Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Unconditional Election (calvinism)vs. Bible Truth: "God...desires ALL men to be saved" 1Ti2:3,4
http://home.kscable.com/winfieldcofc/newspaper/03election.htm ^ | Clint Brown

Posted on 05/29/2002 7:49:02 PM PDT by xzins

Unconditional Election vs. Bible Truth

"God, our Savior... desires all men to be saved." (I Tim. 2:3,4)

Clint Brown

Logic dictates that any doctrine which implies a false doctrine is itself, false. The Calvinistic doctrine of Unconditional Particular Election implies an egregiously false doctrine, and is therefore, false. This doctrine, often called Predestination, is explained by one of its defenders as "the eternal decree of God, by which he has determined in himself, what he would have to become of every individual... For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damn-ation for others" [Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 1, p. 342].

The chief implication of this doctrine is that God is responsible for souls that are lost in hell. To remedy this heretical notion, Calvinists assert that God's choice is "based solely on His own good pleasure and sovereign will" [Steele & Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism (Presbyterian and Reformed Pub. Co.), p. 30].

Calvinistic predestination is actually a misapplication of the sovereignty of God. While God does have an immutable counsel (Heb. 6:17), He may not supercede the limitations set by His own moral nature (e.g., Heb. 6:18). The doctrine of Unconditional Election repudiates the single most profound act of the moral nature of God's will – the creation of mankind "in His image" (Gen. 1:26). Since man is "in His image," he possesses a real moral nature and is capable of making real moral choices that affect his real eternal destiny! But if God has arbitrarily predetermined every individual's ultimate destiny, we are essentially robots, incapable of affecting our eternal future.

God derives no pleasure from the service of automatons (cf. Amos 5:21-24). Rather, He desires a reciprocal love freely offered by His moral creatures. Of all physical creation, only mankind possesses the ability to respond to the loving grace of the Creator through the loving obedience of faith. Contrary to the indictment of God's justice provided by Calvinistic predestination, the Bible says that God desires all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4). Contrary to the heretical implication of Unconditional Election, God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9).

Though not all will be saved, the choice is yours.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: choice; preselection; toheaven; tohell; truth
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-93 next last

1 posted on 05/29/2002 7:49:02 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Corin Stormhands; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; ShadowAce; P-Marlowe; Revelation 911...
Bumping to all non-robots.

God is a God of Love. He desires ALL to be SAVED!!

2 posted on 05/29/2002 7:50:38 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Amen, from a Catholic sister.

God bless.

3 posted on 05/29/2002 8:19:22 PM PDT by Gophack
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Gophack; Corin Stormhands; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; ShadowAce; P-Marlowe...
Robots from calvin land study "free choice" in the bible :-)


4 posted on 05/29/2002 8:42:03 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: allend
The calvinist trinity:

Bubba, Calvie, and Augie :-)

6 posted on 05/29/2002 8:54:53 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Great cartoon. I thought it was a group that successfully resisted prevenient grace!
7 posted on 05/29/2002 8:58:51 PM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Robots from calvin land study "free choice" in the bible :-)

Amen!

8 posted on 05/29/2002 9:00:23 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Since man is "in His image," he possesses a real moral nature and is capable of making real moral choices that affect his real eternal destiny!

Exactly! God is a Person as is Man!

9 posted on 05/29/2002 9:02:18 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: drstevej
Yeah. I laughed out loud when I saw it. Given the discussion on robots and calvinism in the article, it seemed to fit.
10 posted on 05/29/2002 9:05:07 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Is Philip Schaff one of your heroes???

====

...The corresponding American revision committee which developed the American Standard Version of 1901 was headed by another liberal evolutionist, Philip Schaff. Most new versions since that time have adopted the same presuppositions as did those 19th century revisers. Schaff was twice tried for heresy by his denomination and taught at the very liberal Union Seminary. As chairman of the revision committee, Schaff not only was greatly influenced by Westcott and Hort, but also by the Unitarians Ezra Abbot and Joseph Thayer, of Harvard, as well as other liberals whom he placed on the committee.

11 posted on 05/29/2002 9:06:09 PM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: drstevej
Never heard of Schaff before. What did he believe?
12 posted on 05/29/2002 9:07:49 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: allend; fortheDeclaration
God gets no pleasure from the worship of robots. Amos says God wants those who CHOOSE righteousness to worship him. The passage implies both CHOOSING and NOT CHOOSING to obey God.

Amos 5 21 "I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies. 22 Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, [1] I will have no regard for them. 23 Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps. 24 But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!

13 posted on 05/29/2002 9:15:56 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: xzins
ROFL! Interesting comic there.
14 posted on 05/29/2002 10:48:52 PM PDT by The Grammarian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: xzins
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself. John 12:32
15 posted on 05/30/2002 12:06:50 AM PDT by Theresa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: xzins
God gets no pleasure from the worship of robots. Amos says God wants those who CHOOSE righteousness to worship him. The passage implies both CHOOSING and NOT CHOOSING to obey God. Amos 5 21 "I hate, I despise your religious feasts; I cannot stand your assemblies. 22 Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them. Though you bring choice fellowship offerings, [1] I will have no regard for them. 23 Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps. 24 But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!

Yes, but in His secret councils He really means....

16 posted on 05/30/2002 12:24:09 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: xzins
What a shallow article....this is an embarrassment for Arminianism.
17 posted on 05/30/2002 12:41:58 AM PDT by rwfromkansas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: allend
Read the context of the supposed "free will" passages. It really supports Calvinism. I have no interest to debate on it, but I am sure others would if you want.
18 posted on 05/30/2002 12:43:21 AM PDT by rwfromkansas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Theresa
I guess everybody is saved then if you take the Arminian way out and don't bother to look further than the modern meaning of these words and don't bother looking at things like context etc.
19 posted on 05/30/2002 12:45:43 AM PDT by rwfromkansas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: xzins
This is what I e-mailed the author (I am not too excited he brainwashed people by putting his article in the town newspaper either):

I just want to respond to your anti-Calvinist statement on your website.

You claim man is made in God's image even to this very day. How is this possible after the Fall? God and man are estranged. Man is "enslaved to sin," according to the NT. He can not even know the truth because he does not have the Holy Spirit and the truth of the Gospel is "spiritually discerned." Obviously, this puts a screw into free will since nobody could choose God, which is not very fair at all. I have not provided passage citations in my haste here, but you can find that by doing a concordance search online or with software.

I am not going to spend a long amount of time here. But, I will ask how anyone could believe in free will if it is God's will to save all as a first/easy glance at Scriptural texts seem to show? Going beyond, it is clear that such texts don't support that in the slightest, but if they did, it would mean God is a failure. We know throughout Scripture that God is NOT a failure and is able to accomplish his will. So maybe that is why in John Jesus only prayed at the Garden for those God gave him. Maybe that is why the Book of Life was written from the "foundation of the world." Maybe that is why we are said to be predestined several times in the NT. And maybe that is why Romans 9 says the potter has power over the clay, not the other way around.

Arminianism is exclusive. If you are an Arminian, you believe people have the opportunity to choose their salvation or reject it of their own free (I wonder where God said the Fall won't affect us anymore....any passages?) will. Thus, some folks were essentially "intelligent" enough to choose God, while the other dummies couldn't stop sinning. Of course you don't actually believe this, but it is an ultimate outcome of Arminianism theology...the exaltation of man because some were able to come to Christ and others didn't "get it." Arminians claim this is fair. I wonder how exactly. It doesn't seem very fair to me. However, Calvinism sets up two groups as well. But, this time it is based on GOD'S NEVER-FAILING AND PERFECT WILL. It is not based on the whim of man, which can be altered in the scheme of Arminianism if someone doesn't evangelize the right person at the exact and perfect moment. With Calvinism, simply the Gospel, you have God calling the shots having his Spirit come and rescue his elect. The two groups are formed by God's righteous act. The two groups are formed without any exaltation because one person was "smarter" than another to use "free will." Some Arminians will claim Calvinism is prideful because some are chosen and others get ignored. Well, I see Calvinism as expressing God's power and great mercy, but I also recognize that Calvinism, like all systems, can be perverted and I am sure some people (perhaps myself even), have sometimes gotten a bit puffed up and superior thinking they are better than the guy next door who was not predestined to salvation. But, I would say this: I am firmly set in a belief that the real driving force that comes out of Calvinism is not pride, but humility. To think that God would come and choose me over someone else should give one a lot to pause and ponder...and kiss the feet of the Son for.

My last point (I am not doing a big rebuttal, just trying to raise some issues here) is that Arminianism is what a baby Christian believes (like myself) since he knows no better. Eventually, some will come to Calvinism, while others stay in Arminianism. The Arminians, when debating, always have to look at what THEY perceived their salvation to be like, what THEY experienced, what THEY think about how predestination makes God look. On the other hand, the Calvinist looks to God. We aren't looking at what we think happened in salvation or we would be Arminian, too. We simply look to the Bible, see him say we couldn't choose him and so we were predestined, and we believe it (of course we also use some logic in defending it and explaining this Scripture). What else can we do when it comes to a God that brought us back from the grave????

Blessings in the Lord.

Sincerely,

Roy Waggoner

20 posted on 05/30/2002 1:59:49 AM PDT by rwfromkansas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: xzins
you are too hysterical - LOL - nice cartoon
22 posted on 05/30/2002 3:58:58 AM PDT by Revelation 911
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Goldhammer
I don't understand what attracts people to believe in Calvinistic predestination.

I believe that what attracts them is that they don't trust their own beliefs and decisions to be saved. Thus, if all the decisions have been made for them, then they don't have to worry about growing in their faith. They don't have to learn anything, because God as already predetermined everything the believer is going to do. They don't trust themselves (or the Lord) to truly evangelize. They can say "Repent and believe!" to everyone, but they don't have to go after people who initially refuse them as those people are not "elect."

23 posted on 05/30/2002 4:40:57 AM PDT by ShadowAce
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Goldhammer
and unfortunately, Dave Armstrong went on a theological tangent in response. I say this is unfortunate because this line is the core of his opponent's thinking, and, get this, it can be refuted by logic. Because it is a straightforward logical fallacy. The debate could have ended right there. But it didn't

Excellent post, Gold, - dense with learning and logic. Ideologues will not be moved off their position. "Real" Marxists never capitulate to reality nor do "Real" Darwinists change their spots - like, Stephen Jay Gould did, they just rhetorically repackage the hoary "hopeful monster" theory as "punctuated Equilibrium," to account for their inability to provide convincing evidence for their putative "scientific" theory. No, any countervailing evidence to their ideology is reinterpreted to quell the possibility of cognitive dissonance.

24 posted on 05/30/2002 5:25:56 AM PDT by Catholicguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Goldhammer
If one can't distinguish between God's knowing and causing, then He would become the author of evil, which hardly anyone on either side believes.

This was lifted from that Armstroing debate. There are some on these threads that do think God is the author of evil. They think it ontologically ineluctable ( I know I could have written that differently but those words sound neat together)

25 posted on 05/30/2002 5:32:00 AM PDT by Catholicguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: drstevej;xzins
Is Philip Schaff one of your heroes???

never heard of him - Ive got two heroes - Jesus and the guy who invented plain red pizza (no cheese) with anchovies, possibly including the saint who created Linguine with white clam sauce, provolone, white wine, red wine, miller genuine draft, & doritos (only with french onion dip) - everything else is mans construct

26 posted on 05/30/2002 6:07:07 AM PDT by Revelation 911
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: rwfromkansas
I guess everybody is saved then if you take the Arminian way out and don't bother to look further than the modern meaning of these words and don't bother looking at things like context etc.

shallower yet

27 posted on 05/30/2002 6:08:54 AM PDT by Revelation 911
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Catholicguy
They think it ontologically ineluctable ( I know I could have written that differently but those words sound neat together)

Yeah - but my eyes hurt

plain english for us nine to fivers, or at least little tiny plain english translation at the bottom - besides, moneys too tight to be usin expensive words like that

28 posted on 05/30/2002 6:12:37 AM PDT by Revelation 911
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Revelation 911
Anchovies make any pizza resistable. Even if the cook's name was Grace!
29 posted on 05/30/2002 6:15:59 AM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Revelation 911
What's the point of pizza if you don't get the cheese?
30 posted on 05/30/2002 6:20:42 AM PDT by ShadowAce
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: ShadowAce
What's the point of pizza if you don't get the cheese?

I do not know your god LOL

Ok, Its a holdover from my Catholic days - self denial LOL - Ok maybe just a pinch on real goats milk romano -

31 posted on 05/30/2002 6:30:18 AM PDT by Revelation 911
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: drstevej
Anchovies make any pizza resistable. Even if the cook's name was Grace!

You sir with all due respect are a child of the devil for suggesting as much ! ;)

32 posted on 05/30/2002 6:31:29 AM PDT by Revelation 911
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: allend
Then where the Calvinists go off into blasphemy is when they argue that God's grace is impossible to resist, and so the fact that some men go to hell is proof that God never gave them the grace to be saved in the first place, but rather created them for no other purpose than to send them to hell.

Do you mean like these Jude was speaking of?

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

34 posted on 05/30/2002 6:58:21 AM PDT by vmatt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: allend
Look, I am well aware that there are certain scripture passages which you Calvinists claim as proof-texts for your doctrines. I could argue interpretation with you, but I just don't care to. My experience with you Calvinists is that you are so committed to your doctrines that you are not going to entertain alternate interpretations.

I resent your labelling me anything I am not a Calvinist. You and many others here attempt to box everyone in some nice convenient label so your rejection can be wholesale when we are fellow believers with you. You accuse of another interpretation then provide none for the scriptures I supplied. By doing these things you border on sinning against the children of God but not to worry, you are in good company here.

36 posted on 05/30/2002 7:40:15 AM PDT by vmatt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: vmatt; allend; catholicguy
3 Beloved, all diligence using to write to you concerning the common salvation, I had necessity to write to you, exhorting to agonize for the faith once delivered to the saints, 4 for there did come in unobserved certain men, long ago having been written beforehand to this judgment, impious, the grace of our God perverting to lasciviousness, and our only Master, God, and Lord -- Jesus Christ -- denying,

The above is from Young's Literal Translation of the passage of Jude in question.

long ago having been written beforehand to this judgement.....that certainly opens up different avenues of approach, doesn't it?

WRITTEN about long before to this judgement. In other words, this kind of judgement was written about long before for these kind of lacivious men. Nothing eerie, spookie there, was there?

38 posted on 05/30/2002 8:07:10 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: xzins;allend;catholicguy
WRITTEN about long before to this judgement. In other words, this kind of judgement was written about long before for these kind of lacivious men. Nothing eerie, spookie there, was there?

Study the word ordained. Sometimes in order to obtain the proper meaning of words we look to other uses of the same word in scripture.

13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

40 posted on 05/31/2002 4:37:38 AM PDT by vmatt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

Comment #41 Removed by Moderator

To: vmatt; allend; corin stormhands
name all the alternative interpretations you can come up with for this passage.
42 posted on 05/31/2002 3:13:31 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Revelation 911
miller genuine draft

Do you like it better than beer?

Hank

43 posted on 05/31/2002 8:14:32 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Theresa
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself. John 12:32

So of course hell will have no men in it then only satan and his demons

44 posted on 05/31/2002 8:24:19 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Goldhammer;rwfromkansas;Jerry_M;OrthodoxPresbyterian.CCWoody;the_doc;Matchett-PI;dittoJed2...
I don't understand what attracts people to believe in Calvinistic predestination.

Men will never like the biblical teaching of predestination and without Gods grace they will never be attracted to it ,because it means they can not be God.

God did not much care if YOU liked His plans or not. They are His plans and HE is God!

45 posted on 05/31/2002 8:29:47 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: vmatt
Ping for Jude..Thanks Vmatt..you are my scripture friend
46 posted on 05/31/2002 8:31:40 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Prophecy? Who writes that?
47 posted on 05/31/2002 8:55:53 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Goldhammer, the_doc
Let me give you an example. Dave Armstrong, the very capable Catholic apologist, spent many pages in such a debate.

You might notice: Dave botched his apologia from his very first paragraph... incorporating a fatal flaw in his Argument which his incompetent Anglican opponent failed to nail him on (attends to Foreknowledge of differing Free Actions in the context of differing Elective Creations, as I have mentioned before). An inexcusable failure on the part of the Anglican.

Now, I don't know (and don't care to cast aspersions upon) Mr. Dave Armstrong; I only know Forensic Debate.

And in collegiate Forensic Debate, Armstrong shoulda been put through the ringer and left to dry from his first paragraph on. The failure of his Anglican opponent to exploit this obvious and fatal vulnerability in Armstrong's very front-line of attack, only means that Armstrong's opponent was not a competently-trained debater.

Ergo, the rest of the debate is a non-event. Armstrong shoulda been, and easily could've been, crushed immediately after his First Constructive. Victory over Apologetic Incompetents garners him no particular merit.

48 posted on 05/31/2002 9:00:26 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Goldhammer, the_doc, Jerry_M, RnMomof7, CCWoody, BibChr
I don't understand what attracts people to believe in Calvinistic predestination.

The Bible.

80% of FR Calvinists are converts from the Man's-Sovereignty world-view. And in every single one of our cases, I will warrant, we initially found the Doctrine of God's Absolute Predestination to be anything but "attractive".

Unfortunately, each of us had a prior and absolute commitment to Sola Scriptura... and, much to our dismay, Absolute Predestination turned out to be the express teaching of Scripture.

We were dragged to Calvinism kicking and screaming by our commitment to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. A very great many of us had never even read a single Calvinist Theologian until after the Holy Writ had already converted us.

"Attraction"? Au Contraire. We saw the Truth, we hated the Truth, and the Truth nevertheless ignored our rebellious and prideful objections...
...and set us theologically and intellectually Free.

49 posted on 05/31/2002 9:08:11 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian;Shadow Ace
Kicking and screaming and on my knees.....so right OP...not as Shadow says

I believe that what attracts them is that they don't trust their own beliefs and decisions to be saved. Thus, if all the decisions have been made for them, then they don't have to worry about growing in their faith.

Rather I kicked and screamed that I was not in charge and feared what that meant...BTW may I say that I believe that our growth in faith is of God too? It is God's grace that gives understanding and illumination to scripture..

50 posted on 05/31/2002 9:32:06 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-93 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson