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Was Anyone Saved at the Cross? (Limited Atonement)
Alpha and Omega Ministries ^ | James White

Posted on 07/18/2002 8:49:17 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage

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To: CCWoody; xzins
"Plan B" salvation garbage"

Was someone teaching that people that never believed in Jesus Christ are somehow saved by "Plan b"?

It seems like that is how xzins interprets 1 Timothy 4:10

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

If we read this scripture xzins way, we are led to believe that Jesus is the Saviour of EVERYONE, even those who do not believe.

Xzins, are you a Universalist?

141 posted on 07/21/2002 8:56:03 PM PDT by zadok
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To: zadok; xzins; CCWoody; RnMomof7
This verse simply shows that salvation is open to the Gentiles as well as Israel.

I was about to post the same thing, probably in a long-winded post of many thousands of words. Thank you for your brevity.

Many of the verses the Arminians rely upon are actually teaching salvation for both Jews and Gentiles. Paul, apostle to the Gentiles, teaches this over and over. Certainly, Peter teaches the same in some passages.

And John in his 3:16, always the final refuge of the Arminians.

They ignore the very Jewish nature of the early church and its leadership and the very radical notion of salvation in Christ, to both Jew and Gentile (Greek) which is found in many places in the New Testament. Paul and other early teachers spent a great deal of time dismissing the Old Covenant of Israel and the New Covenant in Christ of all men (Jews and Gentiles).

Oopsie, did I use the word 'all'?

142 posted on 07/21/2002 9:07:51 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: zadok; fortheDeclaration; Revelation 911; winstonchurchill
Again, there is an argument that I should deny what my own eyes see. How about: John 3:16 - For God so loved the WORLD that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It is impossible to disprove an unlimited atonement to a bible literalist. There are simply too many verses that tie together. Like I said, that's why there are so many 4 point calvinists.

It requires convoluted explanations to get around these verses. It requires a simple literalism to believe them.

143 posted on 07/21/2002 9:11:46 PM PDT by xzins
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To: CCWoody; George W. Bush
see #143
144 posted on 07/21/2002 9:13:41 PM PDT by xzins
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To: zadok
Xzins, are you a Universalist?

No.

145 posted on 07/21/2002 9:15:33 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
The atonement is unlimited.

It cannot be unlimited. You have apparently discovered a possible-atonement to go along with your possible-grace and possible-salvation and Eternal Insecurity.

Either there is atonement or there is not atonement. Either the death of Christ on the cross redeems a believer or it does not.

There are no theoretical atonements. An atonement which fails to save a man's soul cannot possibly be an atonement. The very concept is non sequitur.

Of what use is a possible atonement? Do you realize that you are saying that Christ's death actually atoned for the souls of the damned who will burn in hell forever?

NO! Christ did not atone for the damned upon His cross. He gave Himself for His own flock, not for the children of the devil.

There can be no atonement without salvation.
146 posted on 07/21/2002 9:16:56 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: RnMomof7
See #143
147 posted on 07/21/2002 9:17:09 PM PDT by xzins
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To: George W. Bush; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; Revelation 911; The Grammarian
The atonement is unlimited. It cannot be unlimited.

But the Bible says it is unlimited.

A simple reading of clear passages says Christ died for all. See #143 again.

Here's another. It simply says what it says. John 1:29: "The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.'"

GW, are you a bible literalist? I am.

Also, go read my new thread on George Washington entitled "Was GWashington a Christian?" and tell me what you think. Thanks.

148 posted on 07/21/2002 9:22:34 PM PDT by xzins
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To: RochesterFan; fortheDeclaration

fortheDeclaration wrote:

If that is case, why does the verse describe God as 'longsuffering'? If God has already decided who is going to be saved and who not, where does the need for 'longsuffering' come in?

God is longsuffering because he puts up with (suffers) the sin of the whole world until the last sinner is saved.

Exactly! The Gardener has dug around and watered the tree and cared for it and yet it bears no fruits of His glory. He suffers its existence because He knows that at the appointed time after He has called the last of the elect He fully intends to gather all these worthless trees together and gains His glory by burning them. He is longsuffering toward us letting them consume all the blessings of this earth. The creation is subjected to this futility and she groans and labors with pain. But the creation is subjected to it in hope because she will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

149 posted on 07/21/2002 9:27:39 PM PDT by theAmbassador
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To: RnMomof7; zadok; George W. Bush
Christ is a propitiation through faith....

Yep! 1 John 2:2 presents the Propitiation as a noun. There is another verse which says specifically how the sinner receives the benefits of the Propitiation; Romans 3:25. Only one who wishes to violently wrench this verse and those like it out of context can make this verse teach a universal Atonement.
150 posted on 07/21/2002 9:39:50 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: zadok
Was someone teaching that people that never believed in Jesus Christ are somehow saved by "Plan b"?

They usually hide their "Plan B" behind cute words like different dispensation of grace and everyone gets a chance at salvation. It's just like their semi-Pelagianism hiding behind Prevenient Grace.
151 posted on 07/21/2002 9:43:05 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
I don't think the arminians quite understand the serious gravity of sin nor the extent of it's effect on mankind.

They think God "owes" everyone a chance at salvation.

152 posted on 07/21/2002 10:04:53 PM PDT by zadok
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To: zadok; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; Revelation 911; The Grammarian
I don't think the arminians quite understand the serious gravity of sin nor the extent of it's effect on mankind. They think God "owes" everyone a chance at salvation.

Actually, that doesn't characterize what I believe at all. I believe in an unlimited atonement because I believe the Bible teaches it in verse after verse after verse.... There are many calvinists who believe in an unlimited atonement. Taking the "L" out of tulip makes calvinism more difficult to justify biblically, but apparently it doesn't make it impossible.

It is counter to Christianity to permit one's logic to prevail over a literal interpretation of the Bible.

For God so loved... the WORLD.... that he gave his only begotten Son...

153 posted on 07/21/2002 10:15:56 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins; RnMomof7
But the Bible says it is unlimited.

It is unlimited in that it applies to both Jew and Gentile. It is unlimited in its efficacy for regenerated and repentant believers. It is unlimited in the number of Elect which it can redeem.

Here's another. It simply says what it says. John 1:29: "The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.'"

Yes, Christ took away the sins of Jews and Gentiles, not just that of Jews. Have you never noticed how many times the apostles had to teach and affirm this? Clearly, the teaching that their awaited Jewish messiah had come and it turned out that His purpose was to redeem not only Jews but even despised Gentiles. The entire mooring of the early Jewish Christians was shaken. Their entire culture and religious law, the center of their lives and their identity, was torn away and Gentiles were brought in as equals under the New Covenant. Little wonder that they had to be told so many times that all believers were equal in Christ, that the Old Covenant was fulfilled and superceded in Christ, that their entire idea of proper religion was extincted by the Messiah.

No, Christ did not literally take away the sins of the world or every human being would be saved and many other scriptures turned into fables.

GW, are you a bible literalist? I am.

I would agree that I am a literalist. But certainly not in the sense you pretend to be. There is a type of literalism which reduces the Bible to nonsense. One oftens sees this approach used to support the rankest heresies in clever ways. Obviously, I am not a literalist in the sense you use the word.

Nor do I think you are as much a literalist as you feign. If so, then the passages you cite would force you to be a Universalist. And you are using all their favorite verses here.

Also, go read my new thread on George Washington entitled "Was GWashington a Christian?" and tell me what you think.

Given your scripture readings, I would expect that you've taken Washington's remark that "I cannot tell a lie" and transformed him into the original proponent of Wesleyan sinless perfection or something equally strange.
154 posted on 07/21/2002 10:27:22 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: zadok
God doesn't owe anyone anything!

God certainly doesn't owe me anything. I owe Him.

I have sinned against Him.

I have personally broken EVERY SINGLE COMMANDMENT of God MULTIPLE TIMES.

I am not proud of that fact, but it is true.

I owe the Eternally Just and Holy Creator a debt that I can never repay.

Come Judgement Day, if the Father sees fit to burn me in hell, He would be completely justified in doing so.

Don't get me wrong, I don't WANT to go to hell, but I know I deserve it.

If asked to answer for myself, I could only beg for mercy.

I have no excuse for my actions. I am guilty as charged.

155 posted on 07/21/2002 10:28:15 PM PDT by zadok
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To: xzins; zadok
For God so loved... the WORLD.... that he gave his only begotten Son... to completely atone for every single sin in all of creation from the beginning to end.

Now I see how you Arminians find Unlimited Atonement in this verse. BTW, since the Atonement is truly unlimited, why are you not a Universalist heretic? Answer: Because the Arminian is just a hypocrite. He limits the atonement making it so that it actually saved no one.

Calvinist: Christ made a perfect Atonement for sin for all the elect of the Father.
Arminian: [after snubbing his nose at the Calvinist] Christ man an imperfect "atonement" that was unable to remove the sins for those Christ wanted to save.
Calvinist: And I'm suppose to be the bad boy here? Who makes the "atonement" perfect and complete?
Arminian: Man!!!
156 posted on 07/21/2002 10:28:53 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: xzins
Does all mean all..do you believe in a universal salvation?
157 posted on 07/21/2002 10:31:51 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: zadok
My only Hope is in Jesus Christ.

I will put my trust in His righteousness.

158 posted on 07/21/2002 10:33:25 PM PDT by zadok
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To: RnMomof7
I believe as is taught in 1 Timothy 4:10: "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."

It is a very literal rendering of scripture.

159 posted on 07/21/2002 10:43:38 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
So does God save even those who do not believe?
160 posted on 07/21/2002 10:45:24 PM PDT by zadok
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