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Was Anyone Saved at the Cross? (Limited Atonement)
Alpha and Omega Ministries ^ | James White

Posted on 07/18/2002 8:49:17 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage

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To: zadok
Was someone teaching that people that never believed in Jesus Christ are somehow saved by "Plan b"?

They usually hide their "Plan B" behind cute words like different dispensation of grace and everyone gets a chance at salvation. It's just like their semi-Pelagianism hiding behind Prevenient Grace.
151 posted on 07/21/2002 9:43:05 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
I don't think the arminians quite understand the serious gravity of sin nor the extent of it's effect on mankind.

They think God "owes" everyone a chance at salvation.

152 posted on 07/21/2002 10:04:53 PM PDT by zadok
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To: zadok; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; Revelation 911; The Grammarian
I don't think the arminians quite understand the serious gravity of sin nor the extent of it's effect on mankind. They think God "owes" everyone a chance at salvation.

Actually, that doesn't characterize what I believe at all. I believe in an unlimited atonement because I believe the Bible teaches it in verse after verse after verse.... There are many calvinists who believe in an unlimited atonement. Taking the "L" out of tulip makes calvinism more difficult to justify biblically, but apparently it doesn't make it impossible.

It is counter to Christianity to permit one's logic to prevail over a literal interpretation of the Bible.

For God so loved... the WORLD.... that he gave his only begotten Son...

153 posted on 07/21/2002 10:15:56 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins; RnMomof7
But the Bible says it is unlimited.

It is unlimited in that it applies to both Jew and Gentile. It is unlimited in its efficacy for regenerated and repentant believers. It is unlimited in the number of Elect which it can redeem.

Here's another. It simply says what it says. John 1:29: "The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.'"

Yes, Christ took away the sins of Jews and Gentiles, not just that of Jews. Have you never noticed how many times the apostles had to teach and affirm this? Clearly, the teaching that their awaited Jewish messiah had come and it turned out that His purpose was to redeem not only Jews but even despised Gentiles. The entire mooring of the early Jewish Christians was shaken. Their entire culture and religious law, the center of their lives and their identity, was torn away and Gentiles were brought in as equals under the New Covenant. Little wonder that they had to be told so many times that all believers were equal in Christ, that the Old Covenant was fulfilled and superceded in Christ, that their entire idea of proper religion was extincted by the Messiah.

No, Christ did not literally take away the sins of the world or every human being would be saved and many other scriptures turned into fables.

GW, are you a bible literalist? I am.

I would agree that I am a literalist. But certainly not in the sense you pretend to be. There is a type of literalism which reduces the Bible to nonsense. One oftens sees this approach used to support the rankest heresies in clever ways. Obviously, I am not a literalist in the sense you use the word.

Nor do I think you are as much a literalist as you feign. If so, then the passages you cite would force you to be a Universalist. And you are using all their favorite verses here.

Also, go read my new thread on George Washington entitled "Was GWashington a Christian?" and tell me what you think.

Given your scripture readings, I would expect that you've taken Washington's remark that "I cannot tell a lie" and transformed him into the original proponent of Wesleyan sinless perfection or something equally strange.
154 posted on 07/21/2002 10:27:22 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: zadok
God doesn't owe anyone anything!

God certainly doesn't owe me anything. I owe Him.

I have sinned against Him.

I have personally broken EVERY SINGLE COMMANDMENT of God MULTIPLE TIMES.

I am not proud of that fact, but it is true.

I owe the Eternally Just and Holy Creator a debt that I can never repay.

Come Judgement Day, if the Father sees fit to burn me in hell, He would be completely justified in doing so.

Don't get me wrong, I don't WANT to go to hell, but I know I deserve it.

If asked to answer for myself, I could only beg for mercy.

I have no excuse for my actions. I am guilty as charged.

155 posted on 07/21/2002 10:28:15 PM PDT by zadok
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To: xzins; zadok
For God so loved... the WORLD.... that he gave his only begotten Son... to completely atone for every single sin in all of creation from the beginning to end.

Now I see how you Arminians find Unlimited Atonement in this verse. BTW, since the Atonement is truly unlimited, why are you not a Universalist heretic? Answer: Because the Arminian is just a hypocrite. He limits the atonement making it so that it actually saved no one.

Calvinist: Christ made a perfect Atonement for sin for all the elect of the Father.
Arminian: [after snubbing his nose at the Calvinist] Christ man an imperfect "atonement" that was unable to remove the sins for those Christ wanted to save.
Calvinist: And I'm suppose to be the bad boy here? Who makes the "atonement" perfect and complete?
Arminian: Man!!!
156 posted on 07/21/2002 10:28:53 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: xzins
Does all mean all..do you believe in a universal salvation?
157 posted on 07/21/2002 10:31:51 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: zadok
My only Hope is in Jesus Christ.

I will put my trust in His righteousness.

158 posted on 07/21/2002 10:33:25 PM PDT by zadok
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To: RnMomof7
I believe as is taught in 1 Timothy 4:10: "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."

It is a very literal rendering of scripture.

159 posted on 07/21/2002 10:43:38 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
So does God save even those who do not believe?
160 posted on 07/21/2002 10:45:24 PM PDT by zadok
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To: zadok; George W. Bush; CCWoody; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; Revelation 911; ...
1 Timothy 2:3-4: "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Nothing strange about believing the bible is literally true. You just take the verses at face value. I've given so many now that are so clear.

You have not responded with one single verse that says: "Jesus died for a limited group." If you had a number of them that were extremely clear, as I have, I'm sure you would have posted them.

With all of the 4 point calvinists, I interpret these verses demonstrating an unlimited atonement just as they appear. Nothing outrageous....just simple reading and simply allowing the verse itself to speak.

161 posted on 07/21/2002 10:50:48 PM PDT by xzins
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To: A.J.Armitage
Wonderful article!!

Just from a quick scan I think this is one of the best limitd atonement articles I have ever seen because it is short and to the point in showing how clearly Biblical it is.
162 posted on 07/21/2002 10:52:33 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: CCWoody
I am probably going to have to add some of White's thoughts to the "predestination defense" article I have typed up on my computer and posted here once.
163 posted on 07/21/2002 10:54:20 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: zadok
I am certain that all those who reject Christ are lost. That is what I believe. Beyond that I always stand on the historic, classical, orthodox doctrine of Christianity. That is what I believe.

However, Are you interested in my speculations and questions? Or will you pretend they are what I believe.

What I believe is different than what I have thoughts about, questions about, speculations about.

164 posted on 07/21/2002 10:57:53 PM PDT by xzins
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To: zadok
There will be no unbeliever in heaven. This is especially significant in the argument about perseverence of the saints.
165 posted on 07/21/2002 11:04:13 PM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7
Intriguing thought there, Rn.

This thread is giving me a headache trying to understand the subtle nature of application that is being tossed out by both sides.
166 posted on 07/21/2002 11:12:22 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: xzins
But wait a minute, one of the Arminian pet verses says God wants 'all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.' Of course, this is in context of the elect, but Arminians ignore this.

I have not met many Arminians that actually say it is God's divine will to save everyone...they say things like God made salvation "possible" like you are saying. This way, they can skip around the obvious problem that if it was God's divine will to save everyone, God is a failure because not everyone is saved. However, by using this logical dancing, you are ignoring the obvious implication of the Arminian mis-interpretation of the passage in question. It clearly states God's will is that everyone will be saved. This is not even remotely close to God simply making salvation "possible" for everyone. There is an enormous difference between God making something possible and it being his efficacious will.

Ultimately, both the altered version of Arminianism that says "salvation is possible for all" and the few that just flat confess what their mis-interpretation of Scripture shows....that God wants everyone to be saved in his divine, sovereign will.....are false and Calvinism must be correct with particular redemption.
167 posted on 07/21/2002 11:22:30 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: xzins
Let's interpret some other verses xzins "literal" way.

John 3:26 "And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him."

How many people were alive at that time? 1.5 Billion?

Man, there must've been a HUGE line.

Luke 21:17 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake."

Woah. All men will hate believers? What about other believers? Are they not men? Will they hate me for His name's sake?

Matthew 19:11 "But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

Uh oh. Looks like Jesus is contradicting himself here.

How can men that cannot receive His saying, receive His saying?

And if it is given them to receive His saying, How come He said ALL MEN could not receive it?

2 Thessalonians 3:2 "And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. "

Wow. According to this verse ALL MEN HAVE NOT FAITH. NO ONE IS SAVED!!!! OH No!!!

168 posted on 07/21/2002 11:24:54 PM PDT by zadok
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To: rwfromkansas
To make salvation possible for all and effective for those who believe is the point of 1 Ti 4:10.

1 Timothy 4:10: "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."

169 posted on 07/21/2002 11:26:18 PM PDT by xzins
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To: CCWoody
I have been absent lately and my brain is hurting from trying to understand what the heck you two are arguing about on this thread.

Could you explain what the debate is over?
170 posted on 07/21/2002 11:27:44 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: xzins
patient with "YOU."....I.E..BELIEVERS, ELECT. Context is still limited to Christians.
171 posted on 07/21/2002 11:34:37 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: Dakota gal in Seattle
BTW, you are a Presbyterian denomination-wise. Theologically, you are Calvinist. You are both. Welcome to the fold, sister. It is not an easy road to believe Calvinism....you get mocked and scorned, but I believe it is the truth.
172 posted on 07/21/2002 11:37:24 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: zadok
ZADOK WROTE: Matthew 19:11 "But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

Uh oh. Looks like Jesus is contradicting himself here. How can men that cannot receive His saying, receive His saying?

The verse says, Matthew 19:11 But He said to them, "(1) Not all men can accept this statement, but (2) only those to whom it has been given. ...

That was in the NASB. Other translations indicate that you have misunderstood the verse and/or mistranslated the King's English.

One of the first rules of literal interpretation is to properly translate the scripture in question.

173 posted on 07/21/2002 11:38:15 PM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7
EXCELLENT post.
174 posted on 07/21/2002 11:40:13 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: rwfromkansas
So which of those christians is God concerned will be lost? After all, God is longsuffering, Not willing that any should perish.

Could any of those christians perish according to calvinism?

Of course not.

And it makes this verse weird from a calvinist perspective. "God is longsuffering to calvinists, not willing that any calvinists should perish, but that all calvinists should come to repentance." Since calvinists say that calvinists cannot be lost, then that entire sentence is merely a meaningless exercise in verbosity.

I hate having to argue from your perspective.

By the way, God wants ALL men to be saved. Do you believe that statement?

175 posted on 07/21/2002 11:45:33 PM PDT by xzins
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To: George W. Bush
Let me share some stories of what is going on in my congregation.

First, we had a man join our church today. He doesn't dress up or anything and wears overalls to church. He is poor. In fact, the pastor did a sermon on the need for us to spread spiritual wisdom to a world with its own wisdom....an evangelism sermon. Anyway, in fact, he came into contact with the church by walking into the church study seeking help to pay for diabetes drugs since the ministerial alliance of the town I go to church at has a samartian fund. The pastor decided to spread the Gospel first. And it turned a light on inside of this man and he confessed his faith in Christ. He looks like a biker dude and is someone I frankly would probably run away from in fear if I did not know he was in church. God does wonderful works......

Another story involves a man that visited our church a few times. Well, he is in jail now. He confessed to a crime he committed years ago and he is in prison for a long time. However, he seems to be open to God, though I don't think he is saved. My pastor tells us to pray for him and he clearly cares for this man deeply. He has visited him in prison a few times. God brought this man to us for a reason and great things have been done already, but I hope he definitely comes to Christ.

It is kind of crazy that God would do such "unorthodox" works in such a "noble and clean cut" congregation as mine. I praise God for it because I think too often church members get involved in their own little world and forget that there is a world outside in need.
176 posted on 07/21/2002 11:53:13 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: xzins
This verse simply shows common grace.
177 posted on 07/21/2002 11:54:26 PM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: xzins
"God wants ALL men to be saved."

No, If He did, then they would all be saved.

178 posted on 07/21/2002 11:57:35 PM PDT by zadok
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To: xzins
Yeah....God loves "the world".....mankind as a whole. It still does not support unlimited atonement since only the elect are the whosoevers.
179 posted on 07/22/2002 12:06:45 AM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: xzins
I understand the statement in proper context. I will not believe in a begging dog as my God.
180 posted on 07/22/2002 12:16:27 AM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: xzins
BTW, why did you insert Calvinists there. Of course none of the elect will be lost. That doesn't mean the verse supports Arminianism simply because it states a truth that no elect can be lost!
181 posted on 07/22/2002 12:17:46 AM PDT by rwfromkansas
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To: rwfromkansas
It is kind of crazy that God would do such "unorthodox" works in such a "noble and clean cut" congregation as mine. I praise God for it because I think too often church members get involved in their own little world and forget that there is a world outside in need.

Well, I can understand what you're saying. I am myself somewhat unorthodox, I would say. I don't know that any church would bar the doors if they saw me coming but it might not surprise me. I once led a life wicked beyond the ability of ordinary churchgoers to even imagine. But that's hardly unusual in a de-Christianized civilazation like modern America. Coming as I do from the wrong side of the spiritual tracks, so to speak, I would say that I was surprised at how worldly some churchgoers really are. No wonder the preachers look so frustrated. The longer they preach, the deafer their congregation gets.

It's sort of interesting how the Calvinistic churches can seem to attract the worst of sinners. One thing you can say for those sinners though: they know there is nothing of goodness or God in them and that only a supernatural work of God can change their lives. In that manner, the most wretched sinner has a considerable spiritual advantage over our Arminian friends.
182 posted on 07/22/2002 12:22:43 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush
"One thing you can say for those sinners though: they know there is nothing of goodness or God in them and that only a supernatural work of God can change their lives. "

Amen.

183 posted on 07/22/2002 12:35:38 AM PDT by zadok
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To: zadok
"I don't think the arminians quite understand the serious gravity of sin nor the extent of it's effect on mankind."

"Quite understand"? How about, "don't understand"?

In the past two years I have seen the non-Calvinist crowd go absolutely ape in their denunciation of:

Total Depravity;
Unconditional Election;
Limited Atonement;
Irresistable Grace; and
Perseverence of the Saints.

In other words, there is not one single point of agreement between us and them. There is the Gospel, and there is everything else. The lines are carefully drawn.

184 posted on 07/22/2002 5:14:37 AM PDT by Jerry_M
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To: xzins; zadok
"I am certain that all those who reject Christ are lost. That is what I believe.

zadok, note carefully xzins words: "all those who reject Christ". Ask him about those who don't get a chance to reject. xzins will tell you about "Plan B". Typical non-Calvinist logic, Christ death is actually meaningless to this crowd, since God will get folks saved some other way once He fails to get the Gospel to them.

185 posted on 07/22/2002 5:18:23 AM PDT by Jerry_M
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To: rwfromkansas
This verse is simple set theory. You learned it in math class. There is the set of "All" and then there is the subset of it called, "those who believe."

1 Timothy 4:10: "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."

186 posted on 07/22/2002 5:21:04 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
This verse is simple set theory. You learned it in math class. There is the set of "All" and then there is the subset of it called, "those who believe."

More literalism run amok.

If this verse teaches that Christ is "the Saviour of all men", then all men must be saved. If Christ is your saviour, you will go to heaven. Unless you Arminians invented a new definition of "saviour".

You realize you're saying that the damned souls of hell have Christ as their saviour just as much as any Christian does?

What a comfort it must be for them, as they endure the undying flames of hell, to know that Jesus is their saviour.

Can you explain how Christ is their saviour since He didn't actually save them from anything?

So far in this thread, you have supported a grace that fails to bring salvation, an atonement that doesn't atone for sin, and a saviour that does not save.

I'm beginning to think you really are a universalist.
187 posted on 07/22/2002 5:45:47 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: Jerry_M; zadok; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; Revelation 911; The Grammarian
Jerry, see my 164 & 165.

Reference your other post, I can give you what I believe based on the tulip acronym.

T - I do believe in Total Depravity. I do not believe in total inability or in utter depravity.

U - Unconditional Election. I do not believe it. I believe in a conditional election.

L - Limited Atonement. I do not believe it. I believe the atonement is unlimited.

I - Irresistible Grace. I do not believe it. I believe God's grace can be resisted.

P - Perseverence of the Saints. I do not believe it. I have seen some draw a distinction between "eternal security" and "perseverence of the saints." I have difficulty understanding the distinction. I believe that there will be no unbeliever in heaven. I believe that all believers will be in heaven. I believe that anyone who claimed Christianity at one point but then recanted that belief and afterwards claimed to be an unbeliever is, in fact, an unbeliever and will not be in heaven.

There are wesley-arminians who have subtle difference and some have major differences with me, but I am quite certain about what I believe.

188 posted on 07/22/2002 5:48:53 AM PDT by xzins
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To: George W. Bush; fortheDeclaration; The Grammarian; Revelation 911; winstonchurchill
1 Timothy 4:10: "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."

What is the mean of the word "especially" in the sentence. It means we are switching to a different (special) category. The language we speak requires that we find a distinction between the set of those who believe in the Savior and the set of those that includes both those who believe and those who do not believe. He is the Savior of all the world.

The only fair conclusion is that Jesus is the only possible Savior of the world. He is the only savior in all of time. He is the only Savior who has ever appeared.

Now, if I believe that it is the believers only who will be saved, then I am not a universalist. I believe that hell will be well-stocked with unbelievers. That is hardly a universalist opinion.

189 posted on 07/22/2002 5:59:16 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins; zadok; RnMomof7; Jerry_M; OrthodoxPresbyterian; A.J.Armitage; Jean Chauvin; rdb3; ...
You have not responded with one single verse that says: "Jesus died for a limited group." If you had a number of them that were extremely clear, as I have, I'm sure you would have posted them.

When are you going to give us a single verse which says that the atonement was perfectly applied to every single man woman and child who has ever been on the face of the earth. All you have done so far is give us verses which teach that there is no one who can find grace outside Jesus Christ. And you never even responded to what we Calvinists have said about those verses. Too bad for your "Plan B" salvations, huh!
1 Timothy 2:1-4 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You have brought forward a single passage which may be said to argue for "Unlimited Atonement." But HERE is where you commit a theological Error.

For you will tell me that this passage does directly instruct us to pray for God to effectually accomplish nothing less than the actual salvific redemption of "All men" without exception, every single individual member of the human race. But, in addition to asserting that God deliberately Wills the Salvation of every man without exception, and that His will is thus billions of times Overthrown, to assert what you do is very nearly to risk the Anathema in pursuit of defeating Calvinism!! For does He not tell us in the Revelation of Christ unto John:

Revelation 22:18-19 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

And what also has He told us in Revelation, than the certainty that NOT "All Men without Exception" shall be saved?

Revelation 13:7-8 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is a True Prophecy of God; What Heresy, then, is this: that you should advise us that Paul teaches Timothy to pray for nothing less than that this very PROPHECY OF GOD -- (that NOT "All Men" shall be saved) -- should be overthrown?!?! That God has Foreknown and Prophesied to Us that NOT All men will be saved, but that -- so you tell us -- we should nonetheless pray for this Word of Prophecy to be Removed from the Book of Prophecy??? For Jesus Christ has said, regarding prayers according to His Will,

John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

So if you claim that it be according to His Will that we pray for the actual Salvific Redemption of every single human individual without exception, then you are claiming that Paul teaches us to pray for the Removal of those very Prophecies of which Christ says to John, it were a grave sin for any to Remove!!

But if this is not a Right understanding of this passage (and it is not, for they may NOT set Paul to War with John and Christ), then how should we read it? Is the weakness in the "desire" of the Lord (verse 4) that "all men" should be saved? No, for this is an effective desire, both to Wish and to Will; indeed, this same Greek word, for "desire", is found in Romans 9: 18 -- So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.; and this is a powerful Desire indeed, by which He has raised up pharoahs and ruled the affairs of men and nations!!

But the misunderstanding is to be found, in the treatment of "all men". For if it is taught as meaning, "all men" without exception, then in this verse, we are being taught to pray against the revealed prophecies of John’s Apocalypse. But if the verse is understood as having reference to verses 1 and 2, which immediately precede it, then we see in this our duty to pray for Kings and all in Authority and "all men" without distinction; even as He is pleased to save "all men" without distinction; -- though not "all men without exception", for not "all men without exception" will be saved, as is Revealed in the Apocalypse of John. And there are numerous other passages in Scripture where this same Greek word for "all" is translated in this way:

Matthew 4:23--"all manner of disease"
Matthew 5:11--"all manner of evil"
Matthew 10:1--"all manner of sickness"
Luke 11:42--"all manner of herbs"
Acts 10:12--"all manner of four-footed beasts"
Romans 7:8--"all manner of concupiscence"
1 Peter 1:15--"all manner of conversation"
Revelation 21:19--"all manner of precious stone"

190 posted on 07/22/2002 6:11:37 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody; fortheDeclaration; Revelation 911; The Grammarian; winstonchurchill
I think it makes sense to pray for all people. Especially if it's based on an instruction from the bible. Calvinists use essentially the same logic in evangelism. They do so even though they don't understand the reason for the command. They do it because they're commanded to do it.

I pray because I think prayer changes things. God knows things outside time that we don't know. We are inside time for the very first time, so everyone's choice is a free choice. Every single person has a chance to come to the savior; i.e., their destiny is not predetermined.

You still didn't give me a verse that says, "Jesus died for a limited group." I assume you didn't because you don't have one?? I know I can't think of one. I can think of dozens more that demonstrate he is the Savior of the world and especially of those who believe.

191 posted on 07/22/2002 6:21:25 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins; zadok; rwfromkansas; RnMomof7
By the way, God wants ALL men to be saved. Do you believe that statement? ~ xzins

I believe this statement which is the Bible passage: oJ;ß pavntaß ajnqrwvpouß qevlei swqh'nai kai; eijß ejpivgnwsin ajlhqeivaß ejlqei'n.

Do you believe it or are you still bent on overthrowing Biblical prophesy?
192 posted on 07/22/2002 6:24:30 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody; fortheDeclaration; Revelation 911; The Grammarian; winstonchurchill; drstevej
1 Timothy 2:3-4: "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

By the way, God wants ALL men to be saved. Do you believe that statement?

It's a simple reading of scripture. I am a literalist and, apparently, you are either a quasi-literalist or a non-literalist.

Perhaps we should discuss DrStevej's favorite verse on unlimited atonement:

In 2 Peter 2:1, it seems that Christ even paid the price of redemption for false teachers who deny Him: "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction on themselves."

Millard Erickson notes that "2 Peter 2:1 seems to point out most clearly that people for whom Christ died may be lost....there is a distinction between those for whom Christ died and those who are finally saved."

193 posted on 07/22/2002 6:33:37 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
The language we speak requires that we find a distinction between the set of those who believe in the Savior and the set of those that includes both those who believe and those who do not believe.

What!? "All" doesn't mean 'all', after all? What has happened to our simple literalist friend, xzins?

No, you have insisted upon a literal reading that Christ is "the Saviour of all men".

You are saying that He is the Saviour of the damned and the reprobate and that He is the saviour of those in hell. Given your strange brand of literalism, no other meaning is possible.

The only fair conclusion is that Jesus is the only possible Savior of the world. He is the only savior in all of time. He is the only Savior who has ever appeared.

You might read it this way. I don't.

Now, if I believe that it is the believers only who will be saved, then I am not a universalist.

No, if you believe it is literally true that Christ is "the Saviour of all men", that must mean unbelievers too. Doesn't your "all" still mean all now? Doesn't your scriptural set theory compell the literal conclusion? If you are a literalist then Christ is the Saviour of the Elect. And the Saviour of the Reprobate, the Saviour of unbelievers, the Saviour of atheists, the Saviour of Satanists, the Saviour of Hitler and Stalin.

Or doesn't "all" still mean all?
194 posted on 07/22/2002 6:37:41 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: xzins
In 2 Peter 2:1, it seems that Christ even paid the price of redemption for false teachers who deny Him: "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction on themselves."

I've always read this as meaning that false teachers will be physically destroyed, that God will not tolerate blasphemy from leaders of the church.

This verse does not say that they, once bought by Christ, have lost their salvation. Merely that God will bring swift destruction on false teachers.
195 posted on 07/22/2002 6:44:10 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush; winstonchurchill; fortheDeclaration; The Grammarian; Revelation 911
The language we speak requires that we find a distinction between the set of those who believe in the Savior and the set of those that includes both those who believe and those who do not believe. What!? "All" doesn't mean 'all', after all? What has happened to our simple literalist friend, xzins?

Either you have misread what I wrote or I miswrote what I wrote.

the verse says, 1 Timothy 4:10 says: "...we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."

It says Savior of all men...especially those who believe.

The verse itself points out two sets. Let's start there.

Do you agree with me that it points out (1) a major set of all men, and (2) a minor set of those who believe.

196 posted on 07/22/2002 6:48:13 AM PDT by xzins
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To: George W. Bush; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; Revelation 911
In 2 Peter 2:1, it seems that Christ even paid the price of redemption for false teachers who deny Him: "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them - bringing swift destruction on themselves."

Your interpretation requires you to believe that false teachers, false prophets, destructive heretics, and deniers of Christ are saved. Are you really willing to go that far? It seems to fly in the face of what the very word "false" means.

Considering how you feel about me, does that mean I'm your Christian brother and that you should be nice to me? LOL!!

197 posted on 07/22/2002 6:56:09 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
Do you agree with me that it points out (1) a major set of all men, and (2) a minor set of those who believe.

1. No
2. Not in the way you are reading it. Your interpretation requires you to believe that false teachers, false prophets, destructive heretics, and deniers of Christ are saved.

Not at all. The verse describes the physical destruction of those false teachers and heretics who actually are saved. The vast majority of false teachers and heretics never were saved to begin with.
198 posted on 07/22/2002 7:07:53 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: xzins
I believe as is taught in 1 Timothy 4:10: "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe." It is a very literal rendering of scripture.

So then you are a Univeralist? You do not believe it is necessary to repent and believe ..the atonment is for ALL ?

Beliefs are unimportant

199 posted on 07/22/2002 7:09:57 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: zadok; xzins
So does God save even those who do not believe?

Answer the question..perhaps you are just one more Methodist minister....

200 posted on 07/22/2002 7:11:24 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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