Posted on 02/20/2017 5:31:52 AM PST by metmom
It in no way is a reflection of His omniscience.
Just because He fore knows everything, doesn’t mean that he’s made it happen.
There are things my kids do and I know them well enough to know what they are going to choose. And I’m not anywhere near omniscient nor omnipotent and my knowing does not make them do it. But I’m still right cause I know them well enough.
You may have an idea of what your children might do, but they could surprise you, or other events prevent them from doing what you expected. Is God ever surprised?
Paul couples foreknowledge with predestination. I have no reason to doubt him.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Acts 17:24-31 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.
And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
I'm going to be doing a study on what Scripture says God's will is and see what verses I can find that talk about it.
The problem I see with the idea that you can't thwart God's will is that if everything that happens is His will, then that makes Him responsible for for all the evil in the world.
Can someone honestly say that ISIS burning people alive, abortion, homosexuality, the sin we commit every day is God's will for us and under His control? I can't go there.
Every command that God gives us is an expression of His will for us.
And yet the reality is that in effect, His will is thwarted every day.
Does that mean He's not omnipotent? I don't think it does.
The only way I see it being an affront to His omnipotence is if He Himself controlled every thought, every action, every decision, everything in this entire universe. If He did, then no, no one would be able to resist His will.
However, He did give man dominion over the earth. He decided to give him a measure of control over what happens here. Would that not also be an expression of His will?
I am not trying to make light of this in the least but since I see a creation in rebellion against God, and what I understand of the nature of God and His desire for the best for us as He has revealed it to us, I don't see that mankind going against His will means He's not omnipotent.
Of the Perseverance of the Saints
Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation
Grace and Peace
True. Jesus is clear that God draws us.
I don't believe in *free will* as we are not a free, uninfluenced being who can make choices without external influences brought to bear on us.
But for some reason, God worked it out that while it's all Him in drawing us to Himself, we have the choice to make.
Choose ye this day whom you would serve...(Josh 1:9
We are admonished continually to choose. I can't see God commanding us something that we are incapable of doing. Even if we have to have His Help in doing it.
Love isn't love unless it's freely given.
If God wanted robots, He could have made us all so that we had not choice. But then we'd be like animals operating by instinct.
That's not the situation I see presented in Scripture in how He has related with mankind throughout history.
So either God chooses and we are secure in our election, or we choose, and have the ability to both follow or walk away.
Or we choose and He secures us in that choice, protecting us from ourselves.
When I am in Christ, I am a new creation, the old is gone, the new has come, I have died in Christ.
I do not see that new nature choosing to reject God.
Yes, He knew what the outcome would be, and yes, He is always in control, but that doesn’t mean He actively controlled the actions of each person involved.
Romans 3:10-12 (NASB)
as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
How do we go from there to understanding without a change of nature? Who changes our nature, and when?
Ah, but that is not what I said. I firmly believe that God is in control, but we are responsible.
Romans 8:28-31 (NASB, with emphasis)
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
The Holy Spirit, of course.
He’s the one who does the enlightening.
The Holy spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.
But if God does the actual choosing and none can resist that, then that means that he has already decided to send people to hell never having given them the opportunity to not.
I see that in conflict with the passages in 2 Peter and Acts 17 where he commands all men everywhere to repent. If He commands it, then He must be the one who enables all men to avail themselves of the option to obey.
I know this flies in the face of Calvinism, I have trouble wrapping my mind around the idea that God would command us to do something, not give us the ability or choice, and then penalize those for not doing what they are incapable of doing.
You might as well punish a baby for not being able to drive a car.
I do not see that as being in the character of a God who loves us and desires to have us in right relationship with Him.
He created mankind for fellowship with Himself. That’s His desire for us. Hell was created for the devil and his angels. And I don’t see anything in Scripture that indicates that was part of God’s original intent for mankind.
All through the OT God pleads and provides opportunity after opportunity for people to repent and turn back to Him and yet they don’t.
They love their sin too much.
If you’ll excuse me for a while, It’s a stunningly gorgeous day out, as much as it can be in Feb in CNY, and I have laundry to hang out and a car to clean, and a house to clean and air out while I still have the opportunity. (Supposed to rain later)
See post 262. Paul addressed that question.
Paul couples foreknowledge with predestination. I have no reason to doubt him.
Yes, God foreknew who would accept His gift of Jesus if offered to them and those He DID predestine to save. That's why our salvation is secure.
But that said, I do not see it as God Himself CHOOSING who to save in the first place.
More like, *OK since you are willing to follow me and submit to Jesus and repent from your sin, I will choose to make sure you that you are saved, going to spend eternity in heaven instead of hell where your sins would have sent you.*
So God is choosing to save those He foreknew would respond.
The wording is the same but the meaning is different.
OK, NOW I'm out.....
There's a complication. Was God's will thwarted in the garden?
:)
Even so, all logic, and observable fact, indicate He leaves it to the individual to decide. I feel so strongly about that, I don't see how I would ever change my opinion - but that's just me.
Does God make mistakes? Has He ever reversed his handiwork?
Einstein believed the Almighty doesn't play dice. I'm not so sure, perhaps not with the cosmos, or physical world, but at least when it comes to the creation of beings, in His own image, we see the element of chance present.
We ourselves practice the art of releasing our creations, our children, into a world fraught with danger - for who could ever keep them locked away for their entire lives?
For whatever reason, this world contains elements of risk/danger - that's unmistakable.
No. See post 262.
Let me make sure I understand: Are you saying God is not omniscient?
The problem is that in Romans 8:28-31, Paul, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, revealed that which is not observable, but must be take by faith, namely:
"... we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?"
So, one question I have asked earlier, and will ask again, is will we have unfettered free will in Heaven, and if not, doesn't that make us lesser in Heaven than on earth?
We ourselves practice the art of releasing our creations, our children, into a world fraught with danger - for who could ever keep them locked away for their entire lives?
Let me repeat myself: Are you saying God is not omniscient?
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