Posted on 04/16/2016 8:01:29 AM PDT by Salvation
When the catholic bows down before an idol of Mary and offers prayers before that idol that is worship.
If it were any pagan religion the catholic would have no problem in identifying that practice as worship.
The reliance the catholic places on Mary regarding their salvation, forgiveness, answered prayer, etc goes way beyond Scripture and indeed, is not found in Scripture.
However, daniel1212 has done a nice word study on worship and the catholic actions toward Mary are worship.
Do yo agree with tho Orthodox term for Mary, Theotokos?
No. As the catholic meaning goes beyond what is in Scripture as it does with all of the Marian dogmas.
Of course it has, for 1,600 years ALL Christians were Catholic thus shared the same reverence for our Blessed Mother. It was the Protestant revolution, concentrated on the opinions of fallible men, Luther, Wesley, Calvin et al who strayed off the path and contrived some sort of anti-Mary attacks and thinking which they think gives them fodder for their incipient opposition to Christ's church.
Of course it has, for 1,600 years ALL Christians were Catholic thus shared the same reverence for our Blessed Mother.
You prove my point by citing the title given to Mary by roman catholicism but not the Bible.
Be sure you subtract about 300 or so years from your figure. Roman catholicism did not exist for the first 300 years or so.
There are admittedly Catholics, including Popes, who have gone beyond the devotion that is to be given to Mary. Nonetheless, the official teaching of the Church differentiates between the devotion given to Mary and the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is no sense in going into the details of this teaching for the umpteenth time. Those outside the Church are going to believe what they want to believe.
Notwithstanding the other Marian dogmas, the word Theotokos can be translated to mean “God-bearer”, “Birth-Giver of God” and “the one who gives birth to God.” Mary was given this title because her son Jesus is God.
How does this go beyond what is in Scripture? Did Mary not bear God? Did she not give birth to God?
Indeed. That may be the most honest admission I've seen on the board.
It is the popes who have promulgated this. They have been the ones to declare the marian dogmas leading roman catholicism into error. The popes should be the ones to correct these false doctrines, yet they continue to promote these.
If Roman catholicism were to renounce the teachings on Mary it would cause the rcc to collapse as we understand it today. Hundreds of millions of catholics would leave as they worship Mary almost to the point of excluding Christ. The apparitions claiming to be Mary are illustrative of this. These apparitions have announced false teachings/statements designed to bring the worship to it and not Christ.
The loss of revenue would be devastating.
Nonetheless, the official teaching of the Church differentiates between the devotion given to Mary and the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is no sense in going into the details of this teaching for the umpteenth time.
As stated previously, the "devotion" given to Mary by roman catholicism, which you admit has been exceeded by popes, renders the catholic position against what is found in the Word.
Those outside the Church are going to believe what they want to believe.
Or a more accurate assessment is those in roman catholicism are going to believe the false attributes assigned to Mary by the pope. They are going to continue to worship Mary in contradiction to the Word.
Notwithstanding the other Marian dogmas, the word Theotokos can be translated to mean “God-bearer”, “Birth-Giver of God” and “the one who gives birth to God.” Mary was given this title because her son Jesus is God.
Yet the Word notes she is "His mother" or "Mary His mother", or "mother of Him". What is telling is that in none of these references is mother ever used as a proper noun as seen in roman catholicism.
How does this go beyond what is in Scripture? Did Mary not bear God? Did she not give birth to God?
Mary gave birth to Christ as noted by the Word.
This is where the catholic begins to go beyond the Word.
If you say Christ is God (and He is), the catholic will argue why not say Mary gave birth to God?
However, would the catholic argue that Mary gave birth to the Holy Spirit as He is God?
If the catholic is allowed this reach, then the catholic can argue why is Mary not the "New Ark"? Why is she not the "Queen of Heaven"?
Again, she is not accorded this in the Word. The catholic is using analogy to make this connection. Using analogy to develop theology has been the cause of catholicism's false teaching especially on Mary.
We won't go into the catholic belief that Mary and the Holy Spirit are somehow wedded. That train of thought is something completely alien to an understanding of the Word.
I recognize that there are those who disagree with giving devotion to Mary. My only point is that the official teaching of the Church does not equate this devotion with the Adoration that is to be given only to God.
I also recognize that there are those who have a problem with calling Mary the mother of God for the reasons that you express, that it leads to inappropriate veneration of Mary. But to call Mary the mother of God in a very limited sense does not go against the Word.
You acknowledge that Mary gave birth to Christ as noted by the Word. You further agree that Christ is God. So I ask again, did Mary not give birth to God?
I understand that but the official position of the roman catholic church is incorrect.
Mormons have a lot of "official" positions on issues but this does not mean they are correct.
I also recognize that there are those who have a problem with calling Mary the mother of God for the reasons that you express, that it leads to inappropriate veneration of Mary. But to call Mary the mother of God in a very limited sense does not go against the Word.
Therein lies the problem. A little concession here, a little concession there and Mary goes from being the wife of Joseph and mother of Christ to the Queen of Heaven who is also now co-redemtrix, mediatrix and advocate...none of which can be found in the Word.
It's taken over a thousand years to get there but it's where catholicism is.
That is why Christianity does not recognize the term Theotokos.
I’ll give it one more try. Did Mary not give birth to God?
The text records:
"7And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn." Luke 2:7
23“BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” Matt 1:23
And “God with us” is God, right?
Are you suggesting that Peter was 300 years old when he became Catholicism's first Pope??? By the year 300, we went through 29 Popes....all of whom were Catholic.
#152 ~ >>>”If we all have our own interpretation of Scripture, who’s right? Baptists? Southern Baptists? ELCA Lutherans? Missouri Synod Lutherans? PCUSA Presbyterians? Free Presbyterians? I would love to hear the answer.”<<<
Regarding biblical antiquity ~ my Bible is sixteen centuries older than King James’ version - and that you can not deny...
King James and his bible were both piss-poor representations of what could have been. (IMO)
#152 ~ >>>Logic says you can’t prove a negative. Now, put up or shut up on your claim.
While everyone is at it, I have the same questions about authority and interpretation, yet no one cares to answer. I have asked it different ways, still no answer.
I will ask it again. If we all have our own interpretation of Scripture, who’s right? Baptists? Southern Baptists? ELCA Lutherans? Missouri Synod Lutherans? PCUSA Presbyterians? Free Presbyterians? I would love to hear the answer.<<<
The hate on you and Catholicism was frightening wasn’t it?
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