Posted on 12/16/2015 2:42:42 PM PST by NYer
Actually, the equivocation of the explanation is laughable....
In its totality:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that Catholics and Muslims ("together with us") adore "the one, merciful God," -- this doesn't mean that since both Catholics and Muslims are "monotheistic" that there is some sort of explainability behind this. There isn't. 841 PLAINLY STATES that Catholics and Muslims adore the "one merciful God,[.]"
We know that Muslims do not worship God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) -- in fact, they claim that those who worship God as Christians do are heretics. Their god is not triune. They do NOT worship the One True Living God. They worship Satan.
How the RCC can state in CCC 841 that Catholics and Muslims ("together with us") worship (adore) the "one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." is beyond me.
What is correct? Do Catholics worship Allah, or do Muslims worship Jehovah? Has to be one or the other the way 841 is written.
Hoss
Here's a sincere question for uour consideration: Jews do not believe in the Trinity or in the Deity of Christ. Do they worship a false God? Do they worship the same God Catholics do? Do they worship the same God you do?
This is easily the strongest and easiest argument to prove Muhammad was a false prophet to a Muslim. I'm telling you when they hear it they're shocked and do everything they can to deny it.
Muhammad stated that his words for the Qur'an came from both the Jinn(devil) and Gabriel.
“The Jewish god is the same god as the Christian god. They just don’t believe god/Jesus came down.”
It always bugs my wife, but when I point out that our Christian God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - how can that be the same God that the Jews worship? Just semantics I suppose, but....
Allah is right up there with the false gods of Baal and Joseph Smith.
I’m pretty sure that muslims don’t think we all worship the same god. One of the reasons they hate Christians is that we worship multiple gods (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).
Actually, I do. It's plainly started in CCC 841 for anyone to read: " together with us...." Now, the real question is WHO is being worshipped?
You mention "many 'faith communities''" and how they worship "the One God". Really? So those practicing Hinduism are actually worshipping Jehovah, and not Krishna or the other thousands of gods Hindus worship? How about Shintoism? All that dead relative worship is just misunderstood because Shintoists are actually worshipping the One True Living God?
The Red Herring you introduce regarding Judiaism is interesting in that Jews are the only group that might easily fit your scenario. They do worship God, albeit incorrectly. Unless, however, the Lord calls them to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, they too are in the same situation as Muslims, Hindus, Toists, Shintoists, and anyone else who worships a false god.
So, knowing that Christ said, "no one comes to the Father except by me" are you sure you wish to stand in the error you just stated? Muslims deny Christ is the Son of God and part of the Triune Godhead along with denying The Holy Spirit. Do they then really worship the same God as Christians? If they deny Christ (or the Holy Spirit) how can they?
So, by the logic in CCC 841, it states Catholics and Muslims "adore" the "same, merciful God" -- and my question still stands. Do you agree with the Roman Catholic Church, or do you believe in God Almighty, the one true Living God? CCC 841 puts it in a binary form....not me.
Hoss
AMEN.
(As far as I know. Any Hindus in FR, or people who know induism better than I, should jump in and elucidate if I am in error here.)
If Person A, Person B and Person C say in all sincerity, "I worship the One Creator of all things," they are worshipping the same God because there is only One God. It doesn't matter whether they call Him Theos or Manitou. There are multiple languages, but there are not multiple Creators.
Even those who worship this One True and Living Creator God are called to find their salvation in Christ Our Lord and in Him alone. He is the only Savior of the World, and there is no other.
Therefore it is necessary for all the Monotheists (as well as the polytheists) --- Jews ansd Gentiles, everyone --- to turn to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. He is the true Light. See tagline.
Jesus the Christ is the reason!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
According to the New Testament of the Bible
the God Elohim of Israel has a Son
- Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
but Allah has no son according to the Koran
Therefore the Biblical New Testament Christian God of Israel
is not/can not be Allah!
Cordially,
Jesus is spoken in prophecy in the OT and made visable in the NT.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the REAL REASON for this season.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."Per a recent Vatican statement, "Confessing the universal and therefore also exclusive mediation of salvation through Jesus Christ is the core of of (sic) the Christian faith."
I have been told, more than one, that random statements are NOT the same as doctrine. Even when uttered Francis.
Besides, this is still a squishy statement. It doesn't say Muslims are not saved, which the catechism teaches. Instead it tells us what we already know, that Christ is the center And of course, the point in my previous post is that Rome teaches, and you have not shown otherwise, that Allah and The Triune God, are the same. That is simply not true.
Here is what you said: Many "faith communities" worship the One God, the Creator, but they believe different things about Him.
Are not those members of "Faith Communities"? Just going by what you said.
If Person A, Person B and Person C say in all sincerity, "I worship the One Creator of all things," they are worshipping the same God because there is only One God. It doesn't matter whether they call Him Theos or Manitou. There are multiple languages, but there are not multiple Creators.
Uh, no. Sincerity has NOTHING to do with it. I can say I sincerely believe cancer no longer exists. Means nothing as to the actual existence of cancer. Those who sincerely worship anyone/thing other than the One True Living God are NOT worshipping the One True Living God. Were those who worshiped Baal, sincerely believing Baal was the one god, actually worshipping God Almighty? Can you not see the illogic of this statement?
Muslims do NOT worship God Almighty. They do not worship God Almighty in some imperfect way. To say that is to deny the facts of what Muslims themselves state and what the Koran says plainly. Muslims worship a FALSE GOD. They worship Satan, who is the Father of Lies.
CCC 841 cannot be lightly explained away with round-about appeals to a form of Universalism... which is also abhorrent. There is ONE God. Triune. Holy. Eternal. Allah is NOT God. Manitou is NOT God. To claim some equivalence is distasteful at best and blasphemous at its core.
Therefore it is necessary for all the Monotheists (as well as the polytheists) --- Jews ansd Gentiles, everyone --- to turn to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. He is the true Light. See tagline.
True. Very true. But teaching, or worse yet, believing, that Muslims adore or worship the God of Creation is to believe a lie.
See my tagline also.
Hoss
I appreciate the insights and the attempt made to convince we worship the same God. But, I see no samenesses in the article. And quite frankly, the differences discussed are huge.
But one thing is missing, clearly missing in this discussion of fatherly love vs. master, forgiveness. The amazing grace of Christian forgiveness that saves hearts and souls.
Islam holds only the law. Where is their Allah’s grace, mercy and forgiveness?
We only know about God because He has revealed Himself to us. If He wanted to play a cosmic game of hide and seek, we'd know nothing of Him.
God's Word has revealed Himself to us as the Triune God. If a person fails to recognize Father, Son, or Holy Spirit as part of that one God, he or she is worshiping a false God. So yes, I would conclude that we Christians worship a different God than Islam or Judaism.
This should be common ground for Protestants and Catholics. However, Catholics make us Protestants nervous with things like claiming that Christians worship the same God as Islam or Judaism and talk of Co-Redemptrix. It seems that you are losing sight of the Trinity.
Quote-But teaching, or worse yet, believing, that Muslims adore or worship the God of Creation is to believe a lie.
It is interesting to observe our Father’s calendar that He placed in His Word and in His Creation, that Muslims will stumble into His Sabbath on their goddess Fridays about as much as Jews and Christians do with the satry/Saturn days and Sunworshipdays.
Kind of puts all religion in the same babel/confusion group.
But considering the first reformers called the popes ‘antichrist’ and Rome the seat of ‘antichrist’, we should not expect people to know Truth when the world works and worships on a Roman calendar named after a Pope .
In many ways, it is prophetic people claim to worship the Creator and call today Thursday, after a false god, Thor, and not look at it like scripture and His Creation does, as the Creator’s 4th Work Day, the 5th Day of His 10th month- which commemorates the day He made the sun,moon,and stars for signs, seasons(Hebrew Word moed-4150-appointed time, set Feasts, etc) days and years..
It is quite a Babylonian world.. Prophetic.
Maybe too many make and love lies and don’t even know it..
Humbling to see. Especially if one sees how deceived the whole world is. Even and maybe especially, Christianity.
It's very important to understand that Muslims believe they love Allah and in so doing Allah loves them in return.
But the basic foundation of slave and master can be no love. Without the love of Allah they have nothing.
Every time I tell this to a Muslim they're in awww. They recite the Qur'an saying Allah loves them. But their foundation is servitude to Allah.
It's like their first exposure to an error in the Qur'an which is supposed to be perfect.
When they say Allah is merciful. It came from when Muhammad entered Mecca after Hijrah(trip to Yathrib/Madina.) He came back to Mecca and gave the people a choice to be a Muslim or be executed.
It's important to remember they left Mecca and went on hijrah because they felt persecuted from the Meccas. So, Muhammad freed them by becoming Muslims. That is Allah's mercy. To become a Muslim or die.
When a Muslim tells that same story they never talk about the executions. Many of them omit that from their mind and I believe many don't know it. The fundamentalist know it and act on it.
As for the Jews, they're a special case. As Jesus, Himself a Jew, said, "Salvation is from the Jews". We know that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Moses and Elijah are in the Kingdom of Heaven, though they lived and died centuries before Christ.
Yet you could say they believed in Christ as the One Who Is To Come: they believed prospectively. They saw Him from afar: and He was their Savior.
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