Why Does Jesus Call the Father Greater If We Teach That the Members of the Trinity Are Equal?

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 05-23-16 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[arthurus]

Also at Amazon and the map of how we got here ->

Mohammed and Charlemagne

and for the Epilogue that ties it up in a shorter piece->

Mohammed and Charlemagne: the Epilogue"

The book is required reading for those who want to understand what is happening.

[Ezekiel]

Now, if Jesus was just a holy man and not God, he would have reprimanded these people as Peter or angels did when people tried to worship them, however Jesus never did that, he allowed the worship. This leaves us only with two possibilities: either Jesus believed himself to be God, or Jesus was NOT a holy man at all, but a scoundrel who knew himself not to be God, but allowed people to gravely sin by worshiping him anyway. There is no third option where Jesus is holy but not God.

Sure there is - the correct option, the one which doesn't start out with an apologist narrowly defining a word for the benefit of that apologist's argument. The one which discerns the difference between giving homage due to a king and worshiping God. The contrived premise schtick is right out of the handbook of psychological manipulation. That's not directed at you; I am merely pointing out how this stuff is passed on to the sheep by wolves dressed as shepherds, and then the sheep tell the other sheep, and then all the sheep get swallowed up and don't know what ate them. Nothing jumped into the sheepfold, and the shepherd stayed on watch, yet...

It's not uncommon to see in Christian writings these sorts of phrases sprinkled about:

"Every serious student of the Bible knows..."

or

"Those who deny [the trinity]..."

As if the eager reader isn't a serious student if he doesn't already "know" such-and-such, or that whosoever denies a certain doctrine is denying the truth. That's the crafty set-up: state the defacto established "truths", then follow with more "truths". These teachers will have their reward for their serpent-like tactics.

People are so accustomed to that kind of subtle manipulation, that they don't see it. They not only don't see it, they unwittingly replicate it. It's how they are taught (infected). It's the life cycle of a virus.

John 9:29-41

29 We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.
30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvelous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

For judgment I am come into this world...

Bad eyes that "see" with perfect vision are already at home in the darkness. If the light therein be darkness, how great that darkness.

Burns me up that because of the ubiquity of deceit, when the truth appears, it can be perceived as yet another lie. In any case, the right answer is always worth the wait. The truth is always worth the dogged pursuit of it. The Messiah, the embodiment of truth, is worth the wait. He rectifies all things, so he's worth every effort to push past the noise and confusion in order to see him clearly.

[Mark17]

Thanks for the links. I will check them out. From time spent in the arm pit of the world (Muslim areas) I have a pretty good idea of what's going on, but I can always learn more.

Welcome home from Nam bro. It's probably something that those who were never in country, may not entirely grasp.

[verga]

If you have a better explanation of the Trinity I would be glad to read it.

[verga]

Thanks I will check those out

[rwa265]

One day, two “saints” knocked at my Dad’s door. He invited them in, saying, “I am in the middle of studying the commentaries of St. Jerome. Would you like to join me”? They politely declined and went on their merry way.

[Mark17]

That sounds more like the experience I have had with Jehovah's Witnesses. They come over a lot. Most of the time I just tell them I am a born again Christian, and we talk for a bit, then they leave. Other times, I have told them, ok, let's have a word of prayer, then we will discuss the Bible, but we will not use the New World Translation. Sometimes they will, but I always have to define every term I use, because words that I know and use, mean different things to them, and need to be defined. It is great fun sometimes, to go round and round with them. 😀

[verga]

I always invite the LDS and JW’s in. we sit and talk on any number of topics. I figure the longer they spend with me the less time they can spend with one of my neighbors that might not be a strong or as knowledgeable in their faith.

[arthurus]

When I was a kid I thought JWs were crazy. I remember a foot actually stuck in the door as my mother was trying to close it in the early 60s. The JW missionaries seemed pretty pernicious. In the 70s I worked as a jewelry repair guy in a jewelry store in Gainesville fl and the jeweler was a JW and something strange to my recollections. He and I discussed religion reasonably without any rancor but with intelligent observations and discussion. Later I had missionaries at the door and they were quite different from the ones I had experienced as a child. They had obviously gone to Mormon Missionary School and were much easier to talk to. They were not all young men like the Mormons but they were no longer strident and pushing their pamphlets in your face. I have actually invited both brands of missionary in for coffee (both sets declined the coffee but were okay with pineapple juice)and had interesting discussions with them. Nobody converted anybody but it was worth the time.

[arthurus]

I spent much of my youth in Istanbul in the 50s and have paid close attention to things Turkish and Moslem ever since. In the 50s Americans didn’t quite walk on water but it was close. I was a Turkish partisan on FR 15 years ago but keeping my fingers crossed as I saw the changes beginning to transpire. I still like the middle class Turks. They are western oriented who believe the government should not mix with religion and are fighting a lowing battle against the Islamists. It is not really a battle because they are still Moslems and share the fatalism of that brand though to a rather lesser extent than the sheepherders.

[Mark17]

I figure the longer they spend with me the less time they can spend with one of my neighbors that might not be a strong or as knowledgeable in their faith

Interesting way to look at it. I think I have better success with JWs than LDS.

[verga]

I figure the longer they spend with me the less time they can spend with one of my neighbors that might not be a strong or as knowledgeable in their faith Interesting way to look at it. I think I have better success with JWs than LDS.

At the Catholic Answers website they have a list of questions to ask JW's and one to ask LDS. I printed out a copy of those and keep them next to the front door. I also have a copy of the Greek New Testament with John 1:1 book marked. Spiros Zodhiates has a KJV English/Greek parallel Translation of the NT. I have John 1:1 book marked there as well. That was a bit pricey, but I love to see the look on the Jw's face when I show it to them in both books.

[CTrent1564]

Elsie:

Really? Plates? and “Mormon Scriptures” and your going to become a God in the future ruling your planet. So if Star Trek becomes a reality in the future, Captain Kirk will take the enterprise to your planet, that you will rule one day, and he will tell Scotty to energize and beam me up and down from your planet?

Good grief.

[Mark17]

Hang in there. I was not in Istanbul or Constantinople. I was in Adana, which I heard is far more primitive than Istanbul. I thought it was like a bad dream, but I made it out on a C-141 freedom bird, from Adana to Athens to Torreon to Rhein Main.

[Mark17]

I trained 3 Greek pilots in the fine art of istrument flight procedures, and I thought, here is my chance. I was able to ask them the meanings of Greek words and phrases that I had heard of from the Bible. I asked about numerous things, but the one that stands out in my memory, is the Greek word for "it is finished" that Jesus said on the cross. Not knowing it came from the Bible, they simply said, that it meant whatever job or task someone had been assigned to accomplish, they accomplished it.
We trained pilots from Canada, UK, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Greece, France, and Spain, but I think I had the most fun with the Greeks.

[MHGinTN]

!

[verga]

After Gulf War I my sister lived in Saudi Arabia and dated an American Fighter pilot. He was in the First Sortie (Sp?) over Kuwait. After the war part of his job was to train the new muslim "pilots" Class would begin at 6 am the members of the royal family would show up at 9 am if they showed up at all. When he told them they had to be there at 6 am they would send a servant to get the information for them.
He told me they were called rag heads and not just for their head wear.

[verga]

?

[MHGinTN]

I liked the notion of occupying them to relieve your neighbors of having to be mentally bludgeoned ...

[Mark17]

I would be willing to bet he was flying the F-117.
The Iranians in UPT were called various colorful names too. The instructor pilots had a running joke with them, and always told them, in an emergency, always break left. They figured sooner or later, they would face them in combat, so they wanted some idea what they would do in a pinch. I just taught pilots how to dream up instrument flight arrival and departure procedures. It is an art.