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Did Communists Infiltrate the Catholic Church?
http://www.chuckmorse.com/communism_catholic_church.html ^ | Chuck Morse

Posted on 07/26/2002 2:35:57 PM PDT by narses

As a traditional Jew, I'm deeply concerned over the plight of the Roman Catholic Church, which I consider to be the largest and most influential repository of conservative Judeo-Christian values in America today. I believe that those of us who care about the furtherance of a moral society have a stake in the future of the church as a moral force. The American church is under siege today, not only from the usual external forces but also from the weight of its own internal contradictions. The scandal of corrupt homosexual priests violating the innocence of minors in their care is, to put it mildly, a contradiction in Christian and Catholic practice and faith. When did this corruption inject itself into the system and why was the situation allowed to deteriorate to such a degree?

Much has been written regarding Communist methods of infiltration. The standard method was to "bore from within" which involved Communists disguising themselves as loyalists to an organization they sought to undermine. Once gaining entry, they would gradually and subtly change the values and principles of the targeted organization. The process of "change" can take a generation. Communists have exhibited unlimited patience and supreme confidence in the ultimate attainment of their goals. Examples in America include substantial inroads by Communists into organized labor, academia, the legal profession, race relations, cultural institutions, and the government itself.

When planning to infiltrate, the Communists probe for an institutional weakness to exploit and, in the case of the Catholic Church, perhaps they perceived the weakness to reside in the all-male celibate priesthood. Did Communists send their followers, particularly homosexuals, sexual deviants, and enablers, into seminaries to become priests in order to foster a homosexual culture within the church? Homosexuals, practicing their predilections in an overwhelmingly conservative Catholic community, while given protection by well placed minded superiors, could certainly contribute to the undermining of faith in Catholicism and could unquestionably shake the credibility and moral standing of the church itself down to its very foundations. Undermining Catholic authority has been a clear and often stated goal of the Communist left. Speculation regarding how the Communists attempted to implement their program is reasonable and necessary in order to better understand the present situation.

Two former Communists, Bella Dodd and Manning Johnson, spoke on Communist infiltration of the Catholic Church. Dodd, an important Communist party lawyer, teacher and activist, converted to Catholicism in April 1952 under the tutelage of Bishop Fulton J. Sheen. Stating that the Communist infiltration was so extensive that in the future "you will not recognize the Catholic Church," Dodd also asserted that:

"In the 1930's, we put eleven hundred men into the priesthood in order to destroy the Church from within."

"Right now they are in the highest places, and they are working to bring about change in order that the Catholic Church will no longer be effective against Communism."

Manning Johnson, a former Communist Party official and author of "Color, Communism and Common Sense" testified in 1953 to the House un-American Activities Committee regarding the infiltration of the Catholic Church:

"Once the tactic of infiltration of religious organizations was set by the Kremlin ... the Communists discovered that the destruction of religion could proceed much faster through infiltration of the (Catholic) Church by Communists operating within the Church itself. The Communist leadership in the United States realized that the infiltration tactic in this country would have to adapt itself to American conditions (Europe also had its cells) and the religious make-up peculiar to this country. In the earliest stages it was determined that with only small forces available to them, it would be necessary to concentrate Communist agents in the seminaries. The practical conclusion drawn by the Red leaders was that these institutions would make it possible for a small Communist minority to influence the ideology of future clergymen in the paths conducive to Communist purposes This policy of infiltrating seminaries was successful beyond even our communist expectations."

As a radio talk show host and avid listener to talk radio in Boston, I've listened intently to comments by Catholics as the crisis has unfolded. Much has been said regarding the left dominance of the seminaries and a prevalence of the ideas of "liberation theology" which is a biblically contradictory Trojan horse within the Catholic gates. Establishment organs, such as the Boston Globe, continue to wring their hands over the homosexual activities of priests while supporting a homosexual agenda everywhere else. Hopefully, the Catholic flock will wake up and sweep the corruption out of their church in the same way that their founder, Jesus of Nazareth, swept the moneychangers out of the Temple.

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TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: benny; catholic; catholicchurch; catholiclist; chuckmorse; communism; communist; communists; devil; earthworship; fultonsheen; infiltration; judeochristianvalues; libertas; liberty; lucifer; lucis; lucistrust; marxism; newage; newageism; priesthood; priests; religiousleft; satin; socialism; un; unitednations
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To: narses; patent; Notwithstanding; JMJ333; Aunt Polgara; father_elijah; Antoninus; aposiopetic; ...
Is there a significant atheist presence in the hierarchy of our Church?

I make a distinction between "practical (or pragmatic) atheists" and an ideological atheist. The former professes a belief in God yet in his words, deeds and life in general he bahaves as if God does not exist.

The latter outwardly proclaims God does not exist. Sometimes the latter live exemplary, moral lives. Often they live the lives of Stalins, Lenins and Maos.

I think there are many of the former in the hierarchy, and few of the latter. Yet even a few of the latter, if they exist in higher ranks in the hierarchy, can do tremendous damage.

One note about activist atheists:

Activist Atheists cannot stand the thought or mention of God. They do all they can to banish His name and His image and His laws from all public places. They are literal iconoclasts, destroying the Image of God everywhere. Once they are successful with that they move on to try to destroy God in private places and then even in the minds of their subjects.

When they accomplish this, they realize the image of God STILL EXSISTS, to their rage and hatred.

For man is made in the image and likeness of God.

So atheists always and everywhere eventually devolve to the destruction of the innocent, for the last image of God is in the eyes of childlike innocence.

Atheism as the animating philosophy of the state ALWAYS murders its own innocent. It is the ultimate iconoclasm.

51 posted on 07/26/2002 7:46:26 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: Polycarp
I had not read any of it prior to your post. But it is eerily prophetic, to say the least, esp. the part about not kneeling and taking Communion in the hand.

But I am comforted in the knowledge that Christ will never let His Church be destroyed. We must continue to be faithful and strong.
52 posted on 07/26/2002 7:48:49 PM PDT by Litany
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To: Aliska
Personally I tend to think the book "AA-1025" is purely a work of fiction.

Perhaps it's more of a fictional recreation of actual events; a historical novel, if you will. We may never know to what extent Vatican II was influenced by, if not actually planned, the Kremlin.

53 posted on 07/26/2002 7:49:21 PM PDT by Loyalist
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To: narses
"Windswept House", should I read that?

Hmmm, it is a frightening fictional tale, yet many think it is the actual reality of the modern Church. Some think Malachi Martin was a prophet, some think he was a kook.

I thoroughly enjoyed it as a work of fiction. If you read it with that in mind, that's fine.

You'll have to then look at the signs of the times and decide whether, as some commentators say, it is 85 to 90% fact.

54 posted on 07/26/2002 7:50:08 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: Litany
But I am comforted in the knowledge that Christ will never let His Church be destroyed. We must continue to be faithful and strong.

Amen. There will always be a true Pope and a faithful remnant. Of that we have been assured.

55 posted on 07/26/2002 8:00:11 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: Loyalist
I wouldn't discount the theory entirely, and don't doubt but what they tried and were successful to some extent. The problem is that there are many unsubstantiated allegations which are very damaging. I have some materials which claim that Pope Paul VI liked to read communist newspapers at breakfast. Without unimpeachable sources, some of these people are doing a lot of damage by their possibly slanderous remarks, in furtherance of their own agenda, of course.

We can't really know for certain what goes on behind closed doors. We have to take someone else's word for it. Because the church has a rather secretive mystique, it is a perfect target for all sorts of theories and innuendos.

56 posted on 07/26/2002 8:07:14 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: Polycarp
Amen. There will always be a true Pope and a faithful remnant. Of that we have been assured.

Thank you, Polycarp! All too often people don't realize that this hope is what keeps traditional Catholics from despair--itself the flip side of presumption.

57 posted on 07/26/2002 8:11:58 PM PDT by Loyalist
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To: narses
My sister, a Carmelite in a teaching order holds two Master's degrees in education and administration. I recently had a chance to stay with her and her Sisters in Christ and I asked particularly about the crisis of so many Orders working independently to support their Motherhouse, instead of being contracted to the schools.

The answer I got was not too surprising, given the aura of today and may not hold true of ALL teaching Orders. They, in particular are unable to reconcile the parents influence and the stricter philosophies that they embrace.

In particular, my sister brought a rural Catholic school from virtual intellectual obsolescence to one of the finest Catholic schools in Louisiana. She was written up in the papers as some kind of Golden Gift to be treasured by all.

After a long and stressful "battle" with parents over the misconduct of some of her students ... she resigned as Principal and within weeks all of her fellow Sisters from her convent also left that school.

The wonderful convent of which she was Superior as well, a gift of an old family in the town, was given back to the lady and the teachers who lived there left that town. They thought it unfair not to have the house used by someone working in the Parish, which grounds virtually surrounded the convent.

She went back to teaching in another town and then was called home to California to care for my Mom until her death.

She is now a vibrant (although ill right now) committed Sister ... and both she and the other ex- Principal with whom she now lives have the same attitude and complaint ... they cannot compromise morals and faith with the parents in order to serve.

Perhaps someone else knows of other situations which are like this.

BTW, before my Mom needed full time nursing, my sister did some substitute teaching in California. Her most positive experience was when she was able to go to St. Catherine's Military Academy in Anaheim (taught by my high school teachers, Dominican Sisters of Mission San Jose, Ca) where discipline and right thought was never questioned.
58 posted on 07/26/2002 8:16:16 PM PDT by AKA Elena
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To: narses
"Homosexuals, practicing their predilections in an overwhelmingly conservative Catholic community, while given protection by well-placed [similarly]minded superiors, could certainly contribute to the undermining of faith in Catholicism..."

As I have stated before, THIS is the nut of the thing. The priests would have gotten nowhere with their predations and abuses if their BISHOPS hadn't been complicit. Don't get me wrong: I love my Church and what she stands for. But I have had real misgivings about the holiness and purity of intention of most of the U.S. bishops for several years. I can't say what triggered the suspicion, but it hasn't improved with time. I guess I want to say that it won't do much good to kick out and defrock the pederast priests if we leave their equally guilty superiors in place.

59 posted on 07/26/2002 8:16:39 PM PDT by redhead
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To: american colleen
As I read your post, I thought that it would be sad and ironic, indeed, if the Church watched over by Karol Woytyla, that fearsome old Commie-cruncher, were to be mortally wounded on his watch by the very Communists he has so decisively bested before. We need a LOT of very serious prayer and fasting for this battle. It is not the beginning of the end. But it might almost be the end of the beginning.
60 posted on 07/26/2002 8:29:52 PM PDT by redhead
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To: american colleen
I had a friend in Alaska who was taken with him. I read his "Seven-Storey Mountain" when I was in High School. It was a good read, but I was never very impressed with his later work, especially all his New Agey mumbo-jumbo and the free verse he was so fond of penning. I always felt a little "check" in my spirit when I heard someone cheering for him.
61 posted on 07/26/2002 8:32:12 PM PDT by redhead
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To: Aliska
"I can't find statistics, but most of the sex abuser priests were ~probably~ not converts. Most communists would have been raised outside the catholic faith."

I don't think the priests involved in these scandals would have been the sleepers. But their superiors almost certainly would have been. The sleepers would be circumspect in every way in order to avoid suspicion. But when they were consecrated and given their dioceses, they would have used what they knew to manipulate and mold as many clones as possible.

62 posted on 07/26/2002 8:36:44 PM PDT by redhead
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To: narses; Siobhan
Can there be much doubt about this now? And it's more than just your usual clove-cigarette-smoking, Lenin-bearded, suburban Communists with black turtlenecks, berets, and dark designer sunglasses.
63 posted on 07/26/2002 8:37:11 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Polycarp
it's hard to write off Sr. Lucy as a conspiracy theorist. 43 posted on 7/26/02 7:31 PM Pacific by Polycarp

Or the Blessed Virgin Mary.

64 posted on 07/26/2002 8:39:15 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Very good point!
65 posted on 07/26/2002 8:43:42 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: Aliska
"If I've met any communists in the church, they sure have fooled me."

Wouldn't that be the whole idea?

66 posted on 07/26/2002 8:45:28 PM PDT by redhead
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Comment #67 Removed by Moderator

To: redhead; Polycarp
Yep.

There are a couple of key goals involved with infiltration. One is to corrupt within, sowing confusion, creating social and moral chaos to cause Western civilization to implode, leaving a power vacuum and moral void to be filled by Communism (or whatever other ideology is intended). Another is to use the institutions and power of the Church to advance direct Communist goals. And, of course, it's just a very large labyrinthine bureaucracy for people who are up to no good to hide. Prior to, say, the 1960s, the hierarchical structure of the Church could be used in an authoritarian or dictatorial sort of way. A Communist infiltrator who attained a certain level of authority good give orders to people without question. Money could be hidden, stolen, and manipulated. Religious houses could be used to hide agents and so forth. It's a logical strategy. In fact, American and British intelligence agencies have not overlooked religious institutions as covers for various covert operations. One could certainly suspect that some aspects of the leftward turn in Church affairs was not just because intellectual clergymen had been convinced by the "brilliant" ideological arguments of socialism and liberalism. [irony alert]

68 posted on 07/26/2002 9:00:13 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: sandyeggo
I don't know anything about him either. However on the web site hosting his sub page it appears he and the site are associated with Medjugorje. This "apparition" is a hot potatoe issue with which I don't like to engage. Without judging the relative merits of the claim for supernatural phenomena, suffice it to say that not all peripheral ministries that have spun off from this "apparition" site are credible or orthodox.

The priest may be rock solid and thoroughly trustworthy, but I have no way to know for sure either way.

69 posted on 07/26/2002 9:17:39 PM PDT by Polycarp
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Comment #70 Removed by Moderator

To: Polycarp
Good answer.

It's up to bishops to police apparition groups claiming to have special messages or prophecies. Legitimate supernatural events are sometimes obscured by other kooky or demonic distractions which surround authentic spiritual phenomena. No way to tell for sure just based on accounts in newspapers and magazines. It's unfortunate, of course, if anyone gets lured into something false. Just bashing the victims, as some religious vigilantes do, usually only spreads more discord and confusion.

71 posted on 07/26/2002 9:53:14 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: redhead
Wouldn't that be the whole idea?

I usually can spot 'em from a mile away. Don't they all carry hammers and sickles and that bulge in their jacket pocket would be the "Communist Manifesto" they are required to carry close to their hearts. And they always wear red no matter what liturgical season we're in. That's how you spot 'em.

72 posted on 07/26/2002 9:59:20 PM PDT by Aliska
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To: sandyeggo
"All these years later, though, I would wonder how centrally organized it would be."

Well that's just it. Communism is dying out. The replacement is Modernism. And there is a similarity of course between the two. However the Modernists are not as monolithic as the Communists. I mean where is the Modernists headquarters? Who is the president and leader of the Modernists? It's just sort of vague as to how they are organised, if they are. The Communists had a goal of a worker's state and no private property. But what are the Modernists really trying to do? What ultimately is their vision for the world?

73 posted on 07/26/2002 10:45:42 PM PDT by Theresa
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To: Litany; narses; Siobhan; livius; Domestic Church
About Merton, "I think Weakland found his body..." That is a funny detail. Merton died in an accident, was electroucuted by an appliance, while on a trip to a conference in Asia.

Like livius, I am suspicious of conspiracy theories especially about "infiltrators", because it is all so paranoid. However, some rather serious allegatations about the Catholic church, which I initially dismissed (indeed, laughed at) have been shown to be not wholly baseless.

I know this sounds nutty, but I have heard rumours of satanic practices in the clergy, and also masonic rings. The name of Antonio Bugnini has been mentioned in regard to this - whether fairly or not, I don't know. But in my own research into an article on police corruption in Australia, I was astonished to find that a homosexual ring in NSW, which included several highly-placed Catholic clergy, had apparently also been involved in satanic practices. Moreover, these men all died in violent deaths (suicides and murders) before the matter could fully be investigated.

On the topic of infiltrators, would not the Communists have infiltrated other religions as well? They would have found it more easy to get into the Orthodox Church, surely. But they were quite untouched by all this liturical "reform". Just try not kneeling and tossing Holy Communion around in an Orthodox Church ...

Finally, there are other religions. In Islam the Shia clergy always maintained that attempts were made to infiltrate their seminaries, by both Communists and the CIA, during the post-war era. They had various means of restricting this, including a strong insistence upon the cultural basis of their religion - clerical dress etc.
74 posted on 07/27/2002 12:42:15 AM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: Aliska
"If I met communists in the church,you could fool me."

They wouldn't have been much as far as communists are concerned if they didn't fool you and me. However, whenever I run across "liberation theology" communism jumps right to the fore. It certainly was and is, in the church. Do you agree?

Godspeed, The Dilg

75 posted on 07/27/2002 3:03:05 AM PDT by thedilg
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To: BlackVeil
would not the Communists have infiltrated other religions as well?

Not nearly so effective: the Catholic Church is worldwide and hierarchical, so any negative influence could be spread further. There is not one Orthodox church -- the Orthodox churches are national and no one is authorized to speak "with one voice" for all of them.

76 posted on 07/27/2002 3:10:16 AM PDT by maryz
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To: redhead
Amen, You said it so much better than my post,75.

Godspeed, Amen

77 posted on 07/27/2002 3:15:22 AM PDT by thedilg
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To: american colleen; Litany
"Once I found a rather detailed story about Bella Dodd..."

If you still have the link please post it...just tell folks it's for discussion but they'll need their salt shakers,lol. We should be able to pick through it. Isn't Pope John XXIII Blessed now? (So hard to keep up.)

About Merton, I always liked what I read but I read him simultaneously with St.John of the Cross, St.Therese, and the CCC when it came out...maybe his writings need to be couched in Carmelite tradition? Or maybe I just liked the sprinkling of Carmelite thought. I never thought of him as a blatant socialist but you are right about the leaning leftwards in his thought. Do you think Weakland might have liked the cachet of Merton or found it politically correct and useful? Do you think he actually knew him to any degree? This is the first link I've heard between these two.
78 posted on 07/27/2002 3:16:35 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: Litany
"I think Weakland found his body..." Now that is creepy!
79 posted on 07/27/2002 3:19:57 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: Aliska
Maybe we should blame it on the Democrats ;-).

Well we know they are socialists.
80 posted on 07/27/2002 3:22:38 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: Theresa
"What ultimately is their vision for the world."

Maybe Al Gore said it well for them. Paraphrased, "An ideal world would have 250,000,000 million people, certainly not more than 500,000,000.")

This would give the elite plenty of playroom. So far as I know he never mentioned where the 6 billion other people would go.

Godspeed, The Dilg

81 posted on 07/27/2002 3:29:19 AM PDT by thedilg
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To: Polycarp
"You might find yourself branded an extreme trad schismatic integrist."

To which I will retort that I am an old fogey with youngins' following the Magisterium (that's it, Polycarp...we're just young & old fogeys.)
82 posted on 07/27/2002 3:30:19 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: AKA Elena
"Perhaps someone else knows of other situations which are like this."

There was a womens college, St.Joseph's near Mount St.Mary's in Emmittsburg Md, that closed several decades ago because the good Sisters would not compromise either.
83 posted on 07/27/2002 4:26:09 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: thedilg
"This would give the elite plenty of playroom. So far as I know he never mentioned where the 6 billion other people would go."

Well, the big cheese in our current Dept of Defense (Rumsfeld) used to be in population control 30 years ago.
84 posted on 07/27/2002 4:36:24 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: narses
More of the same from Narses. Always sowing doubt, discord and confusion. EVERYTHING IS EVIL, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS FAILED. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES.....

LOL. Narses, you are posting these attacks so frequently and so closely together that your unspoken agenda is being revealed...careful :)

85 posted on 07/27/2002 5:09:35 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Salvation
BTW, you find the darndest articles. Ever look for anything positivie about the Catholic Church?

To ask the question is to answer it. Everyone can see what he is doing...

86 posted on 07/27/2002 5:11:27 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Desdemona
I don't care when this was written. It's scary.

Then it acheived its intent. Ask yourself why narses specialises in these posts.

87 posted on 07/27/2002 5:13:33 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Litany
I had not read any of it prior to your post. But it is eerily prophetic, to say the least, esp. the part about not kneeling and taking Communion in the hand.

In the early Church one was FORBIDDEN to kneel at Mass and one received Communion in the hand. I guess this Communist Conspiracy is more insidious than we initially thought. It predated the Communist Revolution by nearly 19 Centuries

88 posted on 07/27/2002 5:19:53 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Loyalist
We may never know to what extent Vatican II was influenced by, if not actually planned, the Kremlin.

It is sad to realise you think that. An Ecumenical Council was planned by the Commies? Good Lord, I think your tinfoil hat has fallen off

89 posted on 07/27/2002 5:22:17 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
Dear Catholicguy,

"In the early Church one was FORBIDDEN to kneel at Mass and one received Communion in the hand. I guess this Communist Conspiracy is more insidious than we initially thought. It predated the Communist Revolution by nearly 19 Centuries."

Shhh! Don't tell! The communists will know you're on to them!

sitetest

90 posted on 07/27/2002 5:23:26 AM PDT by sitetest
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To: sandyeggo
Thanks - re: Medjugorje, I am in agreement with you.

Medj is a fraud. The local Bishop (and his oredecessor) have both said, in writing, that there is no evidence of an apparition and both have said the "seers" have lied to them

91 posted on 07/27/2002 5:25:57 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
Where in the world did you ever get the idea that you were forbidden to kneel in the early church?

Godspeed, The Dilg

92 posted on 07/27/2002 5:51:26 AM PDT by thedilg
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To: Domestic Church
The world is full of population control people. However, none are so transparently evil as to advocate a world of 500,000,000 million people or less. The implications are staggering.

I have never heard this about Rumsfeld. Do you know haw Rumsfeld feels about Gore's position?

Godspeed, The Dilg

93 posted on 07/27/2002 6:02:36 AM PDT by thedilg
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To: thedilg
Where in the world did you ever get the idea that you were forbidden to kneel in the early church?

The First Council of Nicea 325 a.d. in the 20th canon forbade kneeling

94 posted on 07/27/2002 6:17:55 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
Forgot Tertullian also. In 211 a.d., in "The Crown," he says "We regard it as unlawful to fast or worship on our knees on the Lord's day"
95 posted on 07/27/2002 6:20:46 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
"I don't care when this was written. It's scary.
Then it acheived its intent. Ask yourself why narses specialises in these posts."

Well, fear is part of it. I don't know narses well enough to say. But, it's very obvious evil has more faces than any of us can imagine. And the truth, yes, is stranger then fiction.

Is Communism a conspiracy? I know theories on this aren't permitted on this forum, so I'll give you the short answer: I believe yes.

Sorry to be snippy. Haven't had coffee, yet.
96 posted on 07/27/2002 6:28:15 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Catholicguy
EVERYTHING IS EVIL, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS FAILED. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES.....

Except, of course, I never said that. Your persisntent attacks on me grow wearisome. I have seen references here for weeks about an infiltration and about the testimony before the HUAC. I kept asking for documentation. When I saw the most recent reference, I chose to look on the 'net and I found this. Since other have already expressed an interest and this article appeared to have facts that could be checked, I posted it. Your words, not mine, are the ones sowing doubt here.

97 posted on 07/27/2002 6:54:14 AM PDT by narses
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To: thedilg
Some early churches had no pews. Standing was (and in some places still is) seen as a sign of respect. When an officer enters the room, enlisted men stand, for example.
98 posted on 07/27/2002 6:56:19 AM PDT by narses
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
Thank you. I couldn't quite put it into words. This is absolutely possible. Des
99 posted on 07/27/2002 7:09:23 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: american colleen
Cardinal Weakland? He was NEVER a Cardinal! Just a retired Archbishop.
100 posted on 07/27/2002 7:13:53 AM PDT by Charles_Bingley
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