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MAN OF THE SHROUD
Various ^ | August 2002

Posted on 08/03/2002 6:33:43 AM PDT by NYer

The Shroud of Turin is a centuries old linen cloth that bears the image of a crucified man. A man that millions believe to be Jesus of Nazareth. Is it really the cloth that wrapped his crucified body, or is it simply a medieval forgery, a hoax perpetrated by some clever artist? Modern, twentieth century science has completed hundreds of thousands of hours of detailed study and intense research on the Shroud. It is, in fact, the single most studied artifact in human history, and we know more about it today than we ever have before. And yet, the controversy still rages.

Arguments against the Shroud's authenticity are prima facia, supported by carbon 14 dating and a prevailing view of the way things are in the world. On the other hand, the case for authenticity is a compelling preponderance of scientific and historic evidence. So daunting is the evidence that we can only wonder if, as  postmodernists suggest, "no such thing as objective truth exists, that historic reality is an inherently enigmatic and endlessly negotiable bundle of free-floating perceptions."1 The alternative is to consider, as C. S. Lewis contends: rare exceptions to nature are possible. 

On this hot and sultry day in August, I decided to post this thread for those who enjoy mystery, adventure and the thrill of discovery. There are many web sites devoted to this topic. I suggest you begin here:

SHROUD OF TURIN



TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: shroudofturin
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1 posted on 08/03/2002 6:33:43 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Siobhan; american colleen; sinkspur; Aliska; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp; narses; ...


Feast of the Holy Shroud, May 4
This feast is mainly celebrated in Europe since 1506

An Office and Mass "de Sancta Sindone" was formally approved by Julius II in the Bull "Romanus Pontifex" of 25 April, 1506, in the course of which the pope speaks of "that most famous shroud in which our Saviour was wrapped when He lay in the tomb and which is now honourably and devoutly preserved in a silver casket".              (Older Catholic Encyclopedia)

 



2 posted on 08/03/2002 6:38:17 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
I've heard/seen all this before, but it bears repeating. Most people I know, even Catholics, believe it to be a hoax. I don't think so. After working with archival artifacts, I just think that too much is over looked when it's studied, the fire being the big one. The canister melted and it survived. Think about it.
3 posted on 08/03/2002 7:08:36 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Desdemona
I don't either. Click on the link. If even some of the evidence presented there is not enough to sway the most jaded individual, then nothing will. For example: The Sudarium of Oviedo, a smaller cloth napkin, was placed over the face and about the head of the same man whose blood stains are on the Shroud. 

Recent Historical Investigations on the Sudarium of Oveido," published by Mark Guscin, a member of the multi-disciplined Investigation Team of the Centro Español de Sindonología and the British Society for the Turin Shroud, summarized the forensic findings to date. Here are some highlights of that report:

There are many points of coincidence between all these points and the Shroud of Turin - the blood group, the way the corpse was tortured and died, and the macroscopic overlay of the stains on each cloth. This is especially notable in that the blood on the sudarium shed in life, as opposed to post mortem, corresponds exactly in blood group, blood type and surface area to those stains on the Shroud on the nape of the neck. If it is clear that the two cloths must have covered the same corpse, and this conclusion is inevitable from all the studies carried out up to date, and if the history of the sudarium can be trustworthily extended back beyond the fourteenth century, which is often referred to as the Shroud's first documented historical appearance, then this would take the Shroud back to at least the earliest dates of the sudarium's known history. The ark of relics and the sudarium have without any doubt at all been in Spain since the beginning of the seventh century, and the history recorded in various manuscripts from various times and geographical areas take it all the way back to Jerusalem in the first century. The importance of this for Shroud history cannot be overstressed.
4 posted on 08/03/2002 7:53:17 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
Let's put it this way---have your nonbeliever friends read "The Ressurection of the Shroud". If you haven't read it, read it. The Shroud "test" was fixed; IMHO it's real.
5 posted on 08/03/2002 7:54:59 AM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: NYer
The shroud is not christ.
6 posted on 08/03/2002 7:55:46 AM PDT by RMrattlesnake
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To: NYer
The most exhilarating finding is when they examined the "eyes" of the shroud they found that coins had been placed over the eyes of the body. This was a common Jewish custom at the time.

Using an electron microscope, they found that they could make out the letters "UCAI" on the coins(called leptons); the letters "UCAI" were part of a roman word that was only inscribed on coins issued by--get this--Pontius Pilate in upper Palestine between 29-31 A.D.

7 posted on 08/03/2002 7:58:35 AM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: RMrattlesnake
The shroud is not christ.

Correct, it is a piece of cloth bearing the image of a man who was subjected to the same persecution and crucifixion as Christ.

Have you visited the link? What observations are you willing to share with the other posters on this thread. If you are only going to make abject statements, then it would be the equivalent of me saying: RMrattlesnake is not real.

8 posted on 08/03/2002 8:06:50 AM PDT by NYer
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To: HumanaeVitae
The most exhilarating finding is when they examined the "eyes" of the shroud they found that coins had been placed over the eyes of the body.

Though the lepta (plural of lepton) minted in Palestine were Roman produced coins, the inscription of Tiberius Caesar would have been written in Greek as TIBERIOU KAISAROS. Was the C, where a K was expected, a misspelling? This was a problem that seemed to preclude positive identification until an actual lituus lepton was found with the aberrant spelling. Several have since been found.

There will always be skeptics ... St. Thomas was the first. Thank you, HumanaeVitae, for the information on the book. I have not read it but will pick up a copy.

9 posted on 08/03/2002 8:15:05 AM PDT by NYer
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To: HumanaeVitae
Using an electron microscope, they found that they could make out the letters "UCAI" on the coins(called leptons); the letters "UCAI" were part of a roman word that was only inscribed on coins issued by--get this--Pontius Pilate in upper Palestine between 29-31 A.D.

Wow! I've kept up with the Shroud over the years, but this piece of info is news to me... incredible discovery! Thanks for the name of the book "The Ressurection of the Shroud" - I just put it in my Amazon.com shopping basket.

The discovery of the figures in the Guadalupe Virgin's irises is incredible as well. Both the Shroud of Turin and the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe are gifts from God, IMHO.

10 posted on 08/03/2002 8:38:02 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: NYer
Yes I have look at the web site. I have heard much of that before. I beleive that it is not christ image on the shoud. The shoud has never toughed christ. It was found in turkey in an old church as to were it was before that I or nobody else knows.

For one it has the image of christ as the long haired man I believe he might have had a beard as many rabbi's did in thet day. But I believe the Lord had short hair as was the style of the day. back them.
11 posted on 08/03/2002 9:14:45 AM PDT by RMrattlesnake
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To: NYer
Holy Shroud bump
12 posted on 08/03/2002 9:21:10 AM PDT by Dajjal
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To: RMrattlesnake
What did Jesus look like? Amazingly, there is no description of Him in the New Testament or in any contemporary source.  Yet, in hundreds of icons, paintings, mosaics, drawings and coins, there is a common quality that enables us to identify Jesus in works of art. Shroud scholar and historian Ian Wilson theorizes that a common set of facial characteristics became the norm following the discovery of the Edessa Cloth concealed in the city's walls in 544 CE. 

I believe the Lord had short hair as was the style of the day. back them.

Apparent Shroud-inspired images of Christ are noticeable on coins struck in 692 CE during the reign of the Byzantine emperor Justinian II. The distinctive front-facing appearance of Jesus on the Shroud is also found on numerous icons, mosaics and frescos from the sixth century on. The most startling example is the Christ Pantocrator icon at Saint Catherine's Monastery, reliably dated to 550 CE. 

"Using our Polarized Image Overlay Technique, we have examined hundreds of depictions of Jesus in every type of artistic medium from one-fourth-inch-high faces on coins to gigantic mosaics covering the ceilings of great cathedrals from the sixth century on, and we have been able to show that the Mandylion/Shroud face was used as the prototype for almost all of these images."

Mary and Alan Whanger from their book, The Shroud of Turin: An Adventure in Discovery

13 posted on 08/03/2002 10:00:17 AM PDT by NYer
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To: RMrattlesnake
Actually "The Resurrection of the Shroud" goes through the history of the Shroud, when it was known as the Mandylion, and the Image of Odessa. It can be traced right back to the 1st century. The book is a blockbuster--I bought it after I saw the author on EWTN Booknotes with Doug Keck.
14 posted on 08/03/2002 10:41:30 AM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: HumanaeVitae
"Odessa"="Edessa".
15 posted on 08/03/2002 10:42:22 AM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: HumanaeVitae
Antone who need that old cloth to believe don't realy believe anyway.

It is not Jesus

16 posted on 08/03/2002 2:57:58 PM PDT by RMrattlesnake
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To: NYer
Yea I say that on t.v., so really it proves nothing. I know Jesus was real I believe the bible. Not because of some arcaic cloth in the basement of some false doctrine centerized church.

John 4: 48. Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

17 posted on 08/03/2002 3:01:41 PM PDT by RMrattlesnake
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To: HumanaeVitae
Click on this link to read a report on The Shroud. It is, of course, the actual burial garmet of Jesus. The hosting site is nutz, BUT, their study of The Shroud unmasked the fraud that was the "scientific investigation"

http://www.crc-internet.org/
18 posted on 08/03/2002 3:20:28 PM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
Thanks Catholicguy...
19 posted on 08/03/2002 4:22:56 PM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: RnMomof7
Hi! Though you might want to bump the Protestant list. For those who are not familiar with the shroud, the link provides an unbelievable amount of data regarding the man whose image appears thereon. Most remarkable are seeds and pollen found in the fibers, which come ONLY from the Holy Land.
20 posted on 08/03/2002 4:42:53 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Catholicguy; HumanaeVitae
Thank you, Catholicguy for posting that link!

The flagrum, a whip of two or three thongs with small lead pellets attached, was wielded by a torturer who moved round his victim, or by two torturers, one of whom struck from behind. Jesus lost a great deal of Blood, for a reason only mentioned by Saint Luke, "with the unsurpassable precision of a medical doctor", writes Barbet; perhaps because he had questioned Saint John, the beloved disciple who did not fall asleep on the Mount of Olives:

"And being in an agony, He prayed all the more earnestly. And His sweat became as drops of blood trickling down upon the ground." (Lk 22.44)

Fr. Benedict Groeschel appeared on EWTN's program Mother Angelica Live, the other night. He mentioned the shroud, in connection with the crucifixion and burial of Christ. Of course, Fr. Groeschel has a style all his own. Pointing to all the famous artwork we have seen over the years, and the artist's depiction of the crucifixion, he reminded viewers that artists approach their subjects much like a photographer. These are "tableaux". Each person present at the crucifixion has a certain place "in the tableau". In reality, he said, the actual crucifixion of Jesus was something far more barbaric and brutal than any artist would care to render.

He went on to speak about a good friend, a priest, who has a parish in Rhode Island. When his friends parish was condemned by the city council in order to run a highway through that property, this priest set about building a new church. For the "corpus" on the crucifix, he contacted the group that had done the 3D imaging of the Shroud of Turin. He then went on to say that they have now been able to count the number of whiplashes on the man of the shroud - 110! Fr. Groeschel noted, in his inimitable style, that it was miracle enough that this "man of the shroud" was able to walk the Via Dolorosa carrying a crossbar, with his skin tattered into shreds by that number of blows. The normal punishment, according to all public records handed down from that period, would have been 30.

21 posted on 08/03/2002 5:18:20 PM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
If anyone finds another piece of ancient cloth which contains a 3-D topographic map of a human body embedded in a pigment-free negative image, please let me know.

The fire affected the Carbon-14 dating.

22 posted on 08/03/2002 7:26:16 PM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: RMrattlesnake
You're in over your head.
23 posted on 08/03/2002 7:31:18 PM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Aquinasfan
I have my proof of GOD it is the King James bible you can have your old cloth, it will burn in the end it will pass away but the word of God will last for ever. I know more believe the Garbage about the Shourd than I believe in UFO's or that crystals have healing power. I guess you believe in the Lochness monster.
24 posted on 08/03/2002 7:58:32 PM PDT by RMrattlesnake
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To: RMrattlesnake
Why don't you think the Shroud is genuine?
25 posted on 08/03/2002 8:05:53 PM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: Desdemona
I live in the Dayton area. I know personally one of the AF researchers that examined the Shroud in the late 70's. I have yet to meet a Catholic around here that does not believe in the Shroud's authenticity. I admit this is anecdotal but it is pretty overwhelming. Is your info scientific or anecdotal?

Godspeed, The Dilg

26 posted on 08/03/2002 8:18:00 PM PDT by thedilg
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To: Aquinasfan

4 - The area over the anatomical right eye of the Shroud image (a computer enhancement of the Enrie photograph), showing the letters UCAI and the lituus (the arrow points to the upper third of the critical letter C; the letters are about 1.5 mm high).

5 - A Pontius Pilate lepton ("window's mite") owned by Francis Filas, showing the highly specific lituus, or auger, or astrologer's staff design, the frequent clipped edge from one to four o'clock, and, despite erosion, parts of the letters TIOUCAI (again, the arrow points to the letter C).

6 - The overlapped images, showing the almost perfect congruence of the two indicating that this coin was struck from the same die as the coin over the Shroud image's right eye.

27 posted on 08/03/2002 8:19:34 PM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: thedilg
That would be...scientific. Please see above post.
28 posted on 08/03/2002 8:20:58 PM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: RMrattlesnake
I love the majesty of the King James Bible. I believe the bible to be the inerrant word of God. I hope you don't mind if I also believe in the authenticiry of the Shroud. Is it not possible that God is the author of both?

Godspeed, The Dilg
29 posted on 08/03/2002 8:36:05 PM PDT by thedilg
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To: NYer
A man at my parish does presentations on this. He is a chemistry teacher at the community college level and knows a lot about The Shroud of Turin. Unfortunately, the last time he gave a talk, I was unable to attend.
30 posted on 08/03/2002 8:54:56 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: HumanaeVitae
I am interested to see the photographs, but - sorry to be negative - I see very little in the original shroud picture, which has been "computer enhanced" (should that just be "computer magnified?") Is doesn't look like anything to me! I am sure that I could fit it over the map of a glacier, and find points in common.

However, it is interesting to discuss the Shroud. In my opinion, it came from the Middle East, and was probably brought back by the Crusaders. Even if it is not genuine, it is still a venerable and interesting image, fruitful for meditation, and sanctified by the prayers offered by the faithful.
31 posted on 08/03/2002 8:58:11 PM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: NYer
It's an amazing artifact - one that I believe could certainly be the true shroud of Christ. I hope and pray that I should someday be able to see it.
32 posted on 08/03/2002 9:02:31 PM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: NYer
Thank you,NYer for this thread.I just scanned it and the link.And it looks very interesting.Bumping for a later read.
33 posted on 08/03/2002 9:53:41 PM PDT by Lady In Blue
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To: thedilg; NYer
Maybe I should clarify someting - I believe the shroud is authentic.

I always have. Even as a kid. Since then, I've worked with archival artifacts (in a past life) and 2000 year old pieces of cloth just don't look like that. And yes, the fire screwed up the carbon-14 dating. I have no doubt of that.

Too many things point to authenticity, on top of my belief that authentic things generally survive. Supposedly the crown of thorns is in Paris. The French stole it at some point. (Don't let them kid you: they're only athiests because it's fashionable)

And then, I also believe strongly that a higher power watches and intervenes. True story: a sister of a friend lives in San Francisco had two bookcases of breakable figurines. In the earthquake in 1989, the really valuable ones, antique Hummels, were in one bookcase which fell over and every one was destroyed. It wasn't a life. On the other, everything fell off of it except the statue of Mother Duchesne, which didn't move.

A fire that can melt silver is hot enough to get wood and other natural fibers to spontaneously combust. There's no way anyone can convince me the shroud isn't authentic.
34 posted on 08/04/2002 5:51:41 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: NYer
What about the crown of thorns. The shroud has evedence of some sort of thisle but it is the wrong plant to be the crown of thorns.
35 posted on 08/04/2002 6:27:47 AM PDT by RMrattlesnake
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To: HumanaeVitae
The book is a blockbuster

Just ordered it at Amazon.com. Thanks for the recommendation.

36 posted on 08/04/2002 7:10:04 AM PDT by NYer
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To: RMrattlesnake; BlackVeil
What about the crown of thorns

The image is that of a muscular Jewish male, about five feet eleven inches tall, weighing about 170 pounds, about age 35, whose body is in cadaveric spasm (a type of near instantaneous rigor mortis occurring in those severely traumatized), and who has a spear wound through the right chest into the heart with a post mortem flow of blood and serum from the wound. The appearance of the blood clots shows that the body disappeared from within the Shroud without the cloth being unwrapped. The appearance of the blood clots and the body, as well as the images of the flowers, indicates that this event took place between 24 and 36 hours after death.

The image of a crown of thorns is visible on the Shroud, and history records only one use of a crown of thorns. The image records a remarkable event between 24 and 36 hours after death when the body abruptly disappeared, leaving its image in vertically directed electron corona and soft X-ray radiation. To more certainly identify the Man of the Shroud, the title (the sign over the head) and several letters in Greek and Latin of Jesus of Nazareth are faintly visible on the Shroud.

The images of 28 flowers and thorns on the Shroud, twenty of which grow in Jerusalem, and the other eight within 12 miles of Jerusalem. Most do not grow in Europe at all. Pollens of twenty-five of these species had been previously and independently identified by Dr. Max, a noted Swiss criminalist and botanist, from sticky tape slides that he took from the Shroud in 1973 and 1978. Their common blooming time is March and April.

37 posted on 08/04/2002 7:30:52 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
However--it's a little science-intensive in parts...but it's worth the read. ;-}
38 posted on 08/04/2002 9:17:21 AM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: Desdemona
"And then, I also believe strongly that a higher power watches and intervenes"

The book "The Resurrection of the Shroud" runs through the history of the Shroud. It was first known as the Image of Edessa, then the Mandylion, then the "Shroud". Here's an excerpt from the book:

"The rediscovery of the Image of Edess in the sixth century shed valuable light on the cloth's disappearance centuries earlier. According to the "Story of the Image of Edessa", the closth was found in a space above the city's (Edessa's) western gate...when Ma'nu VI (Edessa's ruler) returned to paganism and began persecuting Chrisians...someone hid (the Shroud/Image of Edessa)there for safekeeping since persecution of Christians and destruction of their relics and vestiges were most likely occuring. This choice of a hiding place proved fortuitous, for it not only save the Christian relics from destruction by the pagan ruler, but it also provided a hermeticallly sealed environment for the (Shroud) for the next five centuries...the location turned out to be important for another reason: Edessa suffered severe floods in 201, 303, 413, and 525...fotunately (none of) these floods rose to the level of the western gate, where (the Shroud was hidden)."

39 posted on 08/04/2002 9:30:25 AM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: RMrattlesnake
I guess you believe in the Lochness monster.

I know this is waaay off-topic but I have always thought this was interesting ever since I was told this story.

My wife and I were living in London in early 1998 doing a Christian Counseling course with Youth With A Mission. One of the other people on the course was a shy, affable and very inteligent young woman whom we got to know very well. She came from a fairly well to do family, but she never bragged about it; I think she might have been uncomfortable with how people would relate to her because of her upbringing. Once or twice, however, she did let slip that her family sometimes spent their summers in Scotland, though she offered no more information than that. After three months, we were receiving our assignments for the outreach phase of the school, and my wife and I had felt called to work up in Edinburgh. So, we asked her, since she had spent some time there, about where she spent her summers and what is there to see, if we had a chance to slip away for a weekend.

She told her her family rented out a house in Inverness, near the loch. Well, just as a joke, I asked her if she had ever seen the Loch Ness Monster. She kind of looked down, ackwardly, and replied that yes, indeed she had. She then proceeded to tell us the story (in much more detail than this) that basically her and a few of her brothers were walking along the edge of the loch one evening, as it was getting dark. Ahead, they saw a figure lying across the path. Thinking it might be someone hurt, they quickened their walk towards it. But, as they came closer, they saw that what they thought was a body was actually the neck of a very large creature whose body was still submurged into the loch. They stopped suddenly. The creature then lifted its head, stared at them for a moment, then turned and silently disappeared back into the loch.

She told us that she doesn't like talking about it, espically to Christians, because she is afraid that people would think she was into New Age stuff or even doubt her sanity. But, since seeing it, she starting cautiously tellings others about what she saw, and she told us that there are many others around that loch that told her that they too have seen that creature, some on several occasions.

After knowing her on that school and after, and knowing that she does not have any tendancy towards telling shady stories, let along having a dishonest bone in her body, I can only conclude that she, indeed, saw the Loch Ness Monster.

40 posted on 08/04/2002 9:34:42 AM PDT by ponyespresso
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Comment #41 Removed by Moderator

To: ponyespresso
There are several deep lakes in Europe with legends of dragons or monstrous creatures living in them. And there were such legends back when people knew so little of natural sciences that they simply judged the evidence of their eyes, and gained no kudos from making such claims. So, who knows?
42 posted on 08/04/2002 10:25:47 PM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: HumanaeVitae
UCAI

That is very, very cool. The evidence is overwhelming.

43 posted on 08/05/2002 5:35:12 AM PDT by Aquinasfan
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To: HumanaeVitae; Desdemona; JMJ333; american colleen; Domestic Church
read "The Ressurection of the Shroud"

My copy of the book arrived last week. This has to be the most exhaustive and conclusive research ever done on The Shroud. I am not even half way through Chapter 1. It is difficult to read as each detail delves deep into the harsh and brutally painful reality of the suffering inflicted on The Man of The Shroud. From the wounds on his head (counted and numbered) to the angle and placement of the nails in his hands and feet, forensic experts have learned much about the Roman methods of torture. I can't imagine the horror experienced by his mother and disciples, to witness this amount of suffering.

No expense was spared in the research. To cite just one example:

None of the unique scourge mark features are visible on the Shroud with the naked eye. The indented centers and raised edges are perceptible only when these areas of the body image are photographed and enlarged, then examined under a microscope. Ultraviolet light and fluorescence testing are needed to show the serum-fluorescing borders and to observe that scratches and cuts invisible to the unaided eye accompany the scourge marks. These findings are highly significant because they prove that the Shroud could not have been created by an artist in the Middle Ages. A medieval artist would not have had access to photographic equipment, a microscope, or an ultraviolet light source because none of the tools would be invented for several more centuries. There are more than one hundred scourge marks on the man in the Shroud. The inaccurate representation of just one of them would reveal an unnatural physiological reaction and expose the work as an artistic creation.

They found bruises, cuts, abrasions and dirt around the knees, consistent with someone who had fallen under the weight of a heavy beam. I strongly recommend this book and thank HumanaeVitae for having brought it to my attention.

Do you suppose there is a reason why all of this evidence should be made evident at this moment in time?

44 posted on 08/24/2002 7:34:37 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
Among the facts related in the gospels, which are confirmed by modern science by the shroud are: bruises on the face, caused by the servants of the high priest; the scourging, which was by two men, one taller than the other, and which covered the entire body; the crown of thorns, which was a cap, not a circlet; the lance wound in the heat and the emission of a watery fluid as well as blood; the nail wounds, which were in the wrists, not in the palms so that the thumbs a, and which severed the median nerves, causing the thumbs to be jammed against the palms, so that the they are invisible on the shroud; the carrying of the cross, which rubbed against the shoulders and produced a large abrasion; the falls, attested to by the wounds on the knees and traces of dirt; the crucifixion itself attested by differing patterns of bloodflow caused by the crucified man's raising and lowering of his body in order to breathe. The shroud image also shows that two coins were placed over the eyes, as was customary in Jewish burials. The coins were ones minted by pontius pilate between October 28 AD and October 31 AD. The image also can be reproduced in 3D, and I have never heard of a painting or photograph that can do that.

The shroud even provides indirect confirmation of the resurrection. If the body had decayed in the normal way or even remained in the shroud for more than a few days the shroud would have been discolored and eventually itself decayed. If the body had been stolen or removed, large portions of the shroud would have adhered to the body, as any cloth would adhere to open wounds destroying the image.

Scientist try and discredit the shroud by using Carbon-14 tests, but those are often unreliable. They say it proves the shroud is from the 14th century, and say it proves conclusively that the shroud is a fake. They don't take into account that the shroud had been touched by many people and articles over the centuries...or that there was a fire in the Chambrey house in 1534 where the shroud was being kept. The heat was intense enough to melt the silver tub holding the shroud, yet the shroud didn't catch fire. Therefore, the tube must have been airtight. Both of the previous could have altered the test results.

All in All, I believe it is throughly authentic. =)

45 posted on 08/24/2002 7:48:10 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: NYer
I just put it in my Amazon.com basket, thanks for the heads up.
46 posted on 08/24/2002 7:51:59 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: JMJ333; american colleen
All in All, I believe it is throughly authentic. =)

I see you already have a copy; Colleen is ordering it from amazon.com.

Short of the Holy Grail, this has to be the most blessed relic. Since the Holy Grail has never been found (there are stories about a cup somewhere in Scotland), that would mean the Shroud IS truly the most blessed relic today.

Colleen, you will not be disappointed.

What is our suffering compared to His?

47 posted on 08/24/2002 9:47:46 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
Yeah, it is quite a detailed book. The technical chapters are a little rough...but this is without a doubt the final word on where current Shroud research is at.

I'm surprised more Catholics haven't heard of this book. I went out and got it after seeing the author, Mark Antonacci, on EWTN Book Notes. The book itself came out in 2000.

As far as why this information is coming to light, I think number one is that we now have the technology to do it; and number two a new century is arriving. I think the 21st Century will be the oppoisite of the 20th; hopeful and faithful without the massive wars, etc.

Anyway, I was also intrigued by Antonacci because he is a former atheist, like myself.

48 posted on 08/24/2002 10:35:51 AM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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To: HumanaeVitae
I was also intrigued by Antonacci because he is a former atheist, like myself

The introduction to the book was quite a story!! Yes, this would explain the level of scrutiny and indepth analaysis he applies to his investigation. Does he say that as a result of his research, he did find God?

This should be on the top 10 reading list for all catholics and christians. Thank you, again.

49 posted on 08/24/2002 11:41:19 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer
"Does he say that as a result of his research, he did find God?"

I remember in his EWTN interview he states that he first got involved with the Shroud after the STURP project in 1978. After a thourough investigaton of their conclusions he himself concluded that the Shroud was real and converted.

And hey, you're welcome...great book. The history of the Shroud and it's continued miraculous "survivals" of fires, floods, wars etc. is worth the price of the book alone.

50 posted on 08/24/2002 12:19:08 PM PDT by HumanaeVitae
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