Posted on 05/25/2016 3:57:03 AM PDT by JosephJames
t has always been the habit of Catholics in danger and in troublous times to fly for refuge to Mary, and to seek for peace in her maternal goodness; showing that the Catholic Church has always, and with justice, put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God.
No one can understand this correctly if they do not have this Catholic context. And if they ignore or reject the Catholic context, they have a defective and distorted Marianism they can deplore--- but it isn't Catholic.
Then why drag Mary into it at all?
Why not just go right to Christ, who is the One who said, "Follow me" and (John 14:13-14) "Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it."?
If you're going to put so much weight on Mary's words to * Do whatever He tells you.", then do it. And show us ANYWHERE in Scripture where He said anything about us relating to Mary.
You trust Mary to trust Christ on your behalf? Why? Can't Catholics trust Christ on their own behalf for themselves?
HE told us that if we had faith the size of a mustard seed, we could move mountains.
If you have enough faith to trust Mary, you have enough faith to trust Christ.
The only problem I see here is that it exposes that people DON'T have enough faith to trust Christ for themselves and so have to add Mary to it to do it for them.
I'd go to, or through, someone else too, if I didn't believe that Jesus would be true to His promises to me.
Communion of Saints.
Nobody's "dragging" Mary into His Body.
Nobody's "dragging" Mary into the Communion of Saints.
She actually has a special place --- almost like, Christ is the head and she is the neck (!) --- because she is His sole natural,living connection with all of his human ancestors --- David, Abraham,Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Adam ---and thus with the human race and human nature.
She is the image of Faithful Israel, daughter Jerusalem, Virgin Daughter Zion. She is the image of the Church: Lady Ecclesia, hearing the Word of God and keeping it --- He is "great in her midst," she bearing Him in her womb --- nurturing every aspect of His humanity --- bringing Him forth to the world to be adored --- being faithful to Him at every stage of His earthly life, from the first day of His conception as an embryo, to His last dying breath. And being brought into the home of the Beloved Disciple to be protected and loved: our homes, too!
We're all related to Jesus --- on His mother's side.
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you—how the Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took a loaf of bread, 24 gave thanks for it, and broke it in pieces, saying, “This is my body that is for you. Keep doing this in memory of me.” 25 He did the same with the cup after the supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. As often as you drink from it, keep doing this in memory of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink from this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
You have been so thoroughly indoctrinated that you cannot see what Paul is actually saying. First, He repeats what Jesus told His disicples during the Remembrance of the Passover meal from the exodus. And in that night of the last Passover Jesus told His disciples He would not drink THE FRUIT OF THE VINE again until He came into the kingdom. JESUS identified the cup as having wine, not blood.
Jesus established a new covenant on that night, and you would have us believe He violated His own given laws against actual eating of human flesh and drinking of blood when He established this New Covenant.
The you ignore that Paul called the bread, bread AFTER He established this REMEMBRANCE to proclaim the Lord's Death until He comes. Paul did not say these Corinthians must eat Hod's flesh and drink His actual blood, as clearly indicated with the last sentence in the posted paragraph.
I must ask you, do you REALLY believe Jesus would establish a New Covenant by violating the Laws He gave to the world against eating human flesh and drinking blood? Do you REALLY believe you ingest the soul and divinity of GOD at the Mass? Do you really believe Jesus would want Catholics to violate the laws which JESUS said would not pass away?
We glory in those who have gone ahead of us to Heaven, for their glory is a shadow of Christ's Eternal Glory. They are an inspiration. Since Christ is our Lord, we look to those who served Him dutifully and with great humility as role models of the faith. Does acknowledging that detract from the Glory of God?
Do not the angels themselves rejoice in Heaven over one who repents? (Luke 15:10)
Is not the Kingdom of Heaven likened to a grand wedding feast, wherein only those who don wedding garments (who have, in essence, been sanctified in a manner befitting the celebration) remain, and those who do not are cast into the darkness? (Matthew 22:1-14)
You speak of the mustard seed as a parable for faith. It is also used to describe the Kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 13:31-32); Jesus speaks of how the diminutive mustard seed sprouts into a grand bush ("greater than any herb"), such that even the birds can nestle in its branches. Is the Kingdom of Heaven so limited that the example of those who have gone before us detract from God's Majesty? Or are they the birds that draw attention to that grand bush, the lights that draw attention to the Glory of Christ's Kingdom?
Did not Paul, in his second epistle to the Thessalonians, say that we would possess the glory of our Lord through the Gospel? (2 Thessalonians 2:13-17)
In the time of Islam's rise, St. John of Damascus wrote a compelling treatise titled Defense Against Those who Oppose Holy Images. I link to the entire article, but I will quote some choice sections:
Worship is one thing, veneration another. The invisible things of God have been made visible through images since the creation of the world. We see images in creation which remind us faintly of God, e.g. in order to talk about the holy and worshipful Trinity, we use the images of the sun and rays of light, a spring and a full river, the mind and speech and the spirit within us, or a rose tree, a sprouting flower, and a sweet fragrance. Also events in the future can be foreshadowed mystically by images. For instance, the ark represents the image of Our Lady, the Mother of God. So does the staff and the earthen jar. The bronze serpent shows us the one who defeated the bite of the original serpent on the Cross; [Jn 3:14-15] the sea, water and the cloud depict the grace of baptism. [I Cor. 10.1]
You must understand that there are different degrees of worship. First of all the full worship which we show to God, who alone is by nature worthy of worship. But, for the sake of God who is worshipful by nature, we honor and venerate his saints and servants. It is in this sense that Joshua and Daniel worshipped an angel, [Jos. 5.14, Dan. 8:16-17] and David worshipped the Lord’s holy places, when be said, “Let us go to the place where his feet have stood.” [Ps. 132.7] Similarly, his dwelling place is worshipped, as when all the people of Israel adored in the tabernacle, and they stood round the temple in Jerusalem gazing at it from all sides worshipping, as they still do.
The cherubim, for example, are mere creatures. Why, then, does he allow cherubim, carved by human hand, to overshadow the mercy—seat in the temple? Obviously it is impossible to make an image of God because is infinite and changeless, or of someone like God because creation should not be worshipped as God. But he allowed the people to make an image of the cherubim who are finite and who lie in adoration before his throne, overshadowing the mercy-seat. It was fitting that the image of the heavenly choirs should overshadow the divine mysteries. Would you say that the ark of the covenant and staff and mercy-seat were not made by human hands? Do they not consist of what you call contemptible matter? What was the tabernacle itself? Was it not an image? Did it not depict a reality beyond itself? This is why the holy Apostle says that the rituals of the law, “serve as an example and shadow of heavenly things.” [Heb. 8.5] Moses, when he came to finish the tabernacle, was told “make sure that you make everything according to the pattern that you were shown on the Mountain.” [Ex. 25.40] The law was not an image itself, but it shrouded the image. In the words of the same Apostle, “the law contains the shadow of the goods to come, not the image of those things.” [Heb. 10.1]
So, since the law is a forerunner of images, how can we say that it forbids images? Should the law ban us from making images, when the tabernacle itself was a depiction, a foreshadowing? No. There is a time for everything. [Eccl. 3.1] In the old days, the incorporeal and infinite God was never depicted. Now, however, when God has been seen clothed in flesh, and talking with mortals, [Baruch 3.37] I make an image of the God whom I see. I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honoring that matter which works my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God.
I honor all matter, and venerate it. Through it, filled, as it were, with a divine power and grace, my salvation has come to me. Was the three-times happy and blessed wood of the Cross not matter? Was the sacred and holy mountain of Calvary not matter? What of the life-giving rock, the Holy Tomb, the source of our resurrection — was it not matter? Is the holy book of the Gospels not matter? Is the blessed table which gives us the Bread of Life not matter? Are the gold and silver, out of which crosses and altar-plate and chalices are made not matter? And before all these things, is not the body and blood of our Lord matter? Either stop venerating all these things, or submit to the tradition of the Church in the venerating of images, honoring God and his friends, and following in this the grace of the Holy Spirit. Do not despise matter, for it is not despicable. Nothing that God has made is. Only that which does not come from God is despicable — our own invention, the spontaneous decision to disregard the law of human nature, i.e., sin.
The Kingdom of Heaven has many great treasures, all of which reflect the Glory of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. For they who do what Christ commands, He counts not as a mere slave or servant, but as His friend (John 15:1-17)! Why then, would we malign and denigrate the ones whom God calls His friends?
Do you believe you consume the actual soul and divinity of GOD at catholic Mass?
Also, since we're talking about 1 Corinthians 11, let's continue on past verse 26:
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
Very interesting for a mere symbol to have such power.
The argument of cannibalism has been leveled against Christianity since its earliest days. Here are but two defenses out of many.
But lastly, consider that Christ is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. (John 1:29) He is the perfect Lamb, the perfect Paschal sacrifice.
Recall that when God instituted the Passover to the Israelites in Egypt, He specifically commanded them to eat the lamb. (Exodus 12:8-10)
No one can understand this correctly if they do not have this Catholic context. And if they ignore or reject the Catholic context, they have a defective and distorted Marianism they can deplore--- but it isn't Catholic.
One doesn't have to be catholic to understand catholicism as one does not have to be Mormon to understand Mormonism.
Catholicism's own writings and teachings attribute to Mary a role far greater than conveyed in the NT.
Catholics have attributed to Mary the titles of Advocate, Mediatrix and Redemtrix which are already assigned to Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother. Ocotobri mense, Leo XIII
Only the first part of this is accurate as noted in John 14:6. John noted no such additional requirement or path to Christ. All can come to Christ without the aid of Mary. We do not have to go through her to get to the Son.
St. Augustine rightly calls her the only hope of us sinners, since by her means alone we hope for the remission of all our sins. And St. John Chrysostom repeats the same thing, namely, that sinners receive pardon only through the intercession of Mary. St. Alphonsus Liguori, The Glories of Mary , pp83-84.,” It should be noted the Archbishop of New York noted: “ This new and improved translation of “The Glories of Mary,” having been duly examined is hereby approved of. NY Jan 21st, 1862 (It’s hard to determine the year) http://www.themostholyrosary.com/the-glories-of-mary.pdf
No where in the NT is this taught. In fact, it contradicts the NT in we only have hope for the remission of our sins through Christ and Christ alone.
It never ceases to amaze me that if Mary were so important to our salvation and forgiveness of sins we should have mention of her in this aspect in the New Testament. That we don't is telling. The entire focus in the NT is on Christ and His forgiveness and only His forgiveness, for us.
29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.
It appears you read that sentence and take it to mean discerning the body means the bread is the body, the actual physical body. That of course would violate the Laws. So, when a seeming contradiction arises in the Teaching from Jesus, we need to consult the Scripture for clarification, not the traditions of an organization.
I ask you again, do you believe God would establish a New Covenant by violating His own laws against eating human flesh and drinking blood. The seekers after signs thought Jesus was telling them they must eat His flesh, and knowing the laws they failed to see the metaphorical in the message and thus missed entirely the SPIRITUAL Truth Jesus was teaching. Catholicism chooses to apply the words as strictly as they can and in so doing show they believe God would violate His own laws. Does that seem right to you?
Can you literally eat judgment onto yourself? Paul says that if we fail to see the spiritual rather than the carnal, if we fail to see the metaphorical we then violate the laws of God against eating human flesh and drinking the blood and are guilty SPIRITUALLY of cannibalism and drinking blood.
Your religion teaches you that you ingest His Blood, soul, and divinity in the Catholic Mass. Did Jesus have four legs and a tail? Was Jesus bled in kosher preparation for the Passover REMEBRANCE.
When you try to justify error you only increase the error. Even in John's Revelation the phrasing is 'as it were' or as if when referring to the Lamb who is worthy to take the book and open the seals. Does The Christ have hooves or Hnads?
If Christ’s Flesh profits nothing, as you assert, then why did He become Incarnate in a body of human flesh and human blood?
Hebrews 2:14 says why Christ as the children came through this flesh age.
You appear to need to twist the comments. JESUS said the flesh profiteth nothing. What do YOU suppose Jesus meant?
Well, let’s consider.
When Christ said “the flesh profiteth nothing”, whose flesh is He referring to?
His? The same flesh that was Incarnate in the womb of a virgin, that fasted for 40 days and was tempted (unsuccessfully, mind you) by the Devil, that was baptized in the Jordan by John the Baptist, whose very touch could heal the blind, the lame, and the sick? The same flesh that was Transfigured in the sight of Peter, James, and John? The same flesh that was crucified on the Cross for our sins, that was Resurrected in a glorified body, and Ascended entirely into Heaven before the very eyes of His disciples? The same flesh that, I reiterate, was spoken of quite plainly as the Bread of Life - the new Manna - by Christ Himself?
Or was He talking about some other kind of flesh? Perhaps the flesh by which the Jews judged? Consider the example of Nicodemus in John 3:1-7; when Christ first speaks of being born again from above, Nicodemus incredulously assumes the prospect of crawling back into his mother’s womb. Even after Christ speaks of being born of water and Spirit - Baptism - Nicodemus still doesn’t get it. So too with the five thousand.
But I need not twist anything, for the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist has been believed since the earliest days of the Church. Consider Ignatius, third bishop of Antioch, and one who knew Polycarp (the disciple of the Apostle John):
“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead.” - “Letter to the Smyrnaeans”, paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D
“I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed.” - “Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.
Or how about Justin Martyr, born a pagan, yet converted and became a prolific defender and apologist for Christianity:
“This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.” - “First Apology”, Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.
Or how about Irenaeus, second bishop of Lyons, and a student of Polycarp:
“For just as the bread which comes from the earth, having received the invocation of God, is no longer ordinary bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so our bodies, having received the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, because they have the hope of the resurrection.” - “Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely named Gnosis”. Book 4:18 4-5, circa 180 A.D.
Or how about the Didache, which 2nd century Christians used as a reference for catechesis:
“Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too the saying of the Lord is applicable: ‘Do not give to dogs what is sacred’”. - Ch. 9:5
Again: I need not twist anything. There would be no point; indeed, why would the Apostles and their disciples feel the need to speak so strongly of Christ being present in the Eucharist if they did not believe it to be true?
John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus of SPIRITUAL birth Nicodemus tried to focus upon the carnal, just as the seekers after signs did in John 6. You assume Nic didn't get it. Did you know he paid for the spices and ointments to be used when the women went to the tomb?
So you still conclude that Jesus established His New Covenant by violating the very Laws He says will not pass away. And pleading to the ECF is not going to commend that. As to trying to make Polycarp your expert witness. He did not mention such a specific in his extensive letter to the Philadelphians. And the bread taken in the Remembrance is the metaphor for the real body Jesus sacrificed on the Cross for us. It is assumed by modern Catholics that Polycarp believed he ingested the real flesh and blood of Jesus, rather than eating the bread and sipping the wine, assenting to the Grace of God made available to us by the ultimate sacrifice for us, proclaimed every time we break the bread and sip the wine IN REMEMBRANCE.
Because the catholic church has crafted a powerful org with a priesthood to empower it the more, it is not unlikely that the meaning of ECFs can be skewed to support fabricated dogmas and doctrines. I still ask you would God establish His New Covenant violating His own Laws against eating real human flesh and drinking real blood as the foundational Truth for this new covenant? ... Perhaps Mrs Don-o can help you with that one ...
Jesus assured His disciples that where two or more are gathered in His name, there is He in the mist of them ... His real Presence but not sensed directly by those limited to three variables of space and one of time. Your religion teaches people that The Real Presence of Jesus in the Mass is to have people violate the Laws of God against eating human flesh and drinking blood. These Jesus took to the Cross for us and for our salvation, not for a happy meal a priesthood can dole at a ritual meant to show the magic power of the catholic priesthood.
BTQ, Jesus said that as often as we take the bread and wine symbolizing His sacrifice for us we are to do it in REMEMBRANCE. HE did not tell His disciples to do it often or as often as possible so the striving chain seeking salvation will not be broken. Yet that is the emphasis catholiciism places upon the Mass. FRiend, that empowers the org, more than the adherents. The many times per week some here take Mass is a point of pride they are eager to share when questioned too closely about the vagaries of catholiciism.
Meant to ping you. ,,, The REAL Presence of Jesus at the gathering to partake in the Remembrance is to be ‘transubstantiated into a wheat wafer’ as He stands there in the midst of believers gathered in His name, according to the religion of catholiciism. What a spectacle that congers, Jesus standing in the midst of people taught to violate the laws of God against eating real human flesh and drinking blood of a living being!
(Also Mark 9:4 and Luke 9:30.)
This shows that whether you are resurrected at that particular moment in time or now, (Elijah was, Moses wasn't), you are still alive, and still in heaven, your soul having passed on to is eternal reward.
You've got a PROBLEM; namely REINCARNATION.
(Matthew 11:13-14
13 "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
14"And if you care to accept it, he himself is Elijah, who was to come."
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