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Diocese too liberal, book says [Supports Paid Pro-Homosexual Psychologist}
The Tribune Democrat ^ | 5/5/02 | SUSAN EVANS

Posted on 05/05/2002 2:44:56 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM

Diocese too liberal, book says

By SUSAN EVANS, The TRIBUNE-DEMOCRAT May 05, 2002

A controversial new book names the Altoona-Johnstown Roman Catholic Diocese as one of many dioceses that turns away qualified candidates for the priesthood in favor of a “gay subculture” and threatens the Church with dangerous reforms.

The book criticizes a State College psychologist who screens candidates for the diocese, saying his view of homosexuality is too liberal.

In response, the diocese says the author never contacted the diocese to verify any facts, and that the author lacks credibility.

The psychologist says the characterization is false, the author is a hate-monger, and his conservative critics are “the Catholic Taliban.”

The book “Goodbye! Good Men” describes a predatory “gay subculture” in some seminaries, and psychological screening that eliminates orthodox heterosexual males from the priesthood.

Written by conservative Cincinnati author Michael Rose and published by Regnery Publishing Inc. of Washington, the book contends “liberals are bringing corruption into the Catholic Church.”

Although penned before the burgeoning sex scandals, the book now has become a battle cry for conservative Catholics in this region.
It has also reignited a 2-year-old controversy within the Altoona-Johnstown diocese over the Church’s position on homosexuality and whether gays should be ordained.

And for one aspiring priest from Cambria County, it opens old wounds from his seminary experience, where he says he was sickened by the sexually decadent environment and criticized for being chaste.

Much of the controversy within the diocese centers around Penn State University.

Author Rose writes that David J. Brown, a clinical psychologist under contract with the Altoona-Johnstown diocese to screen candidates for the priesthood, has “gone out of his way to make the case that homosexuality is ‘perfectly normal’ and that ‘homosexuality is natural, not unnatural.’ ”

He criticizes Brown for telling the school board in State College that they were wrong to exclude homosexual speakers from Penn State.

“The fact that someone would pose such an argument is not news itself. But when such a man, whose views are publicly known, is contracted to screen applicants for the seminary, what is remarkable is the obvious incompatibility,” the book says.

In a telephone interview form his State College office, Brown said he did testify in favor of non-discrimination and non-harassment of homosexuals.

“I drew from the Bishop’s Pastoral Letter on the topic, and I expressed the opinion that Jesus would be appalled at such bigotry.”

Rose is “trying to reconfigure the current sex scandal into an anti-homosexual crusade. It’s like anti-Semitism,” he said.

“Part of Rose’s central thesis is that ultra-liberals and gays have taken over the process of becoming a priest, and that I only give liberals or gays a recommendation. That’s false and paranoid,” Brown said. “These people are pathologically homophobic, and the goal of local conservative Catholics is to have the bishop terminate my work.

“They are the local Catholic Taliban. They insist on their point of view. They are relentless, mean-spirited and punitive,” he said.

Catholic conservative George Foster strongly disagrees:

“Dr. Brown’s attitude explains the current crisis in the Church today.”

Critic of modernism

Foster, an orthodox activist who grew up in Cambria County and is now an Altoona businessman, has been a vocal critic of the modernism movement in the Church.

The State College controversy two years ago is still a serious issue with him, and so is Brown.

Foster is conservative in the sense that he believes the Church must adhere literally to Vatican teachings.

Brown’s and other Church leaders’ views on homosexuality differ from official Church doctrine.

Foster cites the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which says:

“Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that ‘homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.’ They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.”

The Catechism refers to homosexuality as an “inclination which is objectively disordered.”

Brown and others who say that homosexuality is natural go against Church teaching, Foster said.

“The bishop has been notified that Dr. Brown is on record against the traditional teaching of the Church. He’s not one who supports all of the teachings of the Church, and that destroys the Vatican’s goal that all must promote the correct moral teachings.”

Foster and conservative Catholics who were interviewed by The Tribune-Democrat say gays should not be priests.

“What’s worried me the most is all the talk on how we address the current issue of pedophilia, but our talk has been too narrow. The bigger issue is of homosexuality, but it’s a political hot button that many try to avoid,” he said.

Foster views the book “Goodbye! Good Men” as accurate in portraying the problems with homosexuality and with orthodox heterosexuals being screened out of the priesthood.

Foster takes issue with Brown’s characterization of conservative Catholics as “The Catholic Taliban’’ or “homophobic.”

“In the Catholic Church, the priesthood is a fraternity of men. The Church cannot condone men who have sexual inclinations toward each other sitting together. Numerous priests have come out and stated that the problems they’re seeing now revolve around homosexual priests,” he said.

“Yes, people say that’s homophobic. But that’s laughable. My responsibilities as a Christian, as a Catholic, are to speak to people about the truth. You want to do it in a loving manner, but you don’t want to change the Church’s teachings to do it.

“The Church has always taught that there should not be ‘unjust’ discrimination. But discrimination is not always a bad thing. In the matter of homosexuality, you would never advocate an alcoholic to be a bartender. Nor would I say a drug user should be a pharmacist. Where we’re dealing with a fraternity of men, you don’t place them into a situation where their weaknesses could be worked on.”
Brown supported

Diocese spokeswoman Sister Mary Parks defends Brown.

“When he asks candidates questions, he’s trying to see where they’re coming from. He may ask them from any ideological standpoint, to see what their reaction would be. A pastor must be flexible and open to all people who come to him,” she said.

“Some of these people who have questioned Dr. Brown have also questioned our own bishop,” she said.

One of those is Foster and fellow conservatives.

They take issue with Bishop Joseph Adamec’s pastoral statement on homosexuality, in which he did not strictly quote the Catechism and said the Catechism term “objective disorder” may “sound harsh.”

Foster says that’s not a tiny issue.

“Our diocese is representative of the nation as a whole. In Florida, a bishop resigned because he was a practicing homosexual. In Philadelphia, homosexuals are banned from entering the priesthood. In our diocese, people with problems with homosexuality have been promoted,” he said.

Foster and his conservative colleagues’ position mirrors the Vatican’s.

The chief spokesman for the Vatican says the Church must respond to the pedophilia scandal by ceasing to ordain gay men.

“People with these inclinations just cannot be ordained,” said Joaquin Navarro-Valls.     

The Vatican also is on record as wanting enforcement of a 1961 document from the Sacred Congregation for Religious that prohibits the admission of homosexuals to the diocesan priesthood and religious orders.

The Archdiocese of Philadelphia rejects candidates for the priesthood who say they are gay and expels any seminarian found to be an active homosexual.

The national debate hits home for one young man.

Speaking on the condition of anonymity, because he still aspires to become a priest and fears retribution, this student finds the controversial book to be very credible.

At the first seminary he attended, he said he was shocked to see openly gay activity.

“It sickened me because certain men were known to be couples. I was ‘checked out’ by others and told to ‘make sure I wasn’t alone with so and so because he’d come on to me.’ ”

The seminarian, from the Altoona-Johnstown Diocese, said the anecdotes in the book rang true.

“I watched one guy get another guy drunk and take him back to his room. He was very predatory. I felt I was illegitimized by these people.

“The problem is that they’re letting people into seminaries whose lifestyle defies Church teachings. The number of predators might be small, but they shouldn’t have been there at all.

“The administration is afraid to do anything, because it will tick off the bishop. They can’t afford to lose students. It’s a numbers game,” he said.

He said that his conservative views against women being ordained almost caused him to be screened out of the priesthood. He said Brown interviewed him and called him “rigid.”

Brown says he does not remember any such interview, and cannot respond to an anonymous accusation.

Penn State link

Throughout interviews with both conservatives and diocese officials, the Penn State incidents crop up again and again.

In October 2000, a ceremony titled “A Service of Affirmation of the Human Dignity of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender People” was held in Eisenhower Chapel.

The Rev. Joseph Hlubik, Penn State Catholic Community campus minister, said that although some Bible passages speak negatively of homosexuality, there are positive images as well.

Later that month he wrote an essay saying, “Fortunately, with a few positive thought-provoking image of gays portrayed on television and movies and maybe even encounters with gays in our own lives, it is becoming common enough to be a topic of discussion.”

Conservative Catholics, including a priest, were outraged and wrote a response, saying Hlubik’s statements were contrary to the faith. In an ad in a State College newspaper, they said, “If they assert their homosexuality, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when irrational and violent acts increase.”

That ad elicited a response from diocese spokeswoman Parks, who said it was “highly inappropriate” for a priest to criticize another.

Brown criticized the ad for its “homophobic negativity,” and the ad also was criticized by Mary McClanahan, a Penn State staff psychologist.

She said, “The American Psychiatric Association has recognized for more than a quarter of a century that being lesbian, gay or bisexual indicates no disorder.”

Foster and his conservative colleagues today point to new studies they say give Rose’s book credibility and discredit more liberal thinking.

News reports last week described research by Judith Reisman, who used numbers from 1992 U.S. Statistic Abstracts. She found that the gay population has a large subset that “commits multiple, repeated sex offenses.”

Mixed messages

Another outspoken conservative in the diocese is a former employee.

Brian Barcaro, who edits the Diocese Report Web site, says the issues are doctrinal.

Barcaro and the diocese parted company on bad terms, with the diocese saying he was fired and Barcaro saying he left for personal reasons.

His view is that the Church’s troubles today stem from too many dioceses that “refuse to follow the Church’s teachings.

“At one point it was said to be OK for priests at Penn State to be involved with homosexual groups. I was told to shut up. I said that if I’m raising money for the diocese, I need to follow Church teachings. We did not separate on good terms.

“There are problems in the Church, and there are problems in the diocese,” he said during an interview with The Tribune-Democrat.

“There’s a lack of doctrinal enforcement.”

Foster agrees.

“What keeps me comfortable is that I know what’s right and wrong. It isn’t a problem with improper Church teachings. It’s a problem with the teaching not being passed on. The solution now is to handle the problem and not be embarrassed.”

A neutral viewpoint comes from devout Catholic and Cambria County President Commissioner Fred Soisson.

Once aspiring to be a priest, he began with what was then a high school program.

“The problem was that this is too early a time to make that decision. A lot of young men went in, but then matured and recognized that maybe they made the wrong decisions. Celibacy is unnatural, and to lead a celibate life, you must have a vocation.”

Soisson says his faith is not shaken by the sex scandals, and suspects that some complaints are false.

“The problem today is that the Church overlooked bad situations. Now, because of the media coverage, they can’t hide it anymore. They can no longer afford to sweep it under the table.”

©Tribune Democrat 2002



TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; davidjbrown; goodbyegoodmen; homosexualagenda; michaelrose
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To: sinkspur
BTW, let me just ask you point blank...do you think practicing homosexuals should be allowed to stay in the priesthood and/or enter the seminaries?
51 posted on 05/05/2002 7:49:56 PM PDT by B Knotts
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To: Domestic Church
Why didn't "I watched" hit the fire alarm...

Because they're treating the seminary like a frat party ... or some Mardi Gras gone wild where girls can be passed around like cave carne canapes?

I guess you can tell it was just a seminary by the way the predator neither shared nor had pix to pass around afterwards.

ANIMAL HOUSE IN PORN SHOCKER (Dartmouth)

52 posted on 05/05/2002 7:58:32 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: B Knotts
If only.
53 posted on 05/05/2002 8:12:25 PM PDT by tiki
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To: sinkspur
I've been trying to figure out just who your posts reminded me of. They seemed so familiar. Then I got it. You sound like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Born-Agains who are constantly slandering the Church, trying to convince me it is the whore of Babylon. I hope to God you aren't sharing you "enlightened" " progressive" views in your ministries.
54 posted on 05/05/2002 8:20:14 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: Jeff Chandler
I think sinkspur's a good guy; we just have some disagreements. I wouldn't disparage his personal character just because of those disagreements, no matter how frustrating he can be.
55 posted on 05/05/2002 8:25:12 PM PDT by B Knotts
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To: B Knotts
I'm not disparaging his personal character, I'm just stating what his posts remind me of. I am quite sincere. No insult intended. I've seen some very nice people use their positions in ministries of RCIA, marriage prep, Confirmation, etc. to spread misinformation and dissent, and I pray that is not happening in his case.
56 posted on 05/05/2002 8:30:48 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: B Knotts
do you think practicing homosexuals should be allowed to stay in the priesthood and/or enter the seminaries?

No to both. But, good luck on finding out who are the "practicing homosexuals" among ordained priests.

57 posted on 05/05/2002 9:07:32 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Jeff Chandler
You sound like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Born-Agains who are constantly slandering the Church, trying to convince me it is the whore of Babylon. I hope to God you aren't sharing you "enlightened" " progressive" views in your ministries.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

And, if you think I'm "slandering the Church", then you're galactically stupid.

I've been engaged in the RCIA and Engaged Couples ministry for seven years. Nobody seems to have a problem with my views.

Maybe you ought to contact BKnotts; he needs some snitches to roam the parishes in search of violators of canon law.

58 posted on 05/05/2002 9:11:55 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: B Knotts
The things I'm concerned about are the types of things talked about in this article, where diocesan officials are in direct disobedience to the Magisterium on doctrinal issues. I think that's somewhat important. Apparently, you disagree. So be it.

Frankly, I'd be more worried about the people who run through red lights six blocks up the street.

Maybe we could station some "inquisitors" up there to turn in license plate numbers to the Euless cops.

59 posted on 05/05/2002 9:16:01 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
I didn't say you were slandering the Church, and I won't call you galactically stupid, just someone who reads too quickly and infers more than is implied.
60 posted on 05/05/2002 9:34:01 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: sinkspur
Maybe you ought to contact BKnotts; he needs some snitches to roam the parishes in search of violators of canon law.

Is it too much to ask that the people responsible for the practice and formation of the Catholic Faith, adhere to the doctrines and laws of the Catholic Faith? Are traffic violations really more important to you than open dissention against the Church? Do you teach respect for the Church in your ministries, or do you teach them that "WE ARE THE CHURCH" and we should be able to make the rules? Inquiring minds want to know.

61 posted on 05/05/2002 9:42:13 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: Jeff Chandler
I've been engaged in the RCIA and Engaged Couples ministry for seven years.

By the way, do you teach those new Catholics that the Church aught to be ordaining married men, or are you repectful enough to keep dissenting opinions in check during your ministry? This is not an accusation, I really want to know. I've seen people teach all sorts of things to Initiates, sort of taking advantage of the opportunity to recruit people to their causes.

62 posted on 05/05/2002 9:50:10 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: patent; notwithstanding; JMJ333; Aunt Polgara; AgThorn; IM2Phat4U; toenail; MHGinTN...
Hi Folks,

This is going to be my final post to FRee Republic.

I've finally decided to call it quits, and devote more time to my family.

I've already had my Dr. Brian Kopp screen name account deleted. This is an account I set up as a joke several months ago for a fellow FReeper, which I never intended using further (no, I don't have any other screen names).

However, I just wanted to say so long, and let you all know how much I've enjoyed the friendship and fellowship of many fine people here.

May God Bless you all abundantly and have Mercy on us all.

Sincerely,

Dr. Brian Kopp

(I'll be having this account deleted too. Hold the Fort, Folks!)

63 posted on 05/05/2002 9:54:23 PM PDT by Doc Anonymous
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To: Doc Anonymous
Goodbye, doc. Take care of yourself. =)
64 posted on 05/05/2002 10:30:08 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Doc Anonymous
Good night, Doc.
65 posted on 05/05/2002 10:37:02 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: Doc Anonymous
Thanks for all the great articles you posted,for defending the pope and the Magisterium,for being an excellent,enthusiastic apologist,for trying to wake people up and for the wonderful short story you wrote and I read over on the religious thread.Thanks for giving so much of yourself for the Church and come back soon!!And finally and most important,your honesty and genuineness just shine.You are the only Freeper I know that uses his real name,so you're courageous too. Wow!!God Bless you and yours.
66 posted on 05/06/2002 12:12:51 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: Dumb_Ox
Considering Aquinas calls it the "unnatural vice," the alleged expert doesn't seem to have read him.

Considering that Aquinas doesn't mention homosexuality in animals (though he does mention bestiality), maybe the guy was thinking of some other Thomas Aquinas.

Thanks for the link.

67 posted on 05/06/2002 2:00:52 AM PDT by maryz
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To: St.Chuck
. . . am very reluctant to see any radical changes as being proposed by members of the laity.

Some of the laity are a lot louder than others; Shakespeare didn't call democracy "the many-headed monster" for nothing.

68 posted on 05/06/2002 2:04:03 AM PDT by maryz
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Joe-six-pack in the pews has not a clue, . . .

He also doesn't seem to go around stirring things up and making trouble. I always liked him.

69 posted on 05/06/2002 2:06:24 AM PDT by maryz
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To: maryz
St. Thomas himself, in the second book of the Summa Theologica, says that homosexuality is natural, not unnatural. And he also says homosexuality among animals is natural, not unnatural.

I'm no expert on the Summa, but if your intuition is that Dr. Brown is on crack, you'd be correct. The following is from a review by Paul Dietrich of the book, The Invention of Sodomy in the Christian Religion from the April 1998 edition of First Things:

Jordan is clearly more comfortable when considering the works of St. Albert the Great and St. Thomas Aquinas. His earlier study, Ordering Wisdom: The Hierarchy of Philosophical Discourses in Aquinas (1986), is a well-regarded contribution to the understanding of St. Thomas. For St. Albert homosexual intercourse is a sin against grace, reason, and nature. Jordan laments "Albert’s refusal to think coherently," that is, his citation of Arabic lore on most medical topics in contrast to his appeal to Christian moral teachings when it comes to homosexuality. Although Jordan rescues St. Thomas from the misreadings of other gay historians (such as John Boswell), he finds what he describes as "instabilities" in Thomas’ denunciation of sodomy as the unnameable vice that more than other sins is against nature and against God.

A close reading of several scholastic texts with an eye toward holes in the argument suffers from the same flaws as Jordan’s earlier treatment of monastic authors. Insufficient attention is paid to the historical and cultural contexts of these arguments. Why is it, asks Jordan, that so much energy is expended on denunciations of sodomy compared with the more lenient treatment of other sins in the medieval catalogue of vices, say, murder, usury, simony, or adultery?

Why, indeed. Medieval monastic and scholastic authors presumably had less pastoral experience than did the regular clergy with murder, adultery, and usury, or even with standard clerical sins such as simony, nicolaitism (clerical marriage), and concubinage. As members of male religious houses, however, Benedictine monks (like St. Peter Damian) had in common with Dominican friars (like Saints Albert and Thomas) a concern for the moral, spiritual, and psychological health of a same-sex religious community.

So Dr. Brown's understanding of St. Thomas' teaching is upside down regarding the desirability of ordaining priests with homosexual inclinations. You could knock me over with a feather.

70 posted on 05/06/2002 5:06:28 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: sinkspur
Maybe you ought to contact BKnotts; he needs some snitches to roam the parishes in search of violators of canon law.

This sort of debating tactic is beneath you.

71 posted on 05/06/2002 5:08:13 AM PDT by B Knotts
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To: Aquinasfan
So Dr. Brown's understanding of St. Thomas' teaching is upside down regarding the desirability of ordaining priests with homosexual inclinations. You could knock me over with a feather.

Surely Dr. Brown is likely only guilty of a simple misreading! Easy as anything to miss an "un-" in front of "-natural"!

72 posted on 05/06/2002 5:32:02 AM PDT by maryz
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
A controversial new book names the Altoona-Johnstown Roman Catholic Diocese as one of many dioceses that turns away qualified candidates for the priesthood in favor of a “gay subculture” and threatens the Church with dangerous reforms.

Get rid of the bishop for starters. Clean up the seminaries of homosexuals AND START TEACHING THE REAL CATHOLIC FAITH. YOU KNOW, WHAT'S FOUND IN THE CATECHISM.

73 posted on 05/06/2002 6:01:25 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
the book contends “liberals are bringing corruption into the Catholic Church.”

Uh, Yeah, I would say that's about right?!?! They'd make GOOD epicopalians.

74 posted on 05/06/2002 6:04:31 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Foster is conservative in the sense that he believes the Church must adhere literally to Vatican teachings.

Duh?

75 posted on 05/06/2002 6:05:38 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Brown said he did testify in favor of non-discrimination and non-harassment of homosexuals.

There will be no discrimination and no harassment. Throw them ALL out and there won't be any problem.

76 posted on 05/06/2002 6:13:13 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: Doc Anonymous
God Bless your work Brian....and you!
77 posted on 05/06/2002 6:37:39 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: history_matters
The seminaries in the U.S. are a byproduct of the American Academic culture and NOT traditional Catholic Culture. I blame the bishops, first and foremost, for allowing this to happen, with a close second to Catholic theologians. They allowed the culture to transform their faith rather than the faith transforming their culture. In other words, they BETRAYED the faith.

This is not just a Vatican II byproduct; this stuff began back in the '30s shortly after the Epicopalians declared contraception legitimate. Read McInnerney's "What went wrong with Vatican II". Their were many bishops at the council already weilding the modernist mantra, salivating at the mouth, ready to pounce on traditional Catholic teachings in favor of their modernist ideologies.

Should we be surprised at the present condition of our seminaries. The great majority of seminaries as well as Catholic colleges and universities have lost their Catholic identity. This is what our great Pope St. Pius X fought against and feared. I pray he intercedes for us now.

78 posted on 05/06/2002 6:46:06 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: Renatus
Renatus,
Where do Permanent Deacons fit into all of this? They are ordained clergy and part of the hierarchy?!
79 posted on 05/06/2002 6:53:40 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
But this is the first real break we've had in the mainstream media within our diocese.

Great work!

80 posted on 05/06/2002 6:59:08 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Renatus
Am going to visit the graves of my ancestors at St. Michael's Cemetery in Loretto and the cemetery in Conawego in early August. Hope I live that long.

I've always believed this to be a very virtuous and noble practice; something our consumeristic culture has BURIED and labeled archaic. I will pray that you make it there and then some.

God Bless,
TM

81 posted on 05/06/2002 7:01:02 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: Jeff Chandler
By the way, do you teach those new Catholics that the Church aught to be ordaining married men, or are you repectful enough to keep dissenting opinions in check during your ministry?

No. I bring in the married ex-Episcopalian priest convert from the neighboring parish and let him address the issue. He speaks about the charism of celibacy, and how his priesthood is lived out in the married state.

82 posted on 05/06/2002 7:23:49 AM PDT by sinkspur
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To: ThomasMore
Their were many bishops at the council already weilding the modernist mantra, salivating at the mouth, ready to pounce on traditional Catholic teachings in favor of their modernist ideologies.

Every Catholic should read On the Doctrines of the Modernists. If only people had listened in 1907. If only people would listen today. My liberal pastor hates it, for obvious reasons. A small sample:

There has never been a time when this watchfulness of the supreme pastor was not necessary to the Catholic body, for owing to the efforts of the enemy of the human race, there have never been lacking "men speaking perverse things,"[1] "vain talkers and seducers,"[2] "erring and driving into error."[3] It must, however, be confessed that these latter days have witnessed a notable increase in the number of the enemies of the Cross of Christ, who, by arts entirely new and full of deceit, are striving to destroy the vital energy of the Church, and, as far as in them lies, utterly to subvert the very Kingdom of Christ...

4. It is one of the cleverest devices of the Modernists (as they are commonly and rightly called) to present their doctrines without order and systematic arrangement, in a scattered and disjointed manner, so as to make it appear as if their minds were in doubt or hesitation, whereas in reality they are quite fixed and steadfast. For this reason it will be of advantage, Venerable Brethren, to bring their teachings together here into one group, and to point out their interconnections, and thus to pass to an examination of the sources of the errors, and to prescribe remedies for averting the evil results.


83 posted on 05/06/2002 7:28:16 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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Comment #84 Removed by Moderator

To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Homosexual Priests: A Time for Truth
85 posted on 05/06/2002 7:47:40 AM PDT by EdReform
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To: sinkspur
If bishops and priests are supposed to "serve" the laity, why are they abusing their children? Why are cardinals living in palaces, and riding around in limousines and flying first class to Rome and staying in five star hotels once they get there?

You answer your own question, sink. A poster made the following statement:

THE BISHOP AND PRIEST IS CONFIGURED TO CHRIST AS HEAD AND SHEPHERD!!!!!!!!!!!!

You responded with:

"Yea, I know that. I learned that. It was ground into me."

The contempt you show for this most wonderful gift from God -the gift of the priesthood- is precisely indicative of the contempt many bishops and cardinals apparently seem to feel for this and other Church teachings. Church teaching, for them, just isn't hip enough, just isn't new enough. They want something that's exciting, something that isn't 'ground into them.'

And, so, they latch on to the exciting new theories in opposition to Rome, an attachment to wordly things, etc.

It's all quite sad, really.

86 posted on 05/06/2002 7:48:12 AM PDT by AlguyA
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To: Aquinasfan
"men speaking perverse things,"[1] "vain talkers and seducers,"[2] "erring and driving into error."[3]

Don't ya just love Pius X's candid fervor. He didn't mince words OR actions. BTW, he is the reason why I refer more to my 1913 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia that any other reference. I was fortunate enough to be able to find a complete set for $800. Excellant condition. They came out of a seminary. The internet is nice (New Advent), but those volumes are nicer to read and also impressive in my living room.

87 posted on 05/06/2002 8:29:20 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: AlguyA
The contempt you show for this most wonderful gift from God -the gift of the priesthood- is precisely indicative of the contempt many bishops and cardinals apparently seem to feel for this and other Church teachings.

Contempt for the priesthood?

Oh, I guess, in your either-or thinking, my support for optional celibacy in the priesthood must mean I hate the priesthood.

I'm just thankful you didn't call me Judas or something.

88 posted on 05/06/2002 9:27:20 AM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
"Contempt for the priesthood?

Oh, I guess, in your either-or thinking, my support for optional celibacy in the priesthood must mean I hate the priesthood.

I'm just thankful you didn't call me Judas or something."

Just to reiterate (since it seems you have a great fear one will call you names) a poster reminded you that:

"THE BISHOP AND PRIEST IS CONFIGURED TO CHRIST AS HEAD AND SHEPHERD!!!!!!!!!!!!"

And you responded with:

"Yea, I know that. I learned that. It was ground into me."

Read your own words, sink, and tell me how I'm supposed to infer anything other than contempt for the teaching that the Bishop and Priest is Configured to Christ as Head and Shepherd?

89 posted on 05/06/2002 10:10:58 AM PDT by AlguyA
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To: AlguyA
Read your own words, sink, and tell me how I'm supposed to infer anything other than contempt for the teaching that the Bishop and Priest is Configured to Christ as Head and Shepherd?

You can "infer" any damn thing you want.

What I said was, I learned it, I knew it. I believe it. Which is the truth. Next time I'll put some pretty adjectives in my sentences so you'll be happy.

90 posted on 05/06/2002 10:22:13 AM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sandyeggo; constitutiongirl; Aquinasfan; Antoninus
COPPER SUNDAY ALERT!

91 posted on 05/06/2002 2:26:57 PM PDT by history_matters
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To: Doc Anonymous
Good bye Brian. God bless you and yours. Keep the faith!
92 posted on 05/06/2002 2:30:17 PM PDT by history_matters
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To: ThomasMore
Don't ya just love Pius X's candid fervor. He didn't mince words OR actions.

There's a lot to be said for plain speaking. His writing is sooooooo refreshing.

BTW, he is the reason why I refer more to my 1913 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia that any other reference. I was fortunate enough to be able to find a complete set for $800.

A great treasure to pass along to your children some day. One of these days I'm going to get a hard cover Summa. Any advice there? New or used? What versions are the best?

93 posted on 05/06/2002 5:53:03 PM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
"pathologically homophobic"

I love this. Our 'scientific elites' think sodomy is normal and if you dare disagree with them, YOU have a mental problem. I think if I were in this guy's diocese, I'd be out protesting in front of his office at State College. He's a charlatan and an infiltrator and needs to have the heat cranked up on him until he runs away from the Church screaming like the evil spirits that Christ sent into a herd of swine.
94 posted on 05/06/2002 8:52:00 PM PDT by Antoninus
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To: sinkspur
Oh, I guess, in your either-or thinking, my support for optional celibacy in the priesthood must mean I hate the priesthood.

For heaven's sake! Where was celibacy mentioned in this article???? Johnny One-Note strikes again!
95 posted on 05/06/2002 9:04:29 PM PDT by Antoninus
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To: Antoninus
Where was celibacy mentioned in this article.

It wasn't mentioned in the article, but the poster to whom I responded mentioned it in one of his posts.

Read the whole thread.

96 posted on 05/06/2002 9:07:25 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Aquinasfan
I normally buy my books used. First, because they are out-of-print(most of them). And second, they are out-of-print, because the older they are the less of a chance they have of being tainted with modernist thought.
97 posted on 05/07/2002 6:35:27 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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