Here Is What Pope Francis Told Crying Boy Who Asked Whether His Atheist Father Is in Heaven

Christian Post ^ | 04/20/2018 | Stoyan Zaimov

[Mrs. Don-o]

"I take it your answer is no, that you will not throw out your idols and stop praying to them."

That's your opinion, not mine. It's not what I said. The evidence I offered about giving honor (to humans) to whom honor is due, is a significant part of the Biblical testimony. You can ignore Biblical examples of honor, but you can't refute them.

Second, it's a tendentious assertion to insist that *I'm* saying *I* will not throw out "idols." That statues are "idols" is the very point you couldn't support with logic or evidence, so now you're just taking it as a given. You can't prove a thing by assertion.

It's like Rachel Maddow asserting "Oh, you're for Trump; I take it your answer is, that you like voting for racists." Since Maddow hasn't proven that Trump *is* a racist, therefore her assertion fails.

[ealgeone]

The Jews in the OT were doing the same thing with their “statues” of Baal. They were justifying their worship of those “statues” in their worship just as Roman Catholics do with Mary. There is no difference.

[Mrs. Don-o]

That, my friend, is historically and logically rubbish.

The worship of statues of Baal was Latria (adoration as to the Supreme Being.) Baal-worshippers never "claimed" that what they doing was not adoration. The intent is key: and their intent was to worship a false god, a rival to YHWH.

A more accurate analogy would be that the Jews in the OT who bowed to their prophets, priests, kings and queens, were doing what Catholics are doing with regard to the saints, including Mary.

Now here’s an illustrative episode:

1 Kings 2:19
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.

He bowed to her. He seated her on a throne. He placed her at his right hand.

Does that mean she’s equal to God? No. Does it even mean she's equal to the King? No. It means he’s pleased to show her a high and reverent respect, because of her royal dignity, her relationship as Queen Mother.

As our mindset gets flatter, shallower and more secular, further and further from traditional custom and culture, it gets harder to grasp what was once the universal language of physical gesture (the salute, the tip of the hat, the bow, the genuflection, the handclasp, the curtsy, the kiss) and put each expression in its proper perspective.

The life of honor is foreign to you (to us all, in 21st century America), and consequently, we often do not understand the gestures,the language of honor.

Most of today's people would be aghast, or at least uncomfortable, to see David prostrating to Saul; Abigail prostrating to David; Saul bowed to the ground in front of Samuel. Even less would secular people understand prostrating before an holy object or a holy place: the bronze seraph on the pole, the Ark of the Covenant or the Holy City of Jerusalem.

It's not idolatry. It's not the adoration of a man, a snake, a box or a city. It's a Biblical gesture of reverent respect.

[ealgeone]

>>"I take it your answer is no, that you will not throw out your idols and stop praying to them."<<

That's your opinion, not mine. It's not what I said.

Ok...then...what's your answer?

Yes or no?

The evidence I offered about giving honor (to humans) to whom honor is due, is a significant part of the Biblical testimony. You can ignore Biblical examples of honor, but you can't refute them.

Offered and refuted using the New Testament....unless you want to live in the OT.

That statues are "idols" is the very point you couldn't support with logic or evidence, so now you're just taking it as a given. You can't prove a thing by assertion.

How many do you want?

[ealgeone]

That, my friend, is historically and logically rubbish.

I would imagine the Jews would have made just as an impassioned denial of the facts as the Roman Catholic is doing.

The worship of statues of Baal was Latria (adoration as to the Supreme Being.) Baal-worshippers never "claimed" that what they doing was not adoration. The intent is key: and their intent was to worship a false god, a rival to YHWH.

But that is exactly what Rome has done with Mary....they've elevated her to a godlike status.

Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62) For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of:	New Testament
Advocate	My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2 NASB
Auxiliatrix [Latin for helper, aide]	"But the Helper [paraklétos, GR, (a) an advocate, intercessor, (b) a consoler, comforter, helper, (c) Paraclete.], the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. John 14:26 NASB
Mediatrix [earliest reference is 4th century as applied to Mary]	5For there is one God, and one mediator [mesités, GR, properly, an arbitrator ("mediator"), guaranteeing the performance of all the terms stipulated in a covenant (agreement). In the NT this is only applied to Christ] also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 1 Timothy 2:5-6 NASB

Bible quotes from NASB

RCC position on Mary from https://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm In August 1996, a Mariological Congress was held in Częstochowa, Poland, where a commission was established in response to a request of the Holy See. The congress sought the opinion of scholars present there regarding the possibility of proposing a fifth Marian dogma on Mary as Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate.

The commission unanimously declared that it was not opportune, voting 23-0 against the proposed

It is the Roman Catholic who has said Mary is necessary for salvation in contradiction of the New Testament.

You can try and keep justifying your idolatry but it will fail each and every time.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You are missing that God, the Unconditional and Essential Cause, acts through conditional and secondary causes.

If I advocate for you, pray for you, intercede for you, I am not taking the place of God or of Christ. I am acting as a secondary advocate.

That whole theology of the Body of Christ (all of us taking up the cross, all of us cooperating in saving acts) seems poorly developed or entirely absent in your scheme of things. To Catholics, the idea of creaturely cooperation --- as members of the Body --- is far more prominent, as explained both by Paul and by Christ Himself.

Mary's role is entirely incomprehensible to a person who does not see that we are all Advocates, all Auxiliaries, all Mediators, in Christ. And only in Christ.

Thus you assume that Mary "advocating" is seen as a rival to Christ. No. Not a rival. A co-worker.

This theme is so strong in Paul. It's how he identified fellow Christians:

Greet Prisca and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ ... Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you... Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys.... Greet those workers in the Lord, Tryphaena and Tryphosa. Greet the beloved Persis, who has worked hard in the Lord... For we are God’s co-workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

If you don't "get" that we are co-working in the works of salvation, you don't "get" Paul, or Mary, or Jesus.

[ealgeone]

Greet Prisca and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ ... Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you... Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys.... Greet those workers in the Lord, Tryphaena and Tryphosa. Greet the beloved Persis, who has worked hard in the Lord... For we are God’s co-workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Paul didn't have idols of those people. He did not bow down nor pray to them. He did rely upon them for his salvation. He wrote no consecration prayers to them. Nor did he ever attribute to them the things Rome has to Mary. Never.

If you don't "get" that we are co-working in the works of salvation, you don't "get" Paul, or Mary, or Jesus.

You're clouded and misled by your Roman Catholic upbringing.

If I advocate for you, pray for you, intercede for you, I am not taking the place of God or of Christ. I am acting as a secondary advocate.

When we pray TO God yes.The NT is clear....we pray to God on behalf of each other....we pray to the Creator...not the created.

That whole theology of the Body of Christ (all of us taking up the cross, all of us cooperating in saving acts) seems poorly developed or entirely absent in your scheme of things. To Catholics, the idea of creaturely cooperation --- as members of the Body --- is far more prominent, as explained both by Paul and by Christ Himself.

Perhaps because it isn't evidenced in the New Testament.

Mary's role is entirely incomprehensible to a person who does not see that we are all Advocates, all Auxiliaries, all Mediators, in Christ. And only in Christ.

Perhaps because it is not evidenced in the New Testament. I highly question the "and only in Christ" part of your statement based on much of the Roman Catholic writings on this topic.....only through Mary! is repeated often in Roman Catholicism.

And it is Rome that has formally invoked only Mary of all the created with those titles....equating her to Christ.

You yourself are a prime example. You will not toss out your idols of Mary and renounce the Hail Mary or commit to praying to ONLY God.

If the worship of Mary were removed from Roman Catholicism it would collapse.