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Was Anyone Saved at the Cross? (Limited Atonement)
Alpha and Omega Ministries ^ | James White

Posted on 07/18/2002 8:49:17 PM PDT by A.J.Armitage

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To: fortheDeclaration
Satan is very aware of this (even though Calvinists aren't) (2Cor.4:4) because man must reject the Light that God sends.

2 Corinthians 4:4 says absolutely nothing about man rejecting the light.
{read verse 3}

41 posted on 07/20/2002 4:33:05 PM PDT by lockeliberty
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To: fortheDeclaration
***Yes, it would seem that Calvin himself was for unlimited atonment!***

Dr. Roger Nicole's article in Westminster Journal makes a convincing case that Calvin made no definitive statement on the issue. I have posted this before and can give the reference, IF you care to be historically accurate rather than apologetically oportunistic.

42 posted on 07/20/2002 4:35:11 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: xzins
Those scriptures in NO WAY prove that "God's intent was that salvation be made possible for everyone."

2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Who is the US referred to in 2 Peter 3:9?

That is answered in 2 Peter 1:1

2 Peter 2:1 "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

2 Peter was written to believers, please don't try to apply it to non-believers.

"If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me. "

All men in this passage is referring to ALL TYPES of men, from every nation, tongue and tribe, not all men without exception.

Revelation 5..

"9: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

43 posted on 07/20/2002 4:41:38 PM PDT by zadok
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To: xzins
Was the High priest a type of Christ xzings? Was the lamb a type of Christ?

Was the sacrifice the Priest offered for all man kind? Was the lamb slayed for all the heathan nations around Israel?

Or was it limited?

44 posted on 07/20/2002 4:42:11 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: zadok
"2 Peter 2:1 "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

Oops that's actually 2 Peter 1:1, sorry about that.
45 posted on 07/20/2002 4:43:30 PM PDT by zadok
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To: zadok
Excellent point...the lettes were all written to the churchs.....Thank you Zadok
46 posted on 07/20/2002 4:43:55 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
I am tired of watching scripture twisted from its intended context to support man centered worldviews.

How can anyone find hope in the Arminian salvation model?

If our salvation is dependant on a choice we must make, we are all lost.
47 posted on 07/20/2002 4:55:12 PM PDT by zadok
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To: zadok; fortheDeclaration
While the entire letter is certainly part of the context of 2 Peter 3:9, the first rule of context is the verses which are around (in proximity to) the verse in question.

7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[1]

I'm not a Calvinist, Zadok, but the verse above says, "Not want anyone to perish."

Now, if calvinism is true, which of those who have been predestined from the foundation of the world is God concerned will be lost in OPPOSITION TO his decree?

Are any of the predestined from the foundation of the world going to be lost? Is it possible for them to be lost?

48 posted on 07/20/2002 4:58:27 PM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7
Hebrews 4&5, Rn.
49 posted on 07/20/2002 5:00:53 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
Not responsive xzings ..I asked if the sacrifice that was offered by the High Priest was for whole world ....or was it only offered for the sins of Israel?

When they killed the Lamb was it slain for all the emeny nations of Israel? Was it slain for the national enemies of israel or was the lamb slaid for a limited people ..the Jewish people?

50 posted on 07/20/2002 5:20:43 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
"the first rule of context is the verses which are around (in proximity to) the verse in question. "

And why can't you seem to follow the context of the verses surrounding the verse in question?

2:8 is addressed to the "dear friends".

Who are the dear friends to whom Peter is speaking?

They are the BELOVED referred to in 2 Peter 3:1

Who are the BELOVED referred to in 2 Peter 3:1?

2 Peter 1:1 tells us who they are... "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

You need to bone up on your reading comprehension skills xzins.

"Now, if calvinism is true, which of those who have been predestined from the foundation of the world is God concerned will be lost in OPPOSITION TO his decree?"

What?

God is NOT concerned that ANY who have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, will be lost.

2 Peter 3:9 says "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

"Are any of the predestined from the foundation of the world going to be lost? Is it possible for them to be lost?"

No, God is not willing that ANY of His elect will be lost. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient to pay for all of their sins, it is impossible for them to be lost.

51 posted on 07/20/2002 5:28:02 PM PDT by zadok
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To: fortheDeclaration
It was this simple for me: God sent his son, because He loved me and wanted me to know me.

Because of my sin, I could not get close to Him.

Because of the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus and by my belief...I am saved.
52 posted on 07/20/2002 5:31:50 PM PDT by Dakota gal in Seattle
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To: zadok
"2:8 is addressed to the "dear friends".

That should be 2 Peter 3:8

Ugh. Looks like I need to bone up on my proof reading skills. :)

53 posted on 07/20/2002 5:48:23 PM PDT by zadok
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To: xzins
God made a covenant with the twelve tribes of Israel (Gods elect nation) at the foot of Mount Sinai. Animal sacrifices were offered,as God had prescribed Then "Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you.

Hebrews 5 through 10 is a New Testament commentary on Leviticus, emphasizing the priesthood of Christ and his atoning death. there is nothing there to indicate the sacrifice of the High Priest was an unlimited atonment .

The sacrificial system of Leviticus foreshadows tha sacrifice of Calvery

"On the Day of Atonement the priest made a special sacrifice. At this annual event, the High Priest would make a sacrifice for the nation of Israel as a whole. He would take two goat kids, one of which would become a burnt offering.

The second kid was a sin offering,( "scapegoat." )The High Priest would place his hands on the goat's head and confess over it the sins of the nation of Israel . Israel's sin was symbolically transferred to the goat. Then the goat was released in the wilderness, to die in the wild .

Both these goats were types of Christ. The first died for Israel's sins. The second, the scapegoat, symbolized the carrying away of their sin, where it would be lost and forgotten. Like the first, Christ died for our sins and like the second He carried away our sins "as far as the east is from the west" , But when that High Priest placed his hands on those goats he knew who's sin he was transfering. It was specific to the nation of Israel

All of this was peculiar to the agreement between God and Israel. It was not a general atonment by the Lamb. It was a specific atonment for a limited preselected people.

This type of Christ demonstrated a limited atonement

54 posted on 07/20/2002 6:08:33 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins; drstevej; Jerry_M; RnMomof7; Jean Chauvin; rdb3; Wrigley; Matchett-PI; Dr. Eckleburg; ...

God's intent was that salvation be made possible for everyone.

The very words "Christ died to save all men" seem to have an air of majesty worthy of God. However, it cannot be said that Christ offered atonement and secured the salvation of all men. This is the heresy of Universalism, vile and disgusting. The entire wording of such a construction then is reduced to this simple contention: God has made a "possible salvation" for all men. Please note though, that the very wording of this construction implies that a "possible salvation" by grace is not in and of itself a salvation by grace, but at best is a salvation in the use of grace by the man.

It must be stated up front that a "possible salvation" by grace is most definitely NOT an actual salvation by grace; the certainty of the salvation of not one human being is provided for. This grace led NONE to salvation. Before a "possible salvation" can become an actual salvation something must be done. Those who defend a mere "possible salvation" must contend then that man must perform that something for a mere "possible salvation" to become an actual salvation. The efficacious act comes from the man who can accept or stifle and kill the grace of God.

In order for the Arminian's construct to be proved there then must be some inequality in the mix that will determine the final outcome of either salvation or damnation. If grace is the inequality, then the Reformed theologians position is correct and Arminianism is overthrown by the concession. If it is in the efficacious act of the natural fallen MAN improving the "possible salvation" to an actual salvation through faith that he supplies, then salvation is not by grace. Salvation is ultimately by the efficacious act of the natural fallen MAN.


Is the inequality:

    1. the GRACE of God?

    2. the efficacious act of the natural fallen MAN?




Now, the Arminian will maintain that God has given every man a "Prevenient Grace" to overcome man's Totally Depraved nature. This is the Arminian's attempt to avoid the Pelagian idea that the natural fallen man is capable of fully grasping salvation for himself. This is part of what the Arminian means when they say that God has made salvation possible for all men. But the very way that the Arminian has constructed his unBiblical "Prevenient Grace" he has either made himself a man exalting hypocrite or he has just disguised the fact that he is still fully Pelagian his belief.

Now, it must be stated at this point that the man, prior to the offer of "Prevenient Grace" has absolutely nothing but his own natural fallen VIRTUE to use in his decision on whether or not to receive this "Prevenient Grace". Man without the aid of anything from God must decide whether or not to receive the grace that he will then use to create his own salvation from the mere "possible salvation" that Christ wrought on the Cross.

Therefore, the only reasonable conclusion is that the Arminian believes that the natural fallen man is fully capable of creating his own salvation from the tools that he finds conveniently left by God. What a Pelagian man exalting doctrine!

55 posted on 07/20/2002 6:33:57 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: fortheDeclaration; zadok
What the Calvinists refuse to accept is that while God allows mankind to choose for or against Him, He does not allow man to choose what the consquences of those decisions will be.

Naw! We just reject your Pelagianesque man exalting doctrines. Zadok, please see my previous post.
56 posted on 07/20/2002 6:36:02 PM PDT by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody; drstevej; Jean Chauvin
I can't imagine why you want to open this can of worms again. Dozens of bitter posts, countless conspiratorial FReepmails, Calvinists not speaking to each other to this day, Calvinists banned, etc.

And you really want to start up again? To what purpose?

If Jean and drsteve really want into the middle of all that, I don't particularly object. I suspect they're both too wise to tiptoe into a live minefield. And my own reading is pretty unswerving in any event.

Naturally, I've retained all the old threads and FRmails.
57 posted on 07/20/2002 6:57:09 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: zadok; winstonchurchill; fortheDeclaration
No, God is not willing that ANY of His elect will be lost. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient to pay for all of their sins, it is impossible for them to be lost.

Zd, it's quite obvious from calvinist doctrine that the folks who are to be saved are preselected before time. These preselected ones, then, CANNOT be lost, they cannot perish.

By calvinist doctrine you are saying that the verse actually reads: God is not willing that any of the ones who he has already decided cannot fail to exist and cannot ever perish, actually perish.

What is this: "The theology of the God prone to anxiety attacks?"

Isaiah 45:22 Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

1 John 2:1 "My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

58 posted on 07/20/2002 7:18:32 PM PDT by xzins
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To: George W. Bush
Can't think of any Calvinist that I am not speaking to.

As for me, I have stated my views on many ocassions and don't feel compelled to change any 5 pointers to 4 pointers. Ditto on the issue of single vs. double predestination. I do believe that one's view of T U I and P are foundational.

-- the compassionate Calvinist
59 posted on 07/20/2002 7:21:59 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
-- the compassionate Calvinist

That is wrong sometimes *grin*

60 posted on 07/20/2002 7:24:44 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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