convention it has some family of meanings derived by context.

And virtually every property of the assemblies mentioned in this passage or any other New Testament passage can be applied to any Baptist church. Not to leave out the other denominations, but I could claim on the same premise you are using that the first use of Baptist is John the Baptist, thereby proving Baptists to be the authentic, true original church.

Did you forget how the Pharisees mocked the disciples from Galilee for their language, or lack thereof ? How exactly did that profit them ? Since you pride yourself in Greek, can you carry on a conversation in Greek today or would the Athenians also mock (well, they might mock any American) ?

I concede Kath is derived from Kata, yet you deviated from the scriptures to cloud the grammatical point, while I clearly showed the Textus Receptus with the theta.

The Kath'Holes construct from two words is the first mention of the origin of the word catholic in the scriptures. That is what the word catholic means. The shock of seeing it in the scriptures must be less than that of the Pharisees having their superior knowledge of Hebrew and the Tenach challenged by the grammatically incorrect.

I see you now admitted church(es) in the text, which you disparaged. The churches throughout all Judea and the Galil and Shomron were one, were holy, were catholic, and were apostolic.

I note you concede Independent Fundamental Baptists are in error about their pedigree. This would be a reason to depart from their assemblies and join the reformation.

[af_vet_1981]

The remainder of your quote is an absolute thrashing of the text. Unrecognizable. I don’t know where you got it from, but whoever produced it has either no knowledge of or no respect for basic principles of Greek translation or the ordinary rules of context.

"Or would it be ignoring the context, because it is catholic, that the churches throughout all Judea, and the Galil, and Shomron, were multiplied, being edified, walking in the fear of the LORD and the comfort of the Holy Ghost; one holy catholic apostolic church about to burst out into the whole known world ? "

Yes,the churches throughout all the lands mentioned where churches existed at that time were one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. The "re-formers" had not yet rebelled.

Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Acts, Catholic chapter nine, Protestant verse thirty one,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James,
bold emphasis mine

[Springfield Reformer]

LOL! Your objections duly noted. Seriously, it is almost impossible to carry on a meaningful discussion in the absence of any recognition of basic Greek language mechanics. I feel sorry you are apparently confused by the ordinary practice of discussing Greek terms in their primitive form. It ordinarily adds clarity to the discussion, and is standard practice you can find in any decent Greek textbook.

But even so, if you go back and reread my posts, carefully, you will see I acknowledged the transformation. But you seem to be worried about how the word is pronounced, moreso than what it means. That’s your choice, but I feel it is ridiculous. Like I said before, word patterns appear in Scripture that have been later co-opted by various groups. Baptist is one. Seventh Day is another. Or the group that says it is Jehovah’s’s Witnesses, based on a passage in the prophets. That’s nothing but cultic self-affirmation. Bible codes. And its a free country. Enjoy your hidden Bible codes. They are not, however, for serious students of Scripture. Sorry.

BTW, the Baptist pedigree is at least as good, and in many respects better, than the alleged Roman pedigree. I concede nothing in that matter.

Peace,

SR

[Dutchboy88]

When you get around to reading it, let us know. Until then, continue to genuflect into the dark.

[af_vet_1981]

BTW, the Baptist pedigree is at least as good, and in many respects better, than the alleged Roman pedigree. I concede nothing in that matter.

If true, it should be elementary to historically trace a world wide association of Baptist assemblies in communion with each other from the time of the Apostles unto this day. Then you could explain why one would leave them to join a faith community traced to the Regormation.