Priestly Celibacy And Its Roots In Christ

National Catholic Register ^ | May 19-25 | John Burger

[Catholicguy]

I can only think that the stress of being in the news each day is beginning to seem overwhelming. Or, he has stopped taking a critical medication.

Gee, mar..and it was only yesterday you promised not to come to a catholic thread and engage...I guess your promises are as reliable as your "historical" perspective.

Well, I will stay witn MY promise. Latins are known for that. orthodox and their promises? I think we can all see

David, you never responded. Can you promise not to invade a Thread devoted strictly to Catholic issues?

If you can promise that, can you keep the promise?

[The_Reader_David]

Of course, you leave unaddressed the central point of my post--that you Latins use a Creed which violates the solemn decree of one of the Holy Ecumenical Councils--and reply only with brag and bravado. I again remind you that you yourself wrote that Ecumenical Councils are infallible.

If you tar the Orthodox with the ancient heresies we fought and overcame or expelled, with equal justice, Rome may be charged not only with briefly harboring monthelitism, with its principal and enduring heresy of filioquist triadology "the semi-Sabellian monster", the ecclesiological heresy of setting a single see as superior to the Holy Ecumenical Councils, the heresy of created grace and all its off-shoots (purgatory, indulgences,...), but with spawning Pelagianism, Catharism, Hussitism, Lutheranism, Calvinism, Zwinglianism, Moravianism, Anglicanism, and on and on. I don't think you want to go that route--it is much worse for your cause than ours.

[Conservative til I die]

You thought MarMema was going to stay out of Catholic threads? Ha ha ha. It only exists to piss and fart all over Catholic threads. I rarely see it post on Orthodox threads, but in those rare instances, it can be seen hoping for a speedy death of the Pope. I'm not kidding.

[Conservative til I die]

I've been reading "Triumph," a history of the Church, and the Orthodox Church does not come off well at all. At all. There didn't really seem to even be any real issues that the Orthodox were upset about. It was mostly petty stuff and childish ex-communications of Popes.

[Conservative til I die]

I see nothing in your link which any news to me. It idiotically calls "Orthodox" heretical occupants of Eastern sees, a standard polemical trick of the Latins.

Why is it that Catholics tend to be polite, but Orthodox and Protestants cannot resist using perjoratives, both slight and major?

The problem is that while we Orthodox have had experience dealing with heretical (i.e. by definition non-Orthodox) occupants of our sees and replacing them with Orthodox bishops--often by resistance led by the laity, monastics and ordinary clergy

THat's a lie. The Eastern Church was the main reason heresies survived and were able to challenge legitimate Christianity, as found in the thriving Western Church. The Pope and the Emperors would have to resort to serious measures to stop the propogation of heresy in the East, where they just would not die. (Centuries of Arianism, mutliple waves of Iconoclasm).

--you in the West, once your chief see fell into heresy haven't been able to reverse it, and now define your heresy to be "the Faith".

Go read any Christian history, go read the Church Fathers. They uphold the idea that the Catholic Church IS where the historical True faith has always resided. The evidence is not always strong at times, but it's almost always there. I've yet to read anything that supports this fantasy that we were all Orthodox Christians until the Bishop of Rome decided to turn renegade.

You yourself claimed infallibility on behalf of Ecumenical Councils, and yet will not acknowledge that the violation of the decree of the Holy Ecumenical Council of Ephesus, which forbade changes to the Creed,

Difference between changing a creed and clarifying it.

was the occasion of the schism between the Patriarchate of Rome and the Church. We

[Catholicguy]

David, you never responded. Can you promise not to invade a Thread devoted strictly to Catholic issues?

[Catholicguy]

I plan to avoid completely all dialogue with any of your faith in the future myself. You can count on it.

177 posted on 6/12/02 4:30 AM Pacific by MarMema

I took her at her word...her promise didn't last too long; did it?

[Catholicguy]

Catholicguy, do you really think David and Mar Mena will STOP inserting themselves onto threads that don't even mention the orthodox?

Good question, CG. To be honest, no. I don't think they can. They are riven with animosity and their opposition to Rome and the Pope is the rennin that holds them together.

That they can't refrain from entering Catholic threads is itself evidence they KNOW who truly has authority. If they actualy believed they had the truth and the authority and that we were so corrupt, they'd avoid us like the plague.

Good point, Catholicguy. So, what are you going to do about it?

Well, I have seen how kind words do not turn away their wrath; so, I think it best just to ignore them.

Are you serious, Catholicguy? "Kind words...? "

Yes, I am serious. Go back and review the exchanges between Catholics and the orthdodx and you'll see that invariably the Catholics are effusive in their praise and post many kinds words about the orthodox. But, it isn't long before the charges fly, the accusations are made and, repeatedly, they tell us how much they dislike the Pope.

. I really don't think they are capable of acting otherwise; so, I think it best to ignore them

OK, I'm with you, Catholicguy. The anger, hostility, and the fighting casts us both in a bad light. Let them continue as they will and just ignore them. It isn't worth it.

[Catholicguy]

I've been reading "Triumph," a history of the Church, and the Orthodox Church does not come off well at all.

I haven't purchased that book yet. I do think that one reason some protestants are drawn to the orthodox is their Liturgy, but, far more importantly, their animus to Rome and the Pope. Many prots were raised to think that Rome and the Pope are evil and they find they are welcomed with open arms in the orthodox church. They also get to live in a communion that is quite flexible abouit Doctrine. They can contracept, divorce and reject authority while keeping the smells and bells - it is prolly seen as an enormous blessing for many.

Fortunately, most protestants that convert, convert to the true Faith and do not spend their energies attacking the orthodox or other protestants. By their actions you shall know them.

For every Frankie Shaffer who cultivates a nasty antiRoman and antiPapal personna and publicly attacks Rome, there are scores and scores of Scott Hahn's who never speak ill of other Confessions.

[The_Reader_David]

The post in which you requested I not "invade" a thread devoted to issues of Latin discipline never showed up in my self-search window. If you want me to reply, include my screen name in the header.

Fine, have your own little party on this thread. I hope one of your Byzantine Rite folk finds their way to it, since they will make the same point I did with regard to the main topic, and not be regarded as an "invader".

[Catholicguy]

Fine, have your own little party on this thread.

Can I take that to mean you will stop on other Catholic threads also

[The_Reader_David]

Can I take that to mean you will stop on other Catholic threads also [?]

That rather depends on the content. I am loathe to say I will avoid all threads dealing with your confession, as often those threads contain content deeply objectionable to the Orthodox, which I regard as requiring a response on our part.

If you hadn't been so bull-headed about having to answer me, my "invasion" of this thread would have been limited to reminding you all about the councils which defended clerical marriage and of the existence the Uniates who, though in your communion, have married clergy. Do not expect me, though, to use language, even when posting on threads concerning events in your confession, which would in any way give rhetorical support to your confession's claims or doctrines contrary to the Holy Orthodox Faith.

[Catholicguy]

That rather depends on the content. I am loathe to say I will avoid all threads dealing with your confession, as often those threads contain content deeply objectionable to the Orthodox, which I regard as requiring a response on our part. If you hadn't been so bull-headed about having to answer me, my "invasion" of this thread would have been limited to reminding you all about the councils which defended clerical marriage and of the existence the Uniates who, though in your communion, have married clergy. Do not expect me, though, to use language, even when posting on threads concerning events in your confession, which would in any way give rhetorical support to your confession's claims or doctrines contrary to the Holy Orthodox Faith

I figured. A simple "no" would have sufficed but you turn a straight forward question into just another opportunity to be both pedantically contentious and issue more of your false charges. That is so typical....

Frankly, Sir, you are beneath contempt and your "faith" is niggardly, pedantic, nationalistic, crabbed, false and envious of the true authority of the Pope.

I knew that neither you nor Mar could make a promise not to intrude upon another's area of Faith; that you are uncontroably driven to confront Divinely-constituted authority and that you were incapable fo promising not to attack another's faith.

It is highly revealing, at least to me, that Catholics can so easily promise NOT to go on orthodox threads and start fights - and stick with that promise - while some orthodox, like you and Mar, are incapable of extending the courtesy.

Nope, for true "Totalitarian ideologues," not Christians, promises of leaving others alone is impossible. They (folks like you and Mar, not Don-O) are unhappy leaving others to follow the Faith as they see fit and to explain it as they see fit. Your deadly drive to control others is so sick and twisted that you actually think YOU can define Doctrine for other Communions. You, sir are mad..And I leave the mad alone....May God have mercy on your soul

[sitetest]

Dear Catholicguy,

"Frankly, Sir, you are beneath contempt and your 'faith' is niggardly, pedantic, nationalistic, crabbed, false..."

I remind you that our Holy Father considers the Orthodox to be a sister Church in possession of substantially Catholic faith. I remind you that the Second Vatican Council considered the Orthodox to be a sister Church. I remind you that our Holy Father says that the Orthodox are the other lung of the universal Catholic Church. I remind you that the Church accepts as valid the sacraments, orders, and hierarchy of the Orthodox, and that the Code of Canon Law makes explicitly clear that Catholics, under limited circumstances, may receive the sacraments from Orthodox clerics (even married ones), and that these sacraments are entirely valid.

I suggest that it is quite beyond the pale to state that Orthodoxy is a false faith. If the Orthodox possessed a false faith, they could not possess a faith that is substantially Catholic, or valid sacraments, orders, and hierarchy. You seem to be in disagreement with several Supreme Pontiffs and at least one Ecumenical Council on this issue.

I guess that makes you a protestant! ;-)

sitetest

[Catholicguy]

(folks like you and Mar, not Don-O)

LOL...nice try. I was referring to david and Mar's personal "approach" and contrasting that with Don-o, who is orthodox

[sitetest]

Dear Catholicguy,

If that is what you meant, and not a slander against all of Orthodoxy, you have made that as clear as mud. But when you throw mud at others, mud tends to get everywhere and into everything.

You may also wish to think twice before you question whether or not The_Reader_David's personal faith is false or not. He seems to adhere to his Orthodox faith (though perhaps without visible charity), though he could use as many lessons in tact and diplomacy as you could. Nonetheless, he is just as wrong to assert that your faith is false as you are to assert the same about his.

Glad to see you haven't fallen into heresy. Especially over a schismatic.

;-)

sitetest

[Catholicguy]

If that is what you meant, and not a slander against all of Orthodoxy, you have made that as clear as mud. But when you throw mud at others, mud tends to get everywhere and into everything.

I thought I hade made that clear in earlier posts on this thread and others. It is never a Catholic that starts the attacks on a Patriarchate or Patriarch. It is always one of a few cetain orthodox who begins the attack on Rome and the Papacy and I am sure that David appreciates your defense of him even as I appreciate the reminder to be diplomatic.

:)

[sitetest]

Dear Catholicguy,

Wow. So I call a guy an undiplomatic, tactless schismatic, and I'm defending him. Talk about low standards. Cool.

sitetest

[Catholicguy]

Wow. So I call a guy an undiplomatic, tactless schismatic, and I'm defending him. Talk about low standards. Cool.

When I was Confirmed, all the Confirmandi jointly recited a promise our Local Ordinary desired. I promised, among other things, not to drink before I was 21, to not have sexual relations outside of marriage, etc.

While I cannot be sure, I think I made a promise never to respond to anyone who began by using, "Wow, and finished by saying, "Cool."

I am sure you will understand my reluctance to continue any further "dialogue" on this thread - just in case that was part of my Confirmation pledge.

Have a nice weekend :)

[a history buff]

It [the ad hominem attack] wasn't "UnChristian." It was funny.

My Catholic formation included the following prayer by St. Augustine:

In essentials, unity, in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things charity."

Words of wisdom if I ever head any. The church is troubled right now; hatred and bitterness will only make things worse.