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Can the Bishops Heal the American Church?
Crisis: Politics, Culture & the Church | June 2002 | George Sim Johnston

Posted on 06/04/2002 3:03:30 AM PDT by maryz

The Catholic Church in America is at a watershed. The current crisis is the culmination of decades of bad management, errant theology, and sinful behavior. It is partly about sex and partly about bishops. It is also about deluded therapies and an institutional Church that often goes flopping along with the mainstream on moral issues. The crisis is mostly, however, about active homosexuals in the priesthood. Anyone (including an archbishop) who does not admit this is simply part of the problem.

The media have framed the issue as one of pedophilia – that is, the sexual abuse of prepubescent children. But the large majority of the cases in question involve not pedophilia but the sexual abuse of teenage boys. Sexual attraction to male adolescents is technically called “ephebophilia.” But don’t expect Mike Wallace to use this term on 60 Minutes. Not because it is a mouthful, but because the media prefer not to treat homosexual behavior as the issue. Still, it is issue, and if the hierarchy does not root it out – if it takes the easy approach of instituting “new procedures” for dealing with abuse only after it has occurred – then the devastation is going to continue.

In the Wake of Humanae Vitae

Let me tell you a story. Two decades ago, a friend of mine attended a large social gathering sponsored by a diocese in the Northeast. At one point, all the local seminarians arrived, and as the music was cranked up, they all began to dance with one another. My friend expressed puzzlement to somebody familiar with t he way things were under the local bishop, and the reply was, “Of course, all the seminarians are gay.”

The institutional Church has been deeply corrupted by the sexual revolution. Ralph McInerny was absolutely correct in his April 2002 “End Notes” when wrote that many of our problems can be traced to the widespread theological dissent against Humanae Vitae. That 1968 encyclical was the defining moment of modern American Catholicism. It put famous theologians into open rebellion against the Holy See. It made heterodoxy normative in many, if not most, Catholic institutions. In the wake of the dissent, many in the clergy began to issue permission slips to the laity for all sorts of sexual behavior. So why not give one to themselves?

I hope we are beyond the point where any discussion of homosexual behavior that is not entirely favorable is deemed “homophobic.” We are not talking here about priests with a homosexual orientation who are struggling to live the virtue of chastity. We are talking about active homosexuals who have broken their vows. We are talking about a lifestyle that is often marked by compulsive behavior. Homosexuals have a more serious problem with promiscuity and lack of restraint than heterosexuals (see, for example, Spence Publishing’s Homosexuality in American Public Life, edited by Christopher Wolfe). Forty percent of homosexual sex today is reportedly unprotected – this after two decades of safe-sex instruction. Active homosexuals also constitute a relatively high proportion of sexual molesters. And they have been welcomed into the Catholic priesthood.

How did this happen? At some point in the early 1970s, a gay insurgency within the Church began to gain control of at least part of the official Catholic apparatus. Once in place, this network expanded. Many seminaries were turned into “pink palaces” where young, devout, heterosexual men felt distinctly vulnerable. And this is not just a diocesan problem: Many religious orders run seminaries with openly homosexual cultures.

Is it surprising, then, that these scandals have occurred? If you allow into the priesthood men who in many cases have already chosen to flout Catholic moral teachings and are disposed to mix sodomy with their ministerial rounds, which include contact with teenage boys, there are going to be incidents of sexual abuse.

Where the Bishops Went Wrong

Ant let’s be clear about this: There is no greater scandal on this planet than a priest sexually violating a minor. Christ used the strongest possible language to condemn the abuse of the “little ones.” Such acts are the equivalent of spiritual and psychological murder. There are often perpetrated on confused youths who hunger for a father figure and never fully recover from the betrayal of trust.

Just as scandalous has been the handling of these incidents by bishops and administrators. And this brings us to a larger problem in the American Catholic Church. For decades, our episcopate has been in the hands of mildly “pastoral” men who (with honorable exceptions) chose not to see what was happening on their watch. This is true even of some visibly orthodox bishops. It is good and honorable to uphold Catholic doctrine in the public arena, but it is much more difficult to confront diocesan officials who dissent from Catholic teaching. Even in so-called orthodox dioceses there can be found legions of heterodox administrators who have ruined seminaries and made a hash of CCD and Pre-Cano programs. This is where the courage of many bishops fails: They would rather get on with their administrators – some of whom may be openly contemptuous of the magisterium – than be a sign of contradiction. They simply let things happen.

The grossly negligent response of certain bishops to incidents of sexual abuse is of a piece with this “I’m okay, you’re okay” style of episcopal management. Sexual predators have been shifted from parish to parish, their crimes buried in chancery files, and the families of victims in some cases bullied or bought into silence. Bishops have treated the threat of bad publicity, rather than the predators, as the problem. Their response to these wolves loose in the sheepfold has been bureaucratic rather than spiritual and moral.

Even now, I am not sure that some bishops really get it, given the solutions they are venting after meeting with Pope John Paul II in Rome. The crisis is not going to be solved just be instituting new procedures, or tightening up reporting or using more psychological testing. It will disappear only when bishops understand the responsibilities of their office and are not afraid of striking at the root of the problem – which is going to involve, among other things, firing vocations directors, cleaning up the seminaries, and defrocking (with Rome’s permission) a number of priests. We are not talking about witch-hunts, and due process is important. But why should so many teaching centers of the Church be in the hands of people who not only reject Catholic doctrine but don’t seem to mind priests breaking their vows?

One of the benefits of the current scandals is the exposure of the therapeutic culture that has invaded the Church. The Catholic landscape is dotted with therapy centers that purport to treat sexually abusive priests. These centers give bishops the illusion that they are doing something about the problem. But they are often staffed with “experts” who are sympathetic to the gay agenda. These therapists are quick to label their patients as normal and harmless after a few months of counseling and send them off for a new parish assignment. It is worth noting that in 1973 the American Psychiatric Association officially decided to stop treating the homosexual orientation as a problem. In any event, anybody who knows anything about sexual pathologies knows that the rates of recidivism are high after treatment. The credulity of those who have bought into these programs for so long is truly astonishing.

What the Bishops Must Do

The current crisis presents an enormous opportunity for reform and renewal within the Church. There is also a great potential for error. One popular proposal is to allow priests to marry. But there is a good reason why celibacy is a Church discipline. On a practical level, the Church discovered early on that diocesan priests could not fully do justice to the vocation of priesthood and the vocation of marriage, both of which involve a total gift of self. Also, think about it: If the Church were to allow priests to marry, within a decade or so there would be a lot of divorced priests – some clamoring for remarriage. If the sexual revolution is going to adversely affect single priests, it will certainly affect married ones.

There are things the hierarchy can do right now to address the crisis, and there are other policies that will take years to implement. First, the American bishops have to admit that this is their problem, not Rome’s. One of the ironies of the current crisis is that for years parties in the American Church, including bishops, have complained about Vatican “interference,” implying that they have more to teach Rome than vice versa. But the moment the scandals broke, the cry became, “Why doesn’t the Vatican do something?” The Catholic Church is not an American corporation, and the bishops are not functionaries of the pope; they are the heads of the Church in their diocese and are fully responsible.

And they need to do a serious housecleaning. They need to ask a number of incorrigible offenders to leave the priesthood. They may have to close some seminaries or transfer their management to orthodox orders. I recently talked to their one young man who described life in the East Coast seminary from which he was expelled for orthodoxy: lavish parties, plenty of liquor, never any silence, an openly gay vice-rector, a liturgy professor who assigns Protestant textbooks on the Eucharist and refers to the Blessed Sacrament as “bread” and transubstantiation as a “theory.” The only “good” news was that not all his fellow seminarians were gay: One had a girlfriend who regularly visited his bed with the tacit approval of his superiors.

In the case of the abuse of minors, there should be a “one strike and you’re out” policy. The severity of this approach does not violate the Catholic understanding that all sinners are capable of change and repentance. It is simply a prudential recognition that a disproportionate number of sex offenders are likely to bide their time and strike again. We have a duty to protect our youth, and this means we have no business experimenting with more therapies and simply hoping for the best.

The bishops should also consider incorporating Rev. John Harvey’s Courage program in seminaries and treatment centers. Courage is a spiritual support system that helps men with a homosexual orientation to live an interior life of chastity. It works. Yet Catholic bishops and administrators are often hostile to Courage, preferring programs that are more to the taste of gay activists.

The bishops might also consider finally implementing the documents of the Second Vatican Council, which, among other things, are an antidote to the clericalism that still plagues the Church in this country. In too many dioceses, there is an impenetrable clerical culture that does not involve orthodox lay Catholics with real expertise in areas like management and organization – and theology, for that matter. I am not suggesting the “clericalization” of the laity, but it is important for both clergy and laity to grow out of the habit of viewing the church as a juridical machine run by a self-enclosed hierarchy. The current crisis would not have been so bad if the hierarchy had worked with consultative lay bodies that act as a reality check.

Like the Sons of Noah

What is the proper response of the laity to the crisis? Above all, it should be one of prayer and trust in God. We should also examine ourselves as Catholics. The laity constitute 89 percent of the Church, and these scandals among the clergy did not occur in a vacuum. Do we pray for priests? Do we foster vocations among devout and intelligent young men? Are we supportive of parish priests, who have very difficult jobs and often only hear complaints? Are we charitable toward their human failings?

Sometimes it is a good thing for the laity to behave like the sons of Noah, who covered their father’s nakedness with a cloak. St. Catherine of Siena, who lived in a time of great crisis in the Church, reports Christ as saying in one of her mystical dialogues: “It is my will that the sins of the clergy should not lessen your reverence for them . . . because the reverence you pay to them is not actually paid to them but to me.” Our outlook in these matters must be supernatural. Our attention should primarily be on God rather than the sins of others.

That said, the Church has serious work to do in putting its house in order. St. Catherine also wrote: “It is essential to root out from the garden of the Church the rotten plants and to put in their place the good ones.”


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: catholicchurch; catholiclist; priestscandal
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Crisis does have a website, but the current issue is not posted.

I think Sims makes some very good points, though I wish he had been more forceful and less diffuse.

1 posted on 06/04/2002 3:03:30 AM PDT by maryz
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To: *Catholic_list; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; Cicero; saradippity; american colleen; ELS...
This article is, in any case, a great deal better than today's column in The Wall Street Journal by Archbishop Harry J. Flynn. I haven't checked to see if it's on the free part of their website for posting, but to give you the flavor of it, "Over the past decade, we have learned that we are facing a solvable problem. Bishops around the country have put in place programs that work." Not one word about homosexuality in the priesthood and hierarchy.

I don't recall ever having heard of Archbishop Flynn before. According to the blurb in the WSJ, "Archbishop Flynn is arachbishop of St. Paul-Minneapolis and chairman of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops' Ad Hoc Committee on Sexual Abuse." Maybe some of you know more about him.

2 posted on 06/04/2002 3:14:28 AM PDT by maryz
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To: maryz
This really is the Time of the Laity. The Bishops will not put anything effective into place and even if they did, the "policies" will have no forceful effect as the Bishop's conference has no authority. It's only "authority" is if individual Bishops decide to abide by the policy. And we know that each Bishop runs or ignores his own Diocese as he desires. The Bishops oppose Rome and we think they will listen to their own non-authoritative rhetorical scaffolding erected to conceal as much as to heal?

It is time for the Laity to grow-up. We KNOW, or we should, which priests are trustworthy. We KNOW, or we should, which Bishops are trustworthy and Orthodox. We do NOT need Rome or the Bishop's Conference to tell us what to do.

It is OUR job to teach the Faith to our children. It is OUR job to assure our children are in a safe school if we do not homeschool. It is OUR job to either tithe to our local parish if it is orthodox or we can tithe to those in our communities that are worthy of help. It is OUR job to inform ourselves and other Catholics in our communities about those in the local Hierarchy and to PUBLICLY oppose heresy, schism, and evil as it presents itself and, more importantly, to publicly praise those acts and persons who are orthodox.

We have GOT to stop relying upon others to solve our problems

3 posted on 06/04/2002 4:36:21 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: maryz
No mention of the 1961 ban on ordaining homosexuals. They're tempting fate if they think a program like Courage will mitigate the risk.
4 posted on 06/04/2002 5:05:30 AM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: maryz
. I recently talked to their one young man who described life in the East Coast seminary from which he was expelled for orthodoxy: lavish parties, plenty of liquor, never any silence, an openly gay vice-rector, a liturgy professor who assigns Protestant textbooks on the Eucharist and refers to the Blessed Sacrament as “bread” and transubstantiation as a “theory.” The only “good” news was that not all his fellow seminarians were gay: One had a girlfriend who regularly visited his bed with the tacit approval of his superiors.

It is time for these seminaries to be "outed" - I am sick and tired of the veiled references to "northeast" seminaries or "often referred to as the pink palace" seminaries... time to out them and reveal just which ones they are. We cannot fix the problem if we don't know where to start.

Thank you Mary for posting this column. It was quite good and I was heartened to see the word "homosexuality" used - I'm sick of the word pedophilia as it has almost nothing to do with this current situation. I just read an entire "Time" Magazine article (on the web) entitled "Can the Catholic Church be saved" - the article was silly and never once used the word homosexuality. Can't hurt anyone's feelings.

Even in so-called orthodox dioceses there can be found legions of heterodox administrators who have ruined seminaries and made a hash of CCD and Pre-Cano programs. This is where the courage of many bishops fails: They would rather get on with their administrators – some of whom may be openly contemptuous of the magisterium – than be a sign of contradiction. They simply let things happen.

GRRRRR... The changes were so gradual over the years that someone like me hardly noticed (I'm 42) and when I did experience vague discomfort, I thought it was ME that wasn't with the times - I wondered where my comforting, other-worldly, never changing Church went.

I am so mad this morning!

Wasn't Bishop Flynn the one who was sent to clean up the Gilbert Gauthe mess? I thought he was a "good guy"?

Did you see this? "Holy See Relaunches Reconciliation Bid with St. Pius X Fraternity"

5 posted on 06/04/2002 5:12:15 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: maryz
Flynns article is in the subscriber section at opinionjournal.com

Archbishop Harry J. Flynn was born May 2, 1933, in Schenectady, New York. After receiving B.A. and M.A. degrees in English from Siena College, Loudonville, NY, he attended Mount Saint Mary's Seminary in Emmitsburg, Maryland, and was ordained to the priesthood on May 28, 1960, in Albany, NY. Then-Father Flynn served as an associate pastor, pastor, high school teacher, retreat master, and spiritual leader in several various assignments in the Diocese of Albany. He also served as the Dean, Vice Rector and Rector of Mount Saint Mary's Seminary from 1965-1979.

Ordained Bishop on June 24, 1986, Bishop Flynn served as the Bishop of the Diocese of Lafayette, Louisiana until being named Coadjutor Archbishop for the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis, Minnesota, in February of 1994. On October 1, 1995, Archbishop Flynn succeeded Archbishop John Roach as head of the Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis.

Archbishop Flynn currently serves as Chairman of the Saint Paul Seminary Board of Trustees, Saint Paul; Chairman of the University of Saint Thomas Board of Trustees, Saint Paul; President of the Saint John Vianney Seminary Board of Directors, Saint Paul; and on the College of Saint Catherine Board of Trustees, Saint Paul. Archbishop Flynn is also a member of the United States Catholic Conference of Bishops (USCCB) Committee for Black Catholics; the USCCB Committee on Sexual Abuse; and the USCCB Committee on the Charismatic Renewal.

6 posted on 06/04/2002 5:16:41 AM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: maryz
St. Catherine also wrote: “It is essential to root out from the garden of the Church the rotten plants and to put in their place the good ones.”

Hope the church heeds these words of wisdom?

7 posted on 06/04/2002 5:25:08 AM PDT by zbogwan2
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
I subscribe to the print edition of the WSJ (for the editorial pages), but not to the website. If a subscriber doesn't post Flynn's article, maybe I'll type it in and post it later.
8 posted on 06/04/2002 5:26:53 AM PDT by maryz
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
No mention of the 1961 ban on ordaining homosexuals. They're tempting fate if they think a program like Courage will mitigate the risk.

Well, Courage probably beats Dignity hollow. And I rather think Johnston is making the suggestion with reference to homosexuals already ordained.

9 posted on 06/04/2002 5:29:52 AM PDT by maryz
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To: american colleen
I am sick and tired of the veiled references to "northeast" seminaries or "often referred to as the pink palace" seminaries...

Me, too. It's makes them sound more like Page Six or something rather than serious writers -- "Which well-known northeastern seminary . . .?"

The changes were so gradual over the years that someone like me hardly noticed

My own impression was changes were so fast and furious in the 70s your head would spin; I didn't have a clue about the homosexual subculture, but there are some things I remember now that make a bit more sense knowing it.

Can't help you on Flynn -- as I said, I'd never heard of him.

And I did see the article on St. Pius X Fraternity -- It was heartening to me. I felt sorry for LeFebvre at the time -- I though he was only driven to what he did by a more extreme form of what I was feeling. And all the far more destructive people who were allowed to run free at the same time!

10 posted on 06/04/2002 5:39:17 AM PDT by maryz
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To: maryz
And I did see the article on St. Pius X Fraternity -- It was heartening to me. I felt sorry for LeFebvre at the time -- I though he was only driven to what he did by a more extreme form of what I was feeling. And all the far more destructive people who were allowed to run free at the same time!

The Pope and Cardinal Ratzinger bent over backwards to accomodate this disobedient man. A deal was arrived at to which he signed his name. The next day he recanted and, not long afterwards, ordained his own Bishops. The SSPX thinks it is the Catholic Church and that Rome is in Schism; it thinks the Mass of Paul VI is invalid or so deficient that assisting at it does not fulfill one's Sunday Obligation; it thinks the Ecumenical Vatican Two Council taught heresy; it thinks it can erect a mirror church with its own Jurisdiction, Mnistry, and Canon Law etc etc.

It is amasing how this great Shepherd, Pope John Paul II keeps seeking out these lost sheep and the lost sheep respond by attacking the Shepherd and refuse to enter the sheepgate until the Vicar of Christ submit to them, the schismatics, and admit that Vatican Two taught error and is not binding , that the normative Mass is deficient and/or invalid, that the Catechism teaches error, that Canon Law must be reconsidered etc etc

Click here to read what they believe in their own words

The Angelus

11 posted on 06/04/2002 6:15:58 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: zbogwan2
In addressing 3 corrupt Italian Cardinals, Catherine of Siena also said:
"You are flowers who shed no perfume, but a stench which makes the whole world reek."
12 posted on 06/04/2002 6:19:54 AM PDT by sockmonkey
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To: Catholicguy
Here is The SSPX as published in The Angelus January 1978, Volume I, Number 1 answers given by Father Carl Pulvermacher

Q. Aren't you being disobedient to the wishes of the Holy Father?

A. Yes, I am. However, you must understand that although obedience is good - Faith is better and is a virtue of higher rank. Our parents, our Priest, our Bishop or even the Pope cannot command me in obedience to do something against God or my soul. No power on earth is absolute. No one can command me to go to or partake of a Protestant service. "We must obey God rather than man." That was the answer of the Apostles when they were dragged before the Sanhedran.

Q. Why can't I go to the New Mass?

A. For some people it is obvious why a Catholic may not participate in the new service - the, so-called "Novus Ordo Missae." Others just can't see the reason. In Holy Mass we offer and worship Christ who is our sacrifice. In the new service is offered bread and wine, the work of human hands and the fruit of this world. In a word, the Novus Ordo Missae is a Protestant service which has been deceitfully handed to our non-suspecting Catholic people. Unbelieveably, it has been done by our bishops "in the spirit of Vatican II."

Q. Do I fulfill my Sunday obligation by going to the New Mass?

A. No. The Church obliges Catholics to keep holy the Sundays and Holy Days by hearing one whole Mass if they are able to do so. If there is no Mass available, but only the New Mass, I must skip it and keep Holy the Lord's Day by doing the next best thing.

13 posted on 06/04/2002 6:30:24 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
Thanks for the link!
14 posted on 06/04/2002 6:33:00 AM PDT by maryz
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To: american colleen;maryz
I don't see Archbishop Flynn as one of the "good guys". I read recently that 9 of 11 Catholic Schools got high marks from the Gay Lesbian Bisexual transgendered whatever it is organization for their curriculum.

I also believe he is the Archbishop who let Richard Sparks, the author of the notorious "Growing in Love" curriculum personally introduce this curriculum to the Catholic educators in Minneapolis-yes, I've seen the actual materials, and they mention d*ldoes, bestiality, and other such things that are sooo important for Catholic school children to be versed in. If I sound like I'm ranting-I am. I will post links to my wild claims when I settle down a bit.

15 posted on 06/04/2002 6:41:22 AM PDT by sockmonkey
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To: Catholicguy
You are absolutely 100% right! Also, if you know your Bishop is liberal, starting withholding your MONEY! Believe it or not, the laity hold the power of the purse in their hands which I believe is the only thing that will get through to some of these Bishops!
16 posted on 06/04/2002 6:42:20 AM PDT by Gerish
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To: maryz
The crisis is mostly, however, about active homosexuals in the priesthood. Anyone (including an archbishop) who does not admit this is simply part of the problem.

It couldn't have been stated more clearly and precisely!

17 posted on 06/04/2002 6:43:04 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
Archbishop Harry J. Flynn ... attended Mount Saint Mary's Seminary in Emmitsburg, Maryland

According to Goodbye! Good Men, Mt. Saint Mary's is one of the most orthodox and non-gay seminaries in the U.S.

18 posted on 06/04/2002 6:48:18 AM PDT by Rum Tum Tugger
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To: maryz
which is going to involve, among other things, firing vocations directors, cleaning up the seminaries, and defrocking (with Rome’s permission) a number of priests.

This is an absolute MUST!

19 posted on 06/04/2002 6:51:03 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: Catholicguy
It is amasing how this great Shepherd, Pope John Paul II keeps seeking out these lost sheep and the lost sheep respond by attacking the Shepherd and refuse to enter the sheepgate until the Vicar of Christ submit to them, the schismatics, and admit that Vatican Two taught error and is not binding , that the normative Mass is deficient and/or invalid, that the Catechism teaches error, that Canon Law must be reconsidered etc etc

I agree with you that JPII is a great shepherd, but while he has been trying to gather all the lost sheep (a wonderful and holy thing to do, IMO. I hope and pray for the reconcilliation of the Orthodox and flocks like the SSPX), JPII has been letting priests/teachers/bishops who are much less orthodox than the flocks JPII has been "echumening" with, teach and preach to the Catholics already in the fold. This has resulted in the mess that we are in now - starting before JPII but freefalling for the last 30+ years. I feel bad saying that, but I always remember that you should take care of your own house before you take care of someone else's. How can we be the light of the world with the state that the Church is in? IMO, the best way to echumenize others is to be a perfect example of Catholic Christianity.

20 posted on 06/04/2002 7:04:46 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: sockmonkey
I don't see Archbishop Flynn as one of the "good guys". I read recently that 9 of 11 Catholic Schools got high marks from the Gay Lesbian Bisexual transgendered whatever it is organization for their curriculum.

That is just plain gross. WHY do MOST of the Archbishops/Bishops/Priests feel that the Catholic Church has to "go with the flow" and please and not offend the secular world. We are supposed to be the light of the world.

21 posted on 06/04/2002 7:08:54 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: maryz
Doesn't look good ... I'll keep reading. Thanks for the flag.
22 posted on 06/04/2002 7:11:13 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: maryz
The laity constitute 89 percent of the Church, and these scandals among the clergy did not occur in a vacuum. Do we pray for priests? Do we foster vocations among devout and intelligent young men? Are we supportive of parish priests, who have very difficult jobs and often only hear complaints? Are we charitable toward their human failings?

I agree with much of what he has to say, but come short on this one. Don't lay this issue of depravity off on the laity. You can't have it both ways; we have a higher calling but we're not fully responsible for our actions. All the devout Catholics I know pray for and are supportive of their priests, foster good vocations and are more than charitable. What does that have to do with some sodomite imposter who's wrecking my family; the Church!?!? When it comes to these perverts and heretics I only respect the office; but like the early fathers, I hold their actions and doctrines in contempt.

23 posted on 06/04/2002 7:15:33 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
They're tempting fate if they think a program like Courage will mitigate the risk.

My fear is that they will take the easy way out!

24 posted on 06/04/2002 7:18:11 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: american colleen; one particular Harbour
WHY do MOST of the Archbishops/Bishops/Priests feel that the Catholic Church has to "go with the flow" and please and not offend the secular world.

Because unfortunately there is a long history of powerful Catholics carrying water for political figures ... Archbishop Spellman's complicity in Roosevelt's eugenic policies being a stand-out for me.

In the wake of the Notre Dame stealth conferences on birth control in the 60's, several prominent Catholics (having been thoroughly conditioned by "foundation" monies and following the lead of utterly compromised Notre Dame president Hesburgh) took the lead in facilitating the State's sanctioning and enforcing of artificial contraceptoin as population control policy by testifying to Congress that they had no right to "impose their beliefs" on others and "speaking for Catholics" would shut up and sit down as the State proceeded about its objectives.

This was in stark contrast to the first half of the century where Catholics were at the forefront of forestalling the State's incursions into population control and the deconstruction of morals.

And, unfortunately, it's these Catholics-in-name-only who served as a model for today's "I'm personally opposed, BUT ..." Republicans and conservatives who by their caving on their personal convictions, allow the State to run roughshod over the populace and impose its "values".

The State is people. If you are a person whose "personal values" comport with the objectives and means of the State, you are ALWAYS well within your rights to impose your views of abortion, pornography, "de facto" unions, homosexual marriage, sexual education, environmentalism, anti-tobacco, etc. etc. on EVERYONE using the brawn of the State who's only too happy to play Big Brother in this regard.

Only if you stand for truths and those enduring moral laws which derive from God and are exemplified in large part by the moral codes of every human civilization since the beginning of human history, are you required to leave your personal convictions at home and play an impotent hypocrite in the Public Square.

25 posted on 06/04/2002 7:20:01 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
Thanks for the reply. WOW! You have a way with words!
26 posted on 06/04/2002 7:23:33 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: american colleen
I read recently that 9 of 11 Catholic Schools got high marks from the Gay Lesbian Bisexual transgendered whatever it is organization for their curriculum.

I was ranting. I meant 9 of 11 Catholic schools in Minneapolis. Here are the links I said I would post which mention Archbishop Flynn, and the homosexual friendly agenda in his Archdiocese. He apparently professes one thing publicly, and then turns around and does the exact opposite or, allows his employees to do it: catholicparents.org
defenders.org

27 posted on 06/04/2002 7:26:22 AM PDT by sockmonkey
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Rum Tum Tugger
Mt. Saint Mary's is one of the most orthodox and non-gay seminaries in the U.S.

It's not quite as rosey as it seems. I have a very orthodox friend who just dropped out of seminary (the Mount) because of the overbearing homosexuality that is there(shower games that are just overlooked by the formation team; nightly visitations and sexual favors). He is discerning going elsewhere!

29 posted on 06/04/2002 7:32:52 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: american colleen
This has resulted in the mess that we are in now - starting before JPII but freefalling for the last 30+ years.

Clericalism is alive and well.

31 posted on 06/04/2002 7:36:12 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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To: sockmonkey
I knew what you meant. I've been ranting a bit today as well. It's a tough time and some days are harder than others. For the last couple of days they (the DA office) here in Boston has been deposing Bishops. Yesterday it was McCormack and today it is Archbishop Banks - both worked in the Chancery under Cardinal Law and both reassigned "problem" priests. I'd just like to ask both of them (and Cardinal Law) how they, as educated, called men, could have been so stupid and hateful towards the young in their flocks. I just do not understand it. Then, I look around and wonder how JPII (who I love and admire) could have been travelling around for 20+ years while this garbage as well as the freefall of Catholic teaching was going on. You are supposed to take care of your own house before you take care of someone else's. And I think the hurt is greater for us because we truly do look on one another as "family", and no one can hurt you like a family member can.

Thanks for reading my rant! And I will check out your links.

32 posted on 06/04/2002 7:38:21 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: american colleen
WHY do MOST of the Archbishops/Bishops/Priests feel that the Catholic Church has to "go with the flow" and please and not offend the secular world.

In a paper written in the 40s ("On the Reading of Old Books," an introduction to a new translation of Athanasius, included in God in the Dock), C.S. Lewis writes:

[Athanasius] stood for the Trinitarian doctrine, 'whole and entire,' when it looked as if all the civilized world was slipping back from Christianity into the religion of Arius -- into one of those 'sensible' synthetic religions which are so strongly recommended today and which, then as now, included among their devotees many highly cultivated clergymen.
As noted, Lewis was writing in the 40s about Athanasius (4th century?). It's not a new problem. Granted as the world these people are trying to keep up with gets worse, the problem gets more appalling.
33 posted on 06/04/2002 7:40:11 AM PDT by maryz
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To: Catholicguy
Yes, I am. However, you must understand that although obedience is good - Faith is better and is a virtue of higher rank. Our parents, our Priest, our Bishop or even the Pope cannot command me in obedience to do something against God or my soul.

Oh, Oh. Sounds like a "personal interpretation" problem.

The Church obliges Catholics to keep holy the Sundays and Holy Days by hearing one whole Mass if they are able to do so. If there is no Mass available, but only the New Mass, I must skip it and keep Holy the Lord's Day by doing the next best thing.

What is the next best thing!?!?!

34 posted on 06/04/2002 7:41:41 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: ThomasMore
I agree with much of what he has to say, but come short on this one. Don't lay this issue of depravity off on the laity.

I agree -- I especially liked his emphasis on the importance of cleaning things up to prevent new instances, as opposed to concentrating on what to do when they occur. But other sections, like the one you quote, seem more like filler, and the article would have been more forceful without them.

35 posted on 06/04/2002 7:42:34 AM PDT by maryz
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To: Askel5
Archbishop Spellman's complicity in Roosevelt's eugenic policies being a stand-out for me.

I am embarrassed by my ignorance, but could you elaborate? I knew eugenics was popular in the 30s and into the 40s, when the Nazis "gave it a bad name," but pretty much all I know about it I read in Chesterton's Eugenics and Other Evils. I did not know Roosevelt was into it. (Spellman, of course, is just full of surprises.)

36 posted on 06/04/2002 7:47:04 AM PDT by maryz
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To: one_particular_harbour
the state, by allowing people to choose whether to do things like use contraception, is forcing good Catholics to accept it and is violating their freedom to impose their version of morality by law.

You ready to go toe to toe and defend your (and the state's) version of morality against mine?

I think we should. We might have a better idea of who's being snookered here with faulty science, absolutely malleable public opinion, "lifeboat" ethics and flat out lies.

That's how it should have been done from the get-go. Unfortunately, the blissfully ignorant don't always pay a lot of attention to the exact means by which the so-called "people's will" is forced on them ... court case by court case as rubberstambed by Legislators and FORCED on the population at large.

Because my argument is strictly free of artificial sweeteners (and thus may taste a little sour to a sweet tooth like you), I have every confidence I can beat you on the merits.

37 posted on 06/04/2002 7:47:25 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: maryz
As noted, Lewis was writing in the 40s about Athanasius (4th century?). It's not a new problem. Granted as the world these people are trying to keep up with gets worse, the problem gets more appalling.

I know it is not a new problem, but at least Athanasius was dealing with people who cared enough about God to embrace some sort of Christianity. What I see (as a result of the non/bad/lukewarm teaching of the churches over the last 30 or so years) is a rejection of religion, a feeling of the irrelevance of God in our lives and/or no thought at all given to God's place in the lives of human beings. Imagine that only 35% of Catholics believe in the Real Presence?

38 posted on 06/04/2002 7:51:51 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: american colleen

Yes, I am. However, you must understand that although obedience is good - Faith is better and is a virtue of higher rank. Our parents, our Priest, our Bishop or even the Pope cannot command me in obedience to do something against God or my soul.

Oh, Oh. Sounds like a "personal interpretation" problem.

This view on obedience that you call "personal interpretation" is the view of such doctors of the church as St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Robert Bellarmine. Certainly, you are not accusing them of "personal interpretation?"

Remember, the first law of the church is the salvation of souls. If we obey a command contrary to the faith, the claim that we were just being obedient will not suffice on judgmement day.

39 posted on 06/04/2002 7:52:47 AM PDT by Bellarmine
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To: One Particular Harbour
By the way ... NO DOUBT we should also address the question of whose system allows the State the most power over peoples' lives.

Despite your continued anti-clericalist chirping on the dire prospect that would be my imposing my strictly Catholic beliefs on you, I know you will be pleasantly surprised to find that my arguments would results in a drastic reduction of the State's intervention in folks' private affairs and ensure the maximum rightful sovereignty locused always most closely to the individual.

There's a reason the State is always interested in the "consequence free" solution for folks. The State knows (as do I) that authority only comes with responsibility.

As folks cede responsbility for their actions -- primarily by availing themselves of the State's artificial realities and taking part in the Legal Lotto that shunts the brunt of paying for one's own mistakes to a deep pockets insurance collective or corporation -- they also cede their claim to authority over their own lives, even.

This is why folks don't really have choices anymore. The most glaring example being dimwit women who -- seeking to "have it all" courtesy of the State's making all things equal -- end up with nothing but a woeful life of "choices" to short either their career or their kids.

40 posted on 06/04/2002 7:55:57 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: Bellarmine
Remember, the first law of the church is the salvation of souls.

I didn't forget that, but it does seem that many of the hierarchy did/has.

If we obey a command contrary to the faith, the claim that we were just being obedient will not suffice on judgmement day.

But the faith says that we must be obedient to the Pope/Magisterium teaching, does it not? Not going to Mass because all there might be is the "Novus Ordo" is contrary to the faith. Jesus is Present in the "Novus Ordo", is he not? I would rather receive the Body of Christ in a "Novus Ordo" Mass than not receive Him at all. That said, I do love the Latin/Tridentine Mass.

41 posted on 06/04/2002 7:59:43 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: maryz
Athanasius was a deacon when he led the battle for orthodoxy against Arianism at the Council of Nicaea, which resulted in his being exiled five times. He is one of my favorite saints. Maybe God will raise up another Deacon amongst the clergy to deal with the modernist heresy that plagues our church today.
42 posted on 06/04/2002 8:02:24 AM PDT by ThomasMore
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: Catholicguy
That guy or organization will be Orthodox within the next five years. And welcomed with open arms, it seems to me.
44 posted on 06/04/2002 8:43:08 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: american colleen
IMO, the best way to echumenize others is to be a perfect example of Catholic Christianity.

You'd fit in with us pretty well yourself.
Proselytizing is always offensive. JP2 has done your church no favors. He has, instead, created suspicion on our part and for some a strong loathing. Create a church we can admire from a distance instead, and at least we will not run when we see you coming.
"Save yourself and a thousand around you will be saved."
St. Seraphim of Sarov. A major teaching in our church.

45 posted on 06/04/2002 8:47:25 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: one_particular_harbour
Lol ... I got such a kick out of your wild-eyed post.

Yes, I'm sure a nation where Armand Hammer's dad can take the rap for his murdering a woman for a botched abortion is a scary thought for you and Planned Parenthood (whose protective seals keep just such murderers up and running and free from prison).

You're on, OPH. I'll shall do my level best to come up with a good compare and contrast of how AWFUL life was when the Legion of Decency was allowed free reign and what horrific bureaucracy oppressed Americans through and up to the late 60's and early 70's when the bells of liberty known as Political Correctness, population control, environmentalism, the homosexual agenda, eco-feminism and the right-to-die began to ring in earnest.

We are SO MUCH MORE FREE NOW that the snail darter enjoys greater protection than an unborn human life ... in the name of MORALITY.

46 posted on 06/04/2002 8:54:48 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
free rein.
47 posted on 06/04/2002 8:55:30 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: Catholicguy
It is amasing how this great Shepherd, Pope John Paul II keeps seeking out these lost sheep and the lost sheep respond by attacking the Shepherd and refuse to enter the sheepgate until the Vicar of Christ submit to them

What is truly amazing is that you would see JP2 as the great Shepherd, especially in light of what his church is now shown to be.
What we see when we look at JP2 is incredible arrogance, at best. Not one of us sees ourselves as lost sheep. Come to one of our liturgies and get back to me. Ours is from 300 AD. Step back in time to Byzantium and enjoy the experience of a true mystery, a reverent and profound worship of Christ. Now what could your church possibly offer to replace what we already have? Amazing.

48 posted on 06/04/2002 8:56:14 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: one_particular_harbour
What criminal and civil penalties do you plan to set for fornication and adultery?

I think for those they require about 10 pages to be filled out by ten different people and then a hefty cash payment sent in along with it. Forgiveness in the eyes of the church follows.

49 posted on 06/04/2002 8:59:30 AM PDT by MarMema
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Comment #50 Removed by Moderator


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