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On Islam [Hilaire Belloc]
Catholic-Pages ^ | 1919 | Hilaire Belloc

Posted on 07/02/2002 12:01:55 PM PDT by JMJ333

Taken from "SURVIVALS AND NEW ARRIVALS"

There remains, apart from the old Paganism of Asia and Africa, another indirect supporter of Neo-Paganism: a supporter which indeed hates all Paganism but hates the Catholic Church much more: a factor of whose now increasing importance the masses of Europe are not yet aware: I mean Islam. Islam presents a totally different problem from that attached to `ny other religious body opposed to Catholicism. To understand it we must appreciate its origin, character and recent fate. Only then can we further appreciate its possible or probable future relations with enemies of the Catholic effort throughout the world.

How did Islam arise? It was not, as our popular historical textbooks would have it, a "new religion". It was a direct derivative from the Catholic Church. It was essentially, in its origin, a heresy: like Arianism or Albigensianism.

When the man who produced it - and it is more the creation of one man than any other false religion we know- was young, the whole of the world which he knew, the world speaking Greek in the eastern half and Latin in the Western- the only civilised world with which he and his people had come in contact - was Catholic. It was still, though in process of transformation, the Christian Roman Empire, stretching from the English Channel to the borders of his own desert.

The Arabs of whom he came and among whom he lived were Pagan; but such higher religious influence as could touch them, and as they came in contact with through commerce and raiding, was Catholic - with a certain admixture of Jewish communities. Catholicism had thus distinctly affected these few pagans living upon the fringes of the Empire.

Now what Mahomet did was this. He took over the principal doctrines of the Catholic Church - one personal God, Creator of all things; the immortality of the soul; an eternity of misery or blessedness - and no small part of Christian morals as well. All that was the atmosphere of the only civilisation which had influence upon him or his followers. But at the same time he attempted an extreme simplification.

Many another heresiarch has done this, throwing overboard such and such too profound doctrines, and appealing to the less intelligent by getting rid of mysteries through a crude denial of them. But Mahomet simplified much more than did, say, Pelagius or even Arius. He turned Our Lord into a mere prophet, though the greatest of the prophets; Our Lady - whom he greatly revered, and whom his followers still revere - he turned into no more than the mother of so great a prophet; he cut out the Eucharist altogether, and what was most difficult to follow in the matter of the Resurrection. He abolished all idea of priesthood: most important of all, he declared for social equality among all those who should be 'true believers' after his fashion.

With the energy of his personality behind that highly simplified, burning enthusiasm he first inflamed his own few desert folk, and they in turn proceeded to impose their new enthusiasm very rapidly over vast areas of what had been until then a Catholic civilisation; and their chief allies in this sweeping revolution were politically the doctrine of equality, and spiritually the doctrine of simplicity. Everybody troubled by the mysteries of Catholicism tended to join them; so did every slave or debtor who was oppressed by the complexity of a higher civilisaton.

The new enthusiasm charged under arms over about half of the Catholic world. There was a moment after it had started out on its conquest when it looked as though it was going to transform and degrade all our Christian culture. But our civilisation was saved at last, though half the Mediterranean was lost.

For centuries the struggle between Islam and the Catholic Church continued. It had varying fortunes, but for something like a thousand years the issue still remained doubtful. It was not till nearly the year 1700 that Christian culture seemed - for a time - to be definitely the master.

During the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries the Mahommedam world fell under a kind of palsy. It could not catch up with our rapidly advancing physical science. Its shipping and armament and all means of communication and administration went backwards while ours advanced.

At last, by the end of the nineteenth century, more than nine-tenths of the Mahommedan population of the world, from India and the Pacific to the Atlantic, had fallen under the government of nominally Christian nations, especially England and France.

We no longer regarded Islam as a rival to our own culture. We thought of its religion as a sort of fossilised thing about which we need not trouble. That was almost certainly a mistake. We shall almost certainly have to reckon with Islam in the near future. Perhaps if we lose our Faith it will rise.

For after this subjugation of the Islamic culture by the nominally Christian had already been achieved, the political conquerors of that culture began to notice two disquieting features about it. The first was that its spiritual foundation proved immovable; the second that its area of occupation did not recede, but on the contrary slowly expanded.

Few Conversions

Islam would not look at any Christian missionary effort. The so-called Christian governments, in contact with it, it spiritually despised. The ardent and sincere Christian missionaries were received usually with courtesy, sometimes with fierce attack, but were never allowed to affect Islam. I think it true to say that Islam is the only spiritual force on earth which Catholicism has found an impregnable fortress. Its votaries are the one religious body conversions from which are insignificant.

This granite permanence is a most striking thing, and worthy of serious consideration by all those who meditate on the spiritual, and, consequently, the social, future of the world.

And what is true of the spiritual side of Islam is true of the geographical. Mahommedan rulers have had to give up Christian provinces formerly under their control: especially in the Balkans. But the area of Mahommedan practice has not shrunk.

All that wide belt from the islands of the Pacific to Morocco, and from Central Asia to the Sahara desert and south of it - not only remains intact but slightly expands. Islam is appreciably spreading its influence further and further into tropical Africa.

Now that state of affairs creates a very important subject of study for those who interest themselves in the future of religious influence upon mankind. The political control of Islam by Europe cannot continue indefinitely: it is already shaken. Meanwhile the spiritual independence of Islam - upon which everything depends - is as strong as, or stronger than ever.

What affinities or support does this threat of Islam promise to the new enemies of Catholic tradition? It will sound even more fantastic to suggest that Islam should have effect here than to suggest that Asiatic paganism should. Even those who are directly in contact with the great Mahommedan civilisation and who are impressed, as all such must be, by its strength and apparently invincible resistance to conversion, do not yet conceive of its having any direct effect upon Christendom. There are a few indeed who have envisaged something of the kind. . .

I will maintain that this very powerful, distorted simplification of Catholic doctrine- for that is what Mahommedanism is - may be of high effect in the near future upon Christendom; and that, acting as a competitive religion, it is not to be despised.

Anti-Catholic Forces

No considerable number of conversions to Islam from Christianity is probable. I do not say that such a movement would not be possible, for anything is possible in the near future, seeing the welter into which Christian civilisation has fallen. But I think it improbable, and even highly improbable, because Islam advances in herd or mob fashion. It does not proceed, as the Catholic religion does, by individual conversions, but by colonisation and group movement. But there are other effects which a great anti- Catholic force and the culture based upon it can have upon anti-Catholic forces within our own boundaries.

In the first place it can act by example. To every man attempting to defend the old Christian culture by prophesying disaster if its main tenets be abandoned, Islam can be presented as a practical answer.

"You say that monogamy is necessary to happy human life, and that the practice of polygamy, or of divorce - which is but a modified form of polygamy - is fatal to the state? You are proved wrong by the example of Islam."

Or again "You say that without priests and without sacraments and without all the apparatus of your religion, down to the use of visible images, religion may not survive? Islam is there to give you the lie. Its religion is intense, its spiritual life permanent. Yet it has constantly repudiated all these things. It is violently antisacramental; it has no priesthood; it wages fierce war on all symbols in the use of worship."

This example may, in the near future, be of great effect. Remember that our Christian civilisation is in peril of complete breakdown. An enemy would say that it was living upon its past; and certainly those who steadfastly hold its ancient Catholic doctrines stand today on guard as it were, in a state of siege. They are a minority both in power and in numbers. Upon such a state of affairs a steadfast, permanent, convinced simple philosophy and rule of life, intensely adhered to, and close at hand, may, now that the various sections of the world are so much interpenetrating one and the other, be of effect...

There is no reason why its recent inferiority in mechanical construction, whether military or civilian, should continue indefinitely. Even a slight accession of material power would make the further control of Islam by an alien culture difficult. A little more and there will cease that which our time has taken for granted, the physical domination of Islam by the disintegrated Christendom we know.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: catholicism; catholiclist; islam
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1 posted on 07/02/2002 12:01:55 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Siobhan; *Catholic_list
le ping! =)
2 posted on 07/02/2002 12:03:52 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: EODGUY

3 posted on 07/02/2002 12:23:26 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: PA Lurker; kstewskis
bump
4 posted on 07/02/2002 12:26:34 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Belloc Bump
5 posted on 07/02/2002 1:55:07 PM PDT by polemikos
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To: polemikos
Thanks...and welcome to FR.
6 posted on 07/02/2002 2:05:50 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
This granite permanence is a most striking thing, and worthy of serious consideration by all those who meditate on the spiritual, and, consequently, the social, future of the world.

A fatwa on "heretics" and "defectors" is a powerful tool.
Death threats have a way of focusing a follower's mind.
There can never be a "moderate" Islam because of this.
Moderate words with double meanings (as we have seen), perhaps.
"Moderate" political agreements that are repudiated at their convenience.
All in all, Islam sounds more like the mafia than a religion.
7 posted on 07/02/2002 3:04:37 PM PDT by polemikos
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To: JMJ333; Antoninus; sandyeggo; frogandtoad; saradippity; maryz; Jeff Chandler; ken5050; Slyfox; ...
le pong!

;^)

8 posted on 07/02/2002 3:22:52 PM PDT by Siobhan
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To: Siobhan
hehehe...thanks.
9 posted on 07/02/2002 3:24:32 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Vive Belloc!
10 posted on 07/02/2002 3:50:30 PM PDT by B-Chan
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To: JMJ333; polemikos
This is so true and I'm glad you posted this. There are a couple of Muslim posters on this very site who believe "that Islam will one day revitalize Christianity in its moral decline". I paraphrase that but their intent is there. We need to be on our toes. They do not have good intentions toward us.
11 posted on 07/02/2002 4:14:18 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Siobhan
le pong aussi!
12 posted on 07/02/2002 4:14:34 PM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: goldenstategirl
Considering the advance of Islam towards Vienna during the Reformation, allowing the Reformation to take hold, we need to watch the current Church crisis carefully, as it happening along with an increase in Islamic culture here. We already see an unofficial schism between many of the Bishops and the Magisterium. Let's pray history doesn't repeat over the next century or so.
13 posted on 07/02/2002 4:32:12 PM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: Domestic Church
You're right. I think they are sensing weakness and moving in. Italy is flooded with Muslims right now as are many other parts of Europe.

We should no longer doubt their motivations and intent.

14 posted on 07/02/2002 4:39:03 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: goldenstategirl
Agreed....and good to see you. =)
15 posted on 07/02/2002 4:40:32 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: goldenstategirl
Oh, and on the trivial side...Belloc was handsome in his younger years! lol
16 posted on 07/02/2002 4:41:32 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: B-Chan
Merci!
17 posted on 07/02/2002 4:47:04 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Or again "You say that without priests and without sacraments and without all the apparatus of your religion, down to the use of visible images, religion may not survive? Islam is there to give you the lie. Its religion is intense, its spiritual life permanent. Yet it has constantly repudiated all these things. It is violently antisacramental; it has no priesthood; it wages fierce war on all symbols in the use of worship."

There was a program on EWTN not long ago that described the catholic conversions that took place in Japan during the 16th century. At the end of the program, however, it mentioned that the surviving "remnant" went into hiding. They were assured that one day a missionary would arrive on their shores and reopen a particular church. They would recognize the validity of the missionary by his good works and devotion to the statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary (or words to that effect). As I recall, for several generations, they kept true to the faith, without any priest to minister to them. This is their story.


Christian faith was first introduced into Japan in the sixteenth century by Jesuit and later by Franciscan missionaries. By the end of that century, there were probably about 300,000 baptized believers in Japan.
     Unfortunately, this promising beginning met reverses, brought about by rivalries between different groups of missionaries and political intrigues by the Spanish and Portuguese governments, along with power politics among factions in the Japanese government itself. The result was a suppression of Christians.
      The first victims were six Franciscan friars and twenty of their converts, who were executed at Nagasaki on 5 February 1597. (They were tied to crosses, the crosses were raised to an upright position, and they were then quickly stabbed to death by a soldier with a javelin.) After a short interval of relative tolerance, many other Christians were arrested, imprisoned for life, or tortured and killed; and the Church was totally driven underground by 1630. However, when Japan was re-opened to Western contacts 250 years later, it was found that a community of Japanese Christians had survived underground, without clergy, without Scriptures, with only very sketchy instructions in the doctrines of the faith, but with a firm commitment to Jesus as Lord. (I remind you that 250 years is a long time -- 250 years ago Americans were loyal subjects of King George II. The preceding statement is valid only until 2010.)

by James Kiefer  
 

February 5,1997 marks the 400th anniversary of the first Christian martyrs in Japan. The Japanese martyrs became Christians as a result of the witness of Roman Catholic missionaries who first arrived in Japan with the Portugese in 1543. The Jesuit priest Francis Xavier, whose mission work between 1549-1551 from Kyushu to Kyoto, laid the foundation for the future Christian church in Japan. In 1563, Omura Sumitada became the first daimyo baptized by a Jesuit priest. The first church was built in Kyoto in 1576. According to Martin Repp of the NCC Center for the Study of Japanese Religions, "between 1579 and 1582 the early missionary work was revised under Father Alessandro Valignano, one of the few who understood that Christianity had to loose its European flavor in order to become acceptable to the Japanese" (Martin Repp, "Introduction" Japanese Religions, Vol. 19 No. 1&2, Jan. 1994, p.1).
    Because of unrest among his subjects attributed to Christians, Shogun Hideyoshi issued in 1587 the first decree banishing the propoagation of the Christian faith. After a century of civil war, he feared unrest that might lead to peasant revolts. He stated that the religions of Shinto and Buddhism were the only religions of Japan. Nevertheless, for ten years Christian missionaries enjoyed toleration in a restricted way. After the arrival of Spanish priests of the Franciscan and Dominican orders in the beginning of the 1590's, rivalry and quarrel arose among the Christian missionaries. The conflict was also between different European nationals. In 1596 the "San Filipe" incident dealt a serious blow to the Christian mission. The Spanish ship "San Filipe" ran aground and its cargo containing a lot of ammunition was confiscated. The ship's pilot was said to have told during interrogation that Spanish colonial expansion was normally proceeded by missionaries preparing the way for military conquest. This argument was taken up very quickly by the Japanese rulers.
    In 1597 Jesuits and Franciscans were taken prisoner in the capital (the Jesuits were released soon due to their connection with the court) and twenty-six Christians, Japanese and foreigners, were executed in Nagasaki, becoming the first martyrs in Japan. The Rev. Sigfrid Schneider describes an incident from the martyrdom on February 5, 1597," On the way up the hill a nobleman tempted the youngest boy, Louis Ibaragi, who was only twelve years old to renounce his faith, He would not yield but eagerly asked: 'Where is my cross?' When they pointed out the smallest one to him he immediately embraced it and held on to it as a child clings to his toy." (Sigfried Schneider, Ofm, The 26 Martyrs of Japan, Chuo Press, 1980, p. 16)
    In spite of local persecutions, the Roman Catholic mission continued to expand. Finally, in 1614, Shogun Ieyasu issued the edict of persecution and ensured its implementation: churches were destroyed, foreign missionaries were expelled, and Japanese Christians tortured and killed. From this time on Christians went into hiding and were known as Kakure Kirishitan (Hidden Christians). In 1637/38 the "Shimabara Rebellion," a peasant uprising in Kyushu under Christian leadership, was put down. In reaction to the turmoil caused by this last attempt at survival, the government closed the country to Roman Catholic traders as well as Christian missionaries. The contact with the West was henceforth strictly controlled. As an annual procedure, fumi-e (stepping on a metal image of Christ or Mary) was performed and Japanese had to publically confess that they had nothing to do with Christianity. In spite of the most cruel persecution, some Christians managed to survive and worshipped Christ in secret or under the guise of other religious rituals or tea ceremonies. Persecution of Christians continued until 1854 when Japan was opened by Commodore Perry.
 

18 posted on 07/02/2002 4:49:46 PM PDT by NYer
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To: JMJ333; B-Chan; Siobhan
I love Belloc. He was a bellicose, unapologetic Catholic, my kinda guy!
19 posted on 07/02/2002 4:56:10 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: NYer
Thanks for the historical insight!
20 posted on 07/02/2002 4:57:23 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Polycarp
Absolutely. You gotta love the members of the church militant!
21 posted on 07/02/2002 4:59:38 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Smart, handsome and Catholic is always a good thing :-)))))
22 posted on 07/02/2002 5:13:57 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: JMJ333; polemikos; goldenstategirl
Very good post. Belloc was certainly right on this one, in many ways. The only aspect he passed over was the fact that Islam, because it does not separate religious law and secular law, has a much more iron grip on its adherents than Christianity (which does separate God and Caesar) could ever have. That is, it controls every aspect of their lives, with the threat of external force.

That's appealing to people with an authoritarian bent, or people who simply don't want to be bothered thinking things out. I read recently that many Mexican Indians in Chiapas, who had converted to evangelical or Pentecostal sects (which are usually quite authoritarian), are now converting to Islam. The odd thing is that Islam is being spread by the radical left - the head of ETA (Basque terrorist org, active in Europe and LatAm) in Latin America has converted to Islam, and the Islamic "missionaries" in Mexico spread a strange blend of religion and Marxist economic/social thought. Mexico even expelled a few of them recently, because they were a little too obviously tied in with terrorists.

But Belloc is very right on the fact that Christianity is being seriously undermined by heresy, which certainly makes it much more vulnerable to the Islamic threat. And the Islamic threat is a very, very real one.
23 posted on 07/02/2002 6:01:59 PM PDT by livius
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To: JMJ333
Remarkable article when one considers when it was written and our current world condition.

Thank you for the ping.

EODGUY
24 posted on 07/02/2002 6:18:51 PM PDT by EODGUY
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To: EODGUY; livius
Thanks for the observations, livius.

And you're right eod--his foresight is incredible.

25 posted on 07/02/2002 6:36:48 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Frighteningly prophetic.

I think it true to say that Islam is the only spiritual force on earth which Catholicism has found an impregnable fortress.

The liberals still think we can play footsie with these guys. Nuh-uh.

______________________________________________________

It is very difficult in our relativistic society to criticize another religion, even one as beligerent as Islam. But the virus in the computer is this simple fact: "Mohammed married a six year old and consummated the marriage when she was nine."

I've left plenty of people dumbfounded. "What? Is that true?" "Yup. Just look it up on the web." End of discussion. Virus entered into system. Reboot.

26 posted on 07/02/2002 6:46:26 PM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: polemikos
All in all, Islam sounds more like the mafia than a religion.

I think you hit the nail on the head. It's a mafia-like religion. Islam means "submission," not "peace."

27 posted on 07/02/2002 6:48:15 PM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
Six....? =(

Ammo indeed. Thanks for the info.

28 posted on 07/02/2002 6:59:38 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: EODGUY; JMJ333
Belloc had many insights, and this is remarkable for that era. During most of the 20th century, Islam appeared to be a ossified religion definitely on its way out. For instance, during the 1960s when there was a great revival of Eastern religions among Western followers, Islam (then) attracted almost no one. It was bypassed by people on their way to Tibet, India etc. Not until the 1970s did it begin to exert any real influence. No one, except Belloc, was prescient enough to predict this.

Belloc is a bit soft on the Christians of Mohammed's time, as one of the reasons for the rise of Islam was the intractable theological divisions within Christianity. They were much worse than he writes of. Issues such as "monophysite controversy" - about the single and dual nature of Christ, had caused endless divisions and polemics in Christian communities across the Middle East. In order to be admitted to Communion, Christians had to explain where they stood in relation to Platonic and Aristolelean notions of substance and nature. Failure to give the right answers saw you excomminicated. Then a new Bishop would arrive, with a different take on the dual nature of Christ, and the whole thing started again. Christians in the Middle East argue about these issues to THIS DAY. It is quite common to see open antagonism between Copts, Orthodox, and Syrian orthodox, over very obscure theological issues. It starts as soon as they meet. "Oh a Copt - you should ask where he stands on the matter of the divine presence prior to the resurrection and subsequent to the incarnation and..." One does not have to be an anti-intellectual to just give up on it. Thousands did, as soon as new prophet came out of Arabia.
29 posted on 07/02/2002 7:10:01 PM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: Siobhan; JMJ333
Survivals & New Arrivals bump!

Thanks for the flag.

30 posted on 07/02/2002 7:54:06 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
Thanks!
31 posted on 07/02/2002 7:57:40 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: BlackVeil
Agreed. I am of the opinion that Islam is predominantly more pagan than anything. il-Ilahi [or Allah] is the greatest of the 365 gods of Arabian mythology--the god of war, spear, and bow. Still is.
32 posted on 07/02/2002 8:12:00 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Thanks for the ping, Belloc is fantastic. I've got just about all his books. I sometimes end my posts with a few words I borrowed from him:

"All hail the New Paganism"

33 posted on 07/03/2002 9:05:06 AM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch
I too have many of his books. Of course, he, like Chesterton, was, falsely, labelled an antisemite but his book "The Jews" was very accurate and sympathetic to their place on earth and in society etc.
"In Catholic countries,
where ever I go;
the good times and the red wine flows,
at least I've always found it so. Benedicamus Domino"
Belloc loved Catholicism, history, wine, the sea....he was the real deal

34 posted on 07/03/2002 10:23:50 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
Thanks for the quote and the info., I agree, he was the real deal. I saw his picture in the dictionary under "passionate."

I really liked the red wine part LOL. Take care.

35 posted on 07/03/2002 11:21:12 AM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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To: livius
"I read recently that many Mexican Indians in Chiapas, who had converted to evangelical or Pentecostal sects (which are usually quite authoritarian), are now converting to Islam. The odd thing is that Islam is being spread by the radical left - the head of ETA (Basque terrorist org, active in Europe and LatAm) in Latin America has converted to Islam, and the Islamic "missionaries" in Mexico spread a strange blend of religion and Marxist economic/social thought."

Wow! This kind of confirms my worst fears...that the left has decided to use Islam as one of their modus operandi to undermind and destabilize Capitolist societies. This also fits with the influx of Islam in the US during the Clinton years. You'd think they would recognize that the USSR never was able to grapple with Islam within its borders.
36 posted on 07/03/2002 12:51:21 PM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: JMJ333
I am of the opinion that Islam is predominantly more pagan than anything. il-Ilahi [or Allah] is the greatest of the 365 gods of Arabian mythology--the god of war, spear, and bow. Still is.

Interesting, never heard that before. Could have implications for the identity of the anti-christ who worships the god of forces [il-Ilahi??] but would also probably be a convert not worshiping as his fathers.

37 posted on 07/03/2002 1:16:38 PM PDT by Fithal the Wise
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To: Domestic Church
Chuck Colson has been quoted as saying that during his years of prison ministry he has seen a big increase in the conversion of blacks - nominally Christian - to Islam.
38 posted on 07/03/2002 3:02:26 PM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
Remember when alot of blacks were wearing the "X" hats, for Malcolm X? We did see alot of "jailhouse Muslims" then, especially when they had a special diet: no pork. I used to love it when we'd ask their name and they'd give a new Muslim name, instead of their old, what they called "slave name."

Most of the jailhouse muslims just went back to paganism after they got out of the joint, at least around here, but they are usually very sympathetic to the muslim movement.

From my experience anyway.

39 posted on 07/03/2002 4:34:27 PM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Fithal the Wise
The origins of Islam stem from Judeo-Christianity but the Koran and Allah have little to do with the bible or the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

The Christians and Jews, who he tried to convert, rejected his teachings and he turned to the pagans of Mecca and Medina, as well as the whole arabian peninsula. The Judeo-Christian origins of Mohammed's beliefs were tossed aside and the arabian pagan origins of Islam were emphasized.

According to arabian paganism, there were 365 pagan gods, one for each day of the lunar year. The greatest of these gods was al-Ilahi, the war god. In order to build his new religion, Islam, on a montheistic basis, mohammed abolished the other 364 lesser gods leaving only Allah [pagan name for a monotheistic god].

il-Ilahi [moon crescent] is a war god. Islam is a war religion, a warrior religion and was merciless from the very beginning, with beheading, crucifixtion, and severing arms and limbs as common practice--and is still practiced in some more remote places.

From the beginning there has always been an eternal war between the house of peace of Islam and the house of war of the infidel non-moslem. Mohammed taught a strident ideology of war between "good and evil" i.e. Islam against the infidels. All who embraced Islam were of the house of peace, or in Arabic "Dar es Salaam" while all the infidels were grouped together in the "Dar el-Harb" or house of war which, according to mohammed, will not end until the entire world becomes moslem.

Within a hundred years after the death of Mohammed in 732, the Arab Moslems had succeeded in brutally conquering North Africa and Spain, the entire arabian peninsula and most of the middle east--Islam didn't start to fall until the middle ages with the emergence of the renaissance. Islam basically fell into backwardness.

History lesson of the day. ;)

40 posted on 07/03/2002 4:49:58 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Cap'n Crunch
You're welcome!
41 posted on 07/03/2002 4:50:27 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Cap'n Crunch; Catholicguy
"I really liked the red wine part ... " I didn't. Sigh. Sorry to be a killjoy, but my father was an alcoholic, and inflicted so much suffering on us. The Catholic community was very tolerant of his drinking - they always are - and blamed us for not being "supportive" enough. I often wonder about the role of alcoholism in these sex scandals which have plagued the Church (and which are IMO, merely a reflection of wider social problems). There is a strong co-relation between substance abuse and sexual abuse, but I don't see anyone mentioning that. Probably, they want to appear "puritanical", like mentioning the link between deviancy (homosexuality) and sexual agression toward youths.
42 posted on 07/03/2002 5:55:01 PM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: BlackVeil
"but my father was an alcoholic"
I'm sorry you had to live through that. I don't think that was what Belloc was referencing. Jesus drank wine as did the Apostles. Jesus was accusd of being a drunk; so was the first Pope - see Peter at Pentecost telling the crowd it isnt even noon yet so how could they be drunk (my own standard is to not get drunk prior to lunch).
I think it true the European countries that Belloc referenced had a lower rate of alcoholism than does puritanical America with its either/or approach. Wine was a regular part of the Mediterranean life - still is - and The "Mediterranean Diet" calls for its wise use for "medical reasons." But, who wants to take the pleasure out of wine by saying "my doctor told me to drink 2 glases a day?"

The Bible both praises and cautions us about the use of wine. Nobody praises alcoholism or sin. Belloc certainly wasn't.
It is too often the case that one either abstains or gets drunk rather than being schooled in how to drink in moderation. I taught my kids at a young age how to drink. They always could have a drink at any time at any age and they went through High Schol without EVER drinking and driving or drinking to intoxication or drinking without us knowing it.
Temperance, in Catholicism, does not mean no alcohol.
It is the virtue that moderates the desire for pleasure. We are not Puritans nor are we Pagans. The wise use of wine IS a delight and Belloc is absolutely correct in sighting its healthy and happy use.
43 posted on 07/04/2002 12:58:41 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
Well said.
44 posted on 07/04/2002 6:47:49 AM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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To: JMJ333
thanks for Le bump....le PEW!
45 posted on 07/05/2002 6:43:01 PM PDT by kstewskis
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To: JMJ333
No considerable number of conversions to Islam from Christianity is probable...I think it improbable, and even highly improbable, because Islam advances in herd or mob fashion. It does not proceed, as the Catholic religion does, by individual conversions, but by colonisation and group movement.

I love Belloc for his astuteness, wit, and not infrequently, humor. But this essay stopped short of Central Asia. There is one country in the Far East that was herded into Catholicism by violent colonization. The cruelty of Spanish-Mexican colonizers was legendary, but the Philippines stood fast in its newly-found faith. ( The Philippines was an Islam-pagan country before Spain claimed it as colony.)

The irony of it is that nowadays Islam is making great headways into the main population centers and converting large groups of people into Islam. It's a question of economics. It's easier to become a migrant worker in Saudi and Kuwait if one converts into Islam, than - remain Christian and tries to immigrate into the U.S. or Canada or Spain. The economic situation is so bad that everybody it seems wants to leave the country for greener pastures.

But not to lose heart - a great majority of the people (80%) is still Catholic and more staunchly Catholic than ever before. Please pray for the Philippines.

46 posted on 07/05/2002 11:29:46 PM PDT by sfousa
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To: Catholicguy
Thanks for your kind reply on the alcohol question. I understand what you are saying, and I agree that wine drinking in Mediterranean nations appears to be a healthy part of the culture. My own antecedents were Irish, a culture with serious alcohol problems, handed on from one generation to the next. Every culture has its own problems, and its own virtues. I do not know why some nations (such as the Russians and the Irish) have so great a problem with alcohol. It may even be genetic. We are products of own enviroment, and, as a reaction to my childhood, I can't stand drinking. Even more, I can't stand the alcoholic lifestyle - the dependency, the abuse, the habit of falsehood. I think this may be the background to some of these clergy who have been disgraceful. Just my thoughts.
47 posted on 07/05/2002 11:47:48 PM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: NYer
The first victims were six Franciscan friars and twenty of their converts, who were executed at Nagasaki on 5 February 1597.

Thanks, JMJ, for this post. The head of the Franciscans was San Pedro Bautista, OFM, who was the provincial general of the Franciscan mission in the Philippines. He is especially venerated in my hometown (Paete, Laguna, in the Philippines) because he laid out the map for the streets and set its boundaries.

There were at least three groups of Catholic martyrs persecuted in the Japan in the 15th century. The first group of martyrs as you described, was cannonized as "St. Paul Miki and companions" and given a feastday in the liturgical calendar as February 6.

The third (I think) group was composed of Dominican missionaries from Spain and France, along with Japanese native converts, and the Philippines' one (and so far, only) cannonized saint, San Lorenzo Ruiz, a married man, who served as sacristan. They were martyred between 1633 and 1637 at Nagasaki by decree of the emperor Tokugawa Yemitsu. San Lorenzo Ruiz and companions were cannonized - oh, maybe, 15 years ago by Pope JPII. Their feastday is September 28.

48 posted on 07/06/2002 12:02:01 AM PDT by sfousa
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To: NYer
Re #48

The first victims were six Franciscan friars and twenty of their converts, who were executed at Nagasaki on 5 February 1597.

Correction: Thanks, NYer, for this post...

Sorry.:)

49 posted on 07/06/2002 12:11:48 AM PDT by sfousa
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To: sfousa

(See my personal page)

However, when Japan was re-opened to Western contacts 250 years later, it was found that a community of Japanese Christians had survived underground, without clergy, without Scriptures, with only very sketchy instructions in the doctrines of the faith, but with a firm commitment to Jesus as Lord.

This is a powerful witness to the depth and strength of faith implanted by the Franciscans in that community. Imagine ... 250 years WITHOUT clergy or communion.

50 posted on 07/06/2002 5:15:48 AM PDT by NYer
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