Posted on 08/20/2016 7:45:03 AM PDT by Salvation
Speculation on your part they would have remained with Him.
One can argue the reason they walked away would be His statements in 6:64-65 which would be more in line with the remainder of John 6:26-69.
If you want to take 6:53-57 as literal then you also have to take 6:35 as literal as well when Jesus says whoever comes to Him will not hunger nor thirst.
Do you get hungry? Thirsty?
I bet you had breakfast and lunch so far today and probably will have dinner in a bit.
So obviously Jesus is not talking about literally eating and drinking His flesh and blood. We have no passages in the NT that tell us the bread and wine are somehow transformed into literal flesh and blood.
Further, the whole concept of the Mass as a sacrifice goes against the NT where we are told His death was a ONE TIME sacrifice for our sins. The catholic mass is a continuation of the sacrifice based on catholicism's own writings.
If you want to make 6:53-57 literal you have to make John 4:7-14 literal also. This is the account of Jesus and the Samaritan woman.
13Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; 14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” John 4:13-14
Do you get thirsty?
Do you have a literal well of water that springs up in you?
No. Of course not.
Yes.
My opinion.
Based on Scripture, history, logic and the promises of Christ. Look at the energy spent on this thread alone arguing. We need a true, teaching Church.
Some are literal, some allegory, some parables, some history, etc.
Yes and when read in context one can determine which is which.
No doctrinal changes would be required to expel those who are lobbying for homosexuality in the Vatican’s upper echelons. All you need to do is obey the Apostle Paul’s exhortation, when he told the Corinthian church to disfellowship the two members who were practicing sexual immorality. It’s akin to Jesus throwing the money changers out of the temple. People are going to sin, but there are some ongoing sins, the Bible teaches us, that simply cannot be permitted inside the body of Christ/in our assemblies.
Also please note. It’s not a case of God disliking sin. God HATES sin. Sin is what put Jesus on the cross. A Christian stumbling and then repenting is one thing. But a person setting up a pro-homosexual lobby inside the church is altogether something else. The latter cannot and must not be tolerated. God cannot bless it, and life without God’s blessing is intolerable.
Yes and when read in context one can determine which is which.
The problem is many don’t and come up with confusing and false explanations.
That is why it can be helpful to understand the teachings of Jesus through His Catholic Church.
Christ needs NO filtration system. He was plain spoken and stated emphatically that HE, before any jot or tittle of the 'NEW' was ever put to plant fibers or animal skins, has foretold all things. Mark 13:23... The 'church' was never intended to be the object of worship. The traditions of man make Christ's teachings null and void. There is an error in the Roman program.
John 6 is NOT about the Last supper.
Did Jesus command people to break the Law?
If He did, then He was a Law breaker and therefore sinned.
It cannot mean literal flesh and blood because then He would not have been the sinless lamb of God who took away the sins of the world.
He Himself said that He came not to do away with the Law but to fulfill it. That would include NOT eating blood which was forbidden throughout Scripture.
It's the SPIRIT who gives life, the flesh is no help at all.
The prohibition against eating blood is one of the few prohibitions issued at the Council at Jerusalem by the Holy Spirit.
God cannot deny Himself and has not changed His mind about eating blood.
Don't eat the blood, the life is in the blood
Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life , that is, its blood.
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood.”
Leviticus 7:26-27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.”
Leviticus 17:10-14 “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.
“Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.
Leviticus 19:26 “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.
Deuteronomy 12:16 Only you shall not eat the blood ; you shall pour it out on the earth like water.
Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life , and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.
Deuteronomy 15:23 Only you shall not eat its blood; you shall pour it out on the ground like water.
Acts 15:12-29 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’
Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter:
“The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
Matthew 26:29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Mark 14:25 Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
Luke 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Jesus Himself here tells us that it's not by eating that life is given. It's by the Spirit.
Scripture.
Sad that you think it's opinion and an inconsequential protest.
Speak volumes about the Catholic mindset and reinforces that the Catholic church discourages Scripture reading.
I cannot fathom the mind set that takes the very words of God Himself so lightly.
Thank you for your comments even if I disagree.
Protestants and Catholics both believe that God has revealed himself to man over the course of human history, culminating in his ultimate self-revelation in Jesus Christ. But whereas Catholics believe that Christ founded a visible Church—which subsists in the Catholic Church—and has protected its doctrines from error, Protestants reject the notion of ecclesial infallibility, maintaining that no person, church, or denomination has been preserved from error in its teachings. Which means that anyone could be wrong, and no person or institution can be trusted with speaking the truth of divine revelation without error.
I truly believe the Catholic Church’s mission is to lead everyone to salvation with God. The Catholic Church is not an object of worship, but rather offers the Sacraments and the teachings of Jesus. Jesus instructed the Apostles to go forth preach and baptize all nations. The Catholic Church continues to do so.
Over the last 2000 years there have been many heresies and some followers left the Catholic Church to go their way. This has continued to this day, yet the Catholic Church is strong and weathers the criticism with over a billion members.
Christ has promised to be with the Church until the end of time and to make sure that we do not err in doctrine.
The protestants and former Catholics have left the doctrine of the Catholic Church and rely on their personal opinions and they reject some of the teachings of Jesus and the Bible (even though they proclaim loudly about sola scripture and their interpretation is correct.
While everyone is entitled to their belief and religious affiliation, I highly recommend the Catholic Church’s ability to lead one to eternal life with God through Mass and the Sacraments.
Consider the entire Church. Calvin seemingly recognizes that in condemning Catholic Eucharistic views as Satanic, he was making war on the whole Church throughout history.
Now remember what Christ promised about how the gates of Hell wouldn’t overcome the Church (Matthew 16:17-19); about how “he who hears the word and understands it […] indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty” (Matthew 13:23). Remember also what the Scriptures say about how if Christ is the true Messiah, the faith won’t simply die out within a few years, and that if it does, it shows Jesus isn’t the true Christ (Acts 5:35-39).
Feel free to visit a Catholic Church and experience some of the Catholic faith in Christ.
If the John 6 passage is to be literal, then ALL of it should be taken literally, not just the parts you like.
That means that people who literally eat the body and blood of Jesus literally never die.
I've yet to meet that 2,000 year old Catholic.
Even Peter died.
Do you have a literal living well springing up inside you?
The roman catholic is the one who takes the plain reading of the text and reads something into it that's not there.
We see examples of this eisegesis practiced by rome with the Eucharist, the Mass, the worship of Mary, the indulgences, purgatory, etc.
We see it in the Word. We don't see it in the "tradition" of the roman catholic church that has to pick and choose which writings of the ECFs they want to believe.
We can understand the teachings of Christ through His catholic (ekklesia, the body of believers) church. Not what comes from.
That was spoken to the 72 Jesus sent out into the Jewish towns.
He was speaking to the Jews, not to the church.
And as we've been told by another Catholic FReeper, what Jesus said to the Jews doesn't apply to the church.
So every priest and bishop, and pope is speaking the words of Jesus? If they are not in error, then why the differences between the Roman church and the EO?
You do realize that the EO claim that THEY are the original church and that the Roman rite is the one in schism.
So who's right and who is in error? Since they both make contradictory claims, they both can't be right. Which one is right then and why?
That would be a *yes*.
One can dream.....
Can you explain what this sentence means?
No where in the NT are we told to place our trust in the Mass. Which, as has been explained numerous times is in contradiction of the Word.
A comparison of the false doctrine of the Mass is contrasted with Hebrews. Only one of these is correct.
| roman catholicism; John O Brien, Faith of Millions on the mass | Hebrews 9:24-28 |
| When the priest pronounces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the Victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of monarchs and emperors: it is greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. Indeed it is greater even than the power of the Virgin Mary. While the Blessed Virgin was the human agency by which Christ became incarnate a single time, the priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of man—not once but a thousand times! The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest’s command. | 24For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. |
Jesus never promised to protect any church from error.
God does not guarantee ANYONE to be free of error, which is why we must be on guard against it.
Paul warns us over and over to be aware of false teachers and be on the lookout for those who sneak into the church.
The seven churches in Revelation are proof that no church is immune to error.
What keeps us from error is SCRIPTURE and THAT is the only sure Truth that we have.
Are there differences of interpretation of some passages? Yes. And often it is of no consequence. There are areas which Paul called *disputable matters* (Romans 14).
Lockstep adherence to church doctrine is not a requirement for salvation or growth in Christ. God allows for leeway in many areas.
Jesus never appointed any one church to be the head over all the other, to which all the others must be accountable.
There are many churches to which Paul wrote and never once did he tell the others to submit to one head church or church leader.
Sorry, yes. I mistyped and left off the past tense “d” on the word “experience”.
We all have experienced Catholicism abundantly on FR for many years. I have become well acquainted with the religious utterances of Msgr. Charles Pope and have experienced much of Catholicism from him and those who repeatedly post Pope’s religious articles or whatever they are. We non-Catholics on FR are heavily experienced in Catholics and Catholicism and their various positions on various topics.
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