“Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him” (Cath Cauc)

WDTPRS ^ | April 29, 2016 | Fr. John Zuhlsdorf

[NYer]

FULL TITLE

: “Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him” – St. Catherine of Siena

Today is the – in the post-Conciliar, modern, non-traditional – Ordinary Form – Novus Ordo Calendar – Feast of St. Catherine of Siena, Patroness of Europe and named by Paul VI as Doctor of the Church. Thus, her life and works reflect something of the Church’s own role as Teacher.  Her head may be venerated in Siena and the rest of her in Rome in the Church Santa Maria sopra Minerva (near the ecclesiastical tailor Gammarelli where we are having vestments made – PLEASE CONTRIBUTE!)

I warmly recommend this volume containing Benedict XVI’s General Audience series on the Doctors of the Church.

Benedict XVI gave a wonderful general audience address about here.  HERE

During my recent exile/sojourn in New York City, and during one of my visits to the Met, I spotted three little paintings depicting moments in the life of this great saint.  These panels, tempera and gold leaf on wood, were part of an altarpiece commissioned after Catherine was canonized in 1460.  They are based on her biography by Bl. Raymond of Capua (+1399), who was Catherine’s spiritual director.  Think about that, Fathers!  There are two more of these panels in another part of the Met, but it was closed off the day I was there.

This panel shows a common theme for Catherine, her “mystical marriage” with the Lord, as he places a ring on her finger.

According to Bl. Raymond, Christ appeared to Catherine holding a human heart in his hand. He opened her side and put the heart into her saying, “Dearest daughter, as I took your heart away from you the other day, now, you see, I am giving you mine, so that you can go on living with it for ever”.  Thus, Catherine experience what St. Paul wrote, “And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me.” (Gal 2:20).  She has the mystical-cloud, floating-above-the-rooftops thing going on and, from His gestures, you can tell that the Lord is talking to her.  For her part, she gestures to herself, as if to say, “Unworthy me?”

Again according to Bl. Raymond:

“For the seven year period prior to her death, Saint Catherine of Siena took no food into her body other than the Eucharist. Her fasting did not affect her energy, however. She maintained a very active life during those seven years. As a matter of fact, most of her great accomplishments occurred during that period. Not only did her fasting not cause her to lose energy, but became a source of extraordinary strength, she becoming stronger in the afternoon, after having received our Lord in His Eucharist.

In Rome there is a chapel where Catherine received Communion in this manner and priests can say Mass there.

NB: Talk about “turning your back to the people!”  I always enjoy these old depictions of Mass.  You can see interesting details, such as vestments, etc.

So, there is a little touch of Catherine for you today.

I will also call to your minds something she wrote about Popes.

Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope. I know very well that many defend themselves by boasting: “They are so corrupt, and work all manner of evil!” But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.
— Saint Catherine of Siena in St. Catherine of Siena, SCS, p. 201-202, p. 222.

And, to Florentines, who were rebelling against Pope Gregory XI:

“He who rebels against our Father, Christ on earth, is condemned to death, for that which we do to him, we do to Christ in heaven – we honor Christ if we honor the pope, we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the pope… I tell you that God will and has so commanded that even if the priests and the pastors of the Church and Christ on earth were incarnate devils, it is seemly that we are obedient and subject to them, not for their sake, but for the sake of God, out of obedience to Him, for He wills that we should act thus.
“Know that the son is never in the right against the father, even if the father is ever so evil and unjust, for so great is the good which he has received from the father, that is, life itself, that he can never repay him for it. And we have received the life of grace from the Church, which is so great a benefit, that we can never, by any kind of homage or gratitude, pay the debt we owe.”
From Anne Baldwin’s Catherine of Siena: A Biography. Huntington, IN: OSV Publishing, 1987, pp.95-6

[NYer]

CATHOLIC CAUCUS

[NYer]

Catholic ping!

[SubMareener]

Salvation is personal. Be a Victor!

Revelation 2
7 “’”Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
To the victor I will give the right to eat from the tree of life that is in the garden of God.”’
- - - - -
11 “’”Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
The victor shall not be harmed by the second death.”’

17 “’”Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
To the victor I shall give some of the hidden manna; I shall also give a white amulet upon which
is inscribed a new name, which no one knows except the one who receives it.”’
- - - - -
24 But I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not uphold this teaching and
know nothing of the so-called deep secrets of Satan: on you I will place no further burden,
25 except that you must hold fast to what you have until I come.
26 “’”To the victor, who keeps to my ways until the end, I will give authority over the nations.
27 He will rule them with an iron rod. Like clay vessels will they be smashed,
28 just as I received authority from my Father. And to him I will give the morning star.
29 “’”Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
- - - - -
Revelation 3
4 However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments;
they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy.
5 “’”The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name
from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my
Father and of his angels.
6 “’”Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
- - - - -
20 “’”Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and
opens the door, [then] I will enter his house and dine with him, and he with me.
21 I will give the victor the right to sit with me on my throne, as I myself
first won the victory and sit with my Father on his throne.

22 “’”Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”
- - - - -

* [2:7] Victor: referring to any Christian individual who holds fast to the faith
and does God’s will in the face of persecution. The tree of life that is in the
garden of God: this is a reference to the tree in the primeval paradise (Gn 2:9);
cf. Rev 22:2, 14, 19. The decree excluding humanity from the tree of life has
been revoked by Christ.

http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/2
http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/3

[alloysteel]

The Pope can’t be Lucifer.

That position is now being filled by Ted Cruz.

We have this on good authority, from John Boehner, no less.

[Talisker]

And, to Florentines, who were rebelling against Pope Gregory XI: “Know that the son is never in the right against the father, even if the father is ever so evil and unjust..."

But:

Jesus, Matthew 10: 34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

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So this one is confusing, because Christ addressed it directly - but Catherine of Siena is a Saint. So how to decide and interpret properly? What is the Catholic teaching on the declarations of Saints?

Catholic question here.

[Byron_the_Aussie]

.. Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him ..

This Pope doesn't have the personality for a personality cult.

[onedoug]

Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom.

How would this not be seen as surrender to evil?

[backwoods-engineer]

Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him, but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom. He who rebels against our Father is condemned to death, for that which we do to him we do to Christ: we honor Christ if we honor the Pope; we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the Pope.

Thanks for posting this. I always thought the Catherine of Sienna and the rest of the transubstantiation cult was a little off, and now I'm sure of it.

On the contrary, our Lord's brother said:

Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (James 4:7)

Who are you going to believe? Her, or James?

And here is St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:

[9] I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— [10] not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. [11] But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Again, who are you going to believe? Her, or Paul?

If the Pope is a sinful man, true Christians should not associate him, and should encourage him to repent. This present Pope should repent.

[Bratch]

No dog in this hunt, but if St. Paul’s words are taken literally, the attendance at church picnics would be awfully sparse.

[vladimir998]

“So this one is confusing, because Christ addressed it directly”

No, He did not. Jesus was talking about setting a man against his father in His own day and metaphorically later on. He was not discussing what Catherine said. Jesus was talking about faith in Him setting a man against his father. Catherine was talking about a man being obedient to his father because of faith in Christ.

” - but Catherine of Siena is a Saint.”

She is a saint. And saints - because of their holiness - often have great insights. People who ridicule them often not only have no insight but are often too bigoted to even understand the most basic of obvious things.

“So how to decide and interpret properly?”

How about by not taking Jesus’ comments out of their historical context or forgetting about the fact that Catherine lived 1300 years later?

“What is the Catholic teaching on the declarations of Saints?”

What is the likelihood you would understand it if you can’t understand what Catherine said?

[If You Want It Fixed - Fix It]

But isnt that what a dynamic catholic does.....ask a good question and wait for the church to explain, rather than nail a complaint to a door, close his mind, and scream schism.

Someone competent in church teaching will explain it....its the church of truth afterall, lead by sinners.

[piusv]

A bad pope is not the same as a heretical “pope”.

[piusv]

I don’t believe that St Catherine of Siena is necessarily contradicting Christ here. Christ is speaking of family members being against each other because one accepts and follows Christ and another does not. Having said that, a saint is not infallible.

[Talisker]

People who ridicule them often not only have no insight but are often too bigoted to even understand the most basic of obvious things. How about by not taking Jesus’ comments out of their historical context or forgetting about the fact that Catherine lived 1300 years later? What is the likelihood you would understand it if you can’t understand what Catherine said?

So Jesus' teaching only applied to his immediate environment 2000 years ago, but Catherine's teachings are to be considered contemporary because she lived 550 years ago, and I'm a bigot for asking about an apparent direct contradiction with Christ, and too ignorant, really, to even ask anything at all?

LOL, you know, I was raised in the Church and left it because of the unbelieveable level of arrogant, contemptuous jackassery I had to deal with for asking the simplest of questions. So occasionally, I ask similiar questions here, to check that decision I made - just simple, straightforward, and honest questions about my actual understanding. And you never fail me - rushing out of whatever priest hole you live in, to spew invective as hard and fast as you can, utterly blind to your own hatred - and yes, you portray real, genuine hatred. It rolls off of you like a black cloud of filth.

So for your consistency, thank you - really. Once again, you have absolutely confirmed my decision to leave the Church, and I think I'm pretty much done with any more reality checks, because you ARE the reality of the Church, and I need to just accept that. Because the truth is that for all it's claims, the Church CREATES creatures like you, utterly devoid of the love of Christ, soul predator looking for victims, and I have zero interest in getting near such a stink ever again. So this is a good thread - it made that really clear to me, and in doing so, reflected once and for all to what Catholicism really is.

Because really, what a devious question I asked, eh? A Saint directly contradicting the words of Christ - when everyone knows Christ was only talking about those people with him then at that time, and that obedience to the Pope has absolutely nothing to do with obedience to Christ, within the Catholic Church. Yeah, what a scoundrel I am to even ask!

Again, thank you for being such a TRUE Catholic. As a result of your efforts, I have no more questions.

[bigbob]

THe Satanists are already upset about Boehner comparing Cruz to Satan, and now this...

[piusv]

Hey, what about my response?

[Talisker]

Hey, what about my response?

You are a flower amongst the flack, and I thank you. I just happen to be a fan of Catherine of Sienna, and so getting attacked over an honest query about her hit me particularly wrong, especially today. And when I saw from where it came, it really feels like a bigger message. I'm fed up, and it's been a long, long, long time of the same thing. Peace.

[bboop]

You just go about your business, just like you do with any pastor. The Pope’s in Rome. He’ll be gone in a bit. It’s really just you and Jesus, always, is it not??

[jacknhoo]

Catholicism has such a glorious ebb and flow to it. Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be. Amen.

[stocksthatgoup]

: “Even if the Pope were Satan incarnate, we ought not to raise up our heads against him” – St. Catherine of Siena

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As a Catholic, I believe I will follow Christ than Satan Incarnate.
God gave me reason and intuition and prayer to follow the right path.
BTW. Is this Pope CAtholic?