Posted on 07/08/2002 6:45:15 PM PDT by narses
I'm sure that many Catholics have less-than-orthodox belief in the Real Presence. However, I'm sure that that has always been the case.
If you ask Catholics, "Is Jesus truly present in the Eucharist?", large majorities will answer in the affirmative.
If you ask Catholics precisely what that means, you'll receive a wide range of answers from the completely orthodox to the somewhat heterodox, even to the largely outlandish. Because Catholics have lost faith in the Real Presence? No. Because the Real Presence is one of the hardest mysteries of our faith to understand. Because they may have faith without a full intellectual understanding.
The studies you cite often confuse defective intellectual apprehension with lack of faith. Defective intellectual apprehension has nothing to do with how one receives the Eucharist. It is a result of the fact that the teaching is difficult to apprehend intellectually.
I've seen people receive very reverently in the hand, and irreverently on the tongue. And vice versa.
As to what is best for souls, well, my view is that it isn't dependent on the method of reception, but the effort that goes into teaching a child how to receive. I know that my not-always-terribly-orthodox Catholic high school used the occasion of the formal introduction of reception in the hand to thoroughly re-catechize us in the Real Presence. We were taught to adore our Lord in the Eucharist as we received.
That teaching stayed with me through dark days at the Catholic University of America where full professors of theology tried to dissuade us of the truth of the Real Presence. So, in my case, the introduction of reception in the hand was used by my religious teachers to deepen my understanding, appreciation, and love for Jesus present in the Eucharist.
I've tried hard to pass those lessons on to my own son, as this past winter, he received for the first time.
In the hand.
sitetest
I have thought about this before. I have a bad hip and walk with a cane so I would probably bow and greet him with the words, "My Lord and My God."
Loss Of Faith In SacramentsA major component of many stories of clerical sexual abuse, which have come to light in recent weeks, is the abuse of the new rites of Baptism and Confession, with victims charging that they were abused during "reconciliation" or in the baptismal pool.
Allegations that the sacraments were used to abuse of unwitting and vulnerable children (and even adults) raise concerns that some postconciliar innovations provided opportunities for sexual predators.
Indeed, the July 7 edition of Our Sunday Visitor includes a report, "Clergy Re-Examine Confessional Design," which revisits the issue of personalized, face-to-face Confessions in "reconciliation rooms" not only for penitents protection, but also for priests.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/712880/posts
What you are doing -- what every father ought to do is correct. Teaching your children reverence, piety and the Catechism. But that education is also a duty of our Holy Mother the Church and the unfortunate reality today is that Her Liturgy, one of Her most important tools, is under assault. Have you seen the problems the ICEL has had translating the Mass? Has there even yet been one translation approved by Rome?
That about says it all! I'm with you, narses. The reverence, aura and respect for the Eucharist is missing today. Oh, yes, one can make the liturgical arguments that the others on this thread, have already made. My guess is that they weren't around before Vatican II. The first time I took the host in my hands, it seemed wrong and out of place.
Surprisingly, no one has bothered to question the hands of the Eucharistic Minister! The priest washes his hands during the mass. What about the Eucharistic Minister? What were their hands doing before arriving at church? How often have I taken the host, only to taste perfume on it.
We had been discussing Communion in the hand. Now you're bringing up a laundry list of other sacramental issues.
I assume that since you're changing the subject, you're dropping the proposition that Communion in the hand leads to loss of belief in the Real Presence, which was the conclusion of the article that you posted.
Though you've said that this shouldn't happen, you have also said on this thread that it has happened:
"Under the old rules, ONLY a consecrated man could touch the Host. Now the Real Presence can be, and is often (at least in chapels near me and nursing homes in my area) carried about and distributed by women who are divorced, remarried and living in public sin. Valid? Yes. Licit? Under the Indult, yes. Respectful? Not in my opinion."
"Nonetheless, the facts presented appear consistant with my research and many 'modern' Catholics are no longer certain of the Real Presence..."
Thus, at the very least you implied that Communion in the hand is at least partially responsible for these problems.
But I'm happy to see you abandon that argument by changing the subject. ;-)
sitetest
The question would be whether there are a significant number of parishes where the Mass is "reverent" (solemn, dignified, canonically correct) in every other way with Commuion in the hand being the only item in question. Then one could pursue why it would be the case that faithful, loyal, orthodox Catholics who were receiving Communion in the hand did not in fact display signs that their faith in the "Real Presence" declined, as you and I have suggested that our faith has not faltered. I just think that there are plenty of other factors which have contributed to a decline in Catholic spirituality and sacramental seriousness. Sodomites at the altar and bishop apologists for them being the latest outrage.
Our parish church was constructed post Vatican II and never had a crucifix (or communion rail or any other pre Vatican II accoutrements). The back wall, just behind the altar, is adorned with one of these "Risen Christ" pieces. During Advent, the pastor covers it up with a huge blue cloth, covered with the symbols of Advent. During Lent, the "Risen Christ" is replaced by a simple wooden cross. The new pastor likes to stick things behind it ... like palm leaves or forsythia branches. I just keep my gaze fixed on the Tabernacle with the candle flickering above. That is the ONLY reminder that this is a catholic church.
"You're very good..."
Gee whiz, narses, flattery will get you everywhere *blush*. ;-)
"...but you commit one of the errors of debate ..."
No, I committed no error. You posted an article that made an argument against Communion in the hand. The argument made by the article is that this method of reception of the Eucharist is inherently bad, and leads to a loss of belief in the Real Presence. Your own posts in some cases seemed to support this argument. But some other of your posts seem to be satisfied that the impression is made that this is so, without having to commit to supporting the argument. It appears, at least at first, that you are trying to have it both ways.
Then, you bring in your laundry list of other items. They don't speak to the point of the article that you posted, that Communion in the hand is inherently bad. Thus, I assume that you have abandoned that argument, if you supported it in the first place.
If your argument all along has been that Communion in the hand, although not inherently bad, has been used to further another agenda, then this was the wrong article to post to begin the discussion. Further, in the context of the article and the thread, citing Mother Teresa's remarks only further obscures the argument you say that you are trying to make. I don't really know whether Mother Teresa thought the practice was inherently bad, or otherwise, but in the context of the thread, her quote appears to support the argument that Communion in the hand is inherently bad. And since you are giving the quote, at post #7, it makes it appear that, at least until post #7, you are still making the argument that Communion in the hand is inherently bad.
If you wish to make the argument that Communion in the hand has been used to advance an agenda, but isn't inherently a bad practice, then you ought to have started the thread with a defense of the inherent acceptability of Communion in the hand, and moved on.
"...you have yet to deal with the real questions I posted."
Why would I want to address any of your questions until I was sure that we had first agreed that the conclusion of the article that you posted and seemingly defended was sufficiently refuted?
Are we in agreement, then, that the conclusion of this article is false?
sitetest
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