Posted on 05/21/2016 8:38:01 AM PDT by Salvation
Q. Many of our Protestant brethren say that, before Jesus comes, there will be a rapture wherein all the faithful will be taken up, I guess, to meet Him in the sky. When I tell them that the Bible says we will “see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven” (Mt 24:30) and “he will send his angels ... and they will gather his elect from the four winds” (Mt 24:31), and then ask them who will be left to “gather” if everyone has previously been “raptured,” they say it will be the Jews. What is the Church’s teaching on this? Will there even be such a thing as the rapture? I’m confused! Any light you can shed on the subject will be greatly appreciated!
Rich Willette, Springfield, Vt.
A. The notion of rapture (a Latin word that means to be snatched away) is a very novel concept among certain (not all) evangelicals. It is a notion less than 150 years old and finds no real support in the biblical text as you point out. Fundamentally, the theory asserts that before the final tribulations of the last times, faithful Christians will be snatched away. Rapture theorists disagree about the exact moment of the snatching. Some say it will be pre-tribulation, others midway through the tribulations, and some even say post-tribulation.
The root text for evangelicals who hold rapture theory is a text from the First Letter to the Thessalonians: “Indeed. we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words” (4:15-18).
The context is the second coming of Christ. There are not two second comings taught in Scripture, but rapture theory posits two — the one described in First Thessalonians and another one, some 1,000 years later. Note, too, that in First Thessalonians there is no mention of some people being left behind. There is no mention of a 1,000-year reign. Nor does St. Paul indicate that what he is describing here is a different coming of Christ, distinct from other texts in the Gospel wherein Christ describes His own second coming.
Thus we are left with a text that simply does not support what rapture theorists say. They further strive to unnaturally stitch this account with other texts in the Book of Revelation. The result is a highly debatable account of the last days that even rapture theorists hotly debate in terms of the details. The whole enterprise amounts to an attempt to shoehorn biblical passages into rapture theory that more clearly call it into question. To say the “elect” are merely the Jews is speculative at best and fanciful and contrived at worst.
As for Catholic teaching on these matters, the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes it as follows: “Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers [see Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12]. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the ‘mystery of iniquity’ in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. [see 2 Thes 2:4-12; 1 Thes 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18-22]” (No. 675).
Here again you are in error. You are forced once again to twist the clear meaning of the text to conform to pre-trib Dispensationalism.
This is what the text is saying: Jesus "answered specifically regarding the END of the Age." This much you got correct. But here comes your subtle twist: i.e., Jesus actually meant "the end of the Great Tribulation."
False! If Jesus meant to be speaking of "the end of the Tribulation" he would have specified exactly that. But he did not. He was replying to a question about "THE END OF THE AGE."
Now as a pre-trib Dispensationalist you are doubtlessly familiar with the meaning of the term "Age". This would be (according to Dispensationalism) the Church Age.
Jesus was speaking about the eschatological events that would occur in the leading up to the end of the Church Age. There is NO justification for twisting this to mean he was instead only referring to the last part of some 7 year tribulation period!
Thus, once again, Jesus' teaching is clear: His coming for the saints will occur after the events of the period of tribulation, when He will "gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
The teaching of Jesus on His coming for His saints, together with that of the Apostle Paul, are clear.
Psalm 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Tired old fingers: ‘ sexond ‘ should be spelled ‘ second ‘.
Who asked Jesus about the Temple they saw glimmering in the evening sunlight, as they walked from the Temple Mount down the path and up onto the mount of Olives? What was the question asked of Jesus that launched Him into the Olivet Discourse ... and how does that Discourse differ from the Temple Discourse found in Luke’s Gospel which cause the Disciple to ask specifically about the end of the Age?
Have nice day
There’s nothing in the NT to say that Yeshua was returning to visit Saul on the road to Damascus as a “Coming” ...The First Coming was the Suffering Messiah, to deliver us from sin, His Second Coming is as role of Conquering Messiah for whom the Jews were looking for in the first place to deliver them from Rome.
That's a bad rumor you guys have been repeating for some time...No fact to it...
But look...The bible's clear...The church will be caught out and up to meed the Lord in the air...So of course there's a Rapture...
At the Rapture, believers throughout History will be called out. At the Second touchdown the Angels will go a gathering in preparation of the Jusgment. we Who believe are already judged and born from above, no longer under condemnation. THAT is the Grace of God in Christ. And this born from above group have no distinction between Jew and Gentile. In the Tribulation the distinction will once again be a burden on Jews and those who will not worship the Beast.
So by that criteria, we can then dismiss the unscriptural nonsense about the assumption of Mary which became official church doctrine in 1950.
To which the same argument could be applied to all of the Marian dogmas fostered by the roman catholic church.
The Bible speaks of the last trumpet when the dead in Christ are raised to meet Him in the air; the last trumpet is the seventh trumpet which heralds the end of the Tribulation. How can the saints be caught up in the air at the last trumpet when it announces the end of the Tribulation?
Exactly......
Things like cut off switches for dangerous machines, bunkers of prepared food for feeding children, endowments for non-raptured folks to help society, not taking jobs like being an airline pilot, using public transportation, not having pets. Just stuff to help, right?
Freegard
When Paul penned his letter to the Thessalonians, the destruction of Jerusalem had not yet happened AND the Revelation of John had not been written. It is doubtful that Paul would have referred the Thessalonian believers to something that had not even been written yet. Look for another source as having a ‘last trumpet sound’ ...
Then why are we given new incorruptible celestial bodies instead of new corruptible terrestrial bodies???
The only physical bodies in heaven are Jesus, Enoch and Elijah. Bodies are for earth, a new millennial rule of Jesus on earth.
How do you know Jesus has a physical body...Scripture tells us no one knows what he looks like...We know he can walk thru walls...We know you can put your hand inside his body, and no blood comes out...We know a multi million man army can't hurt him...
And another thing we know is the church will live and reign with him for a thousand years on earth...So tell us...Who are we going to reign over???
When does the wedding of the Groom and Bride take place...Where does it take place...
IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation Jesus gathers his elect ( not before the tribulation). You can’t read the word of God and support this false rapture teaching.
Where does God get the elect from???
31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The four winds??? And Heaven??? How in the world did God's elect get to Heaven???
The reason there is no scriptural support for this, or any of the Marian dogmas, is because there is no scriptural support for them.
It is based on a lot of "it seems" and "it stands to reason".
Even the catholic encyclopedia online admits there is no scriptural support for the immaculate conception. None.
It won't matter...Clothes won't be able to withstand the trip anyway...
So when is the last day...Martha knew when the last day was...
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
The Last Day is the last day...
Rev_20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
On the last day the heavens and earth will disappear...That has nothing to do with the Rapture or 2nd Coming...
Salvation,
This is such a fruitless subject.
From the reign of Constantine to Charles V the Western World experienced over a 1,000 years reign of Christo-centric civilization. I’m with G.K. Chesterton, it has already happened.
“Wheresoever the body shall be, there shall the eagles also be gathered together.” Matt 24:28
If we agree that “Eagles” are the saints/saved/in-the-state-of-grace, then what is the “body” referring to here?
Catholics and Orthodox and other Apostolic Churches believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is truly present Body-Blood-Soul-Divinity in the Eucharist, that when Jesus says “This is my Body”, He means it, and His Word does not fail.
BLUF: Stay close to the Eucharist and you will be saved. If you have oil in your lamp and the Bridegroom comes unannounced, it is no big deal.
Where I'm coming from is: I'm Jewish, a Messianic Jew (and I've argued that point with people here). I've had relatives that went through the Holocaust as well as relatives that didn't. The ones that didn't suffered psychological guilt of not having been caught up in it and escaped before being arrested and managed to get to America.
From my perspective then. If the Rapture is true and it happens I for one would not want to be "caught up" like that and would want to suffer through the Tribulation for one reason and one reason alone and that is: So you get Raptured and are up there with the saints of old and you get into a discussion and are asked by one of them "So, how were your martyred for your faith in Yeshua? I was martyred in Rome in the Colosseum by being torn apart by lions, and Seth over there was dipped in tar along with a few hundred other Christians and lit on fire to illuminate the road to Nero's house; so how were you martyred?" You might say "Well I just finished shopping at Safeway after picking up the kids from soccer and driving my SUV to McDonald's when 'whoosh' I'm here." The saint talking to you gets this puzzled look and says "But were you killed? Torn apart by this McDonald? And this SUV that you speak of, did it attack you and crush you?"
This is what I mean. I could not face the early saints who were killed sometimes in the most horrific manner and speak with them with a straight face after living a life of pretty much no want or cruelty because of my faith in Yeshua.
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