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No Physical Heaven/Hell ... says the Pope?
Toledo Blade ^ | Saturday, August 14, 1999 | JUDY TARJANYI

Posted on 09/23/2002 12:04:16 PM PDT by Quester

Saturday, August 14, 1999

New ideas about heaven and hell are being suggested

By JUDY TARJANYI

Toledo Blade

A multitude of words about heaven and hell lies within the pages of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the writings of Christianity's church fathers. But when Pope John Paul II chose a few to elaborate on in two recent addresses, he made headlines, even though he was merely drawing on current church teaching in his descriptions of the afterlife.

"The Pope drastically lowered the temperature of hell," crowed a report from the British newspaper, The Guardian. An July 29 article from Reuters News Service said: "Forget the flames and the devils with pitchforks. A week after telling the Roman Catholic faithful that heaven was not up in the clouds, Pope John Paul II said yesterday that hell was not a physical place either."

Even in Italy, home of the Catholic Church's Vatican, the Pope's thoughts on eternity unleashed a discussion in the Italian press in which Catholic theologians weighed in on the subject, according to the National Catholic Register.

In this premillennial time, when mediums who claim to have received reports of the hereafter are frequent guests on TV talk shows and their books are big sellers, no one should be surprised that talk of the afterlife from one of the world's best-known religious leaders would spark the kind of interest it did. The popularity of books by and about such mediums as George Anderson, James Van Praagh, and John Edward in which they share messages from the "other side" that describe what it's like over there indicates people want their curiosity about what comes after death satisfied by more than blind faith.

Such curiosity often stems from the desire to know the state of loved ones who have died. Indeed, much of Anderson's work has been in giving readings, or as he calls them, discernments, to bereaved survivors about their deceased family members. What they have to say is far more detailed than anything the Pope has said in describing heaven and hell, but in some ways it is similar to his characterizations of heaven and hell as closer to a state of being than a place.

The Pope's comments stand in sharp contrast to popular images of heaven as a mass of fluffy clouds and hell as a pit of fire. Heaven, the Pope said, is neither abstraction nor a physical place, but a "living and personal relationship with the Holy Trinity," the Christian understanding of God as one being in three persons of Father,Son, and Holy Spirit. Hell, he said, is "the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy."

However, none of this is new as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, said the Rev. Brian Daley, a Jesuit and professor of theology at the University of Notre Dame in South Bend, Ind., who said he found reports of the Pope's talks "completely unremarkable."

"It was kind of a standard Catholic presentation of heaven and hell." The church's view, he said, is based on the Christian hope that the relationship with God begun in this life continues in the next and that humans have the freedom to turn away from that relationship if they choose, knowing that it will lead to destruction. "The rest is imagery about what we can't describe."

Much as the Pope did, the Catholic Catechism describes heaven as a communion of life and love with the Trinity, with Mary the mother of Christ, the angels and "all the blessed." Hell is defined in the text as a state in which the chief punishment is "eternal separation from God."

Father Daley, whose background is in patristics, or the writings of the church fathers, said that the authors of the early church do some of their own imagining about the hereafter. St. Gregory of Nyssa , an early church father, for example, spoke of a spiritual fire, the anguish of knowing one is separated from God and consumed with longing, sadness, and frustration, Father Daley said.

Although St. Gregory offered a spiritual notion of what heaven and hell might be like, he said that humans can only form metaphors or images of it for themselves. "He imagines heaven as a kind of perpetual growth, becoming more and more united with God, more and more satisfied in a sense."

St. Thomas Aquinas, who was called the "Great Synthesizer" because of his ability to relate faith to reason and theology to philosophy, has a lot to say about what heaven and hell might be like, Father Daley said. "He emphasizes that the center of happiness and fulfillment for a person will be the beatific vision, a sort of direct understanding of God which makes us fully happy. He kind of put it in terms of a vision, not just with physical eyes, but with our minds."

Much imagery about the afterlife, however, comes straight from the Bible. In the Christian gospels, Jesus Christ speaks about hell as a fiery place where unrepentant sinners will be cast. Hell as a place of eternal fire where sinners will be thrown forever also is found in some late Jewish writings that would have been written about the time of the Christian scriptures or later, Father Daley said.

The hell of eternal damnation sometimes is confused with the hell to which Jesus is said to have descended after His resurrection from the dead. That hell, however, is seen as a subterranean place, like the Jewish idea of Hades or Sheol, where those who had died were in a kind of waiting room until Christ's resurrection from the dead, when Christians believe He went there to proclaim their redemption.

Images of hell as a fiery place, Father Daley said, are not generally interpreted literally by theologians. "More and more the church has taken these things as being metaphors, a way of imagining what we can know from our present faith: which is to choose not to accept God's love is to choose a situation and image of ourselves that is self-destructive."

Father Daley said one of his favorite presentations on heaven and hell was given as a sermon by John Henry Newman before he converted from Anglicanism to Catholicism in 1845. "He has this idea, which is very fascinating, that heaven and hell are in the same place, that we all come to be in the presence of God, but for the person who has lived in faith, coming into the presence of God is tremendously fulfilling and happy. And for the one who lived for self, power, and material things, it's hell."

People are likely interested in the hereafter, Father Daley said, because of their inherent awareness of the fragility of life. "There is something in us instinctively that doesn't want to see death simply as annihilation of any of us, because our experiences seem to be more long-lasting and valuable than that. We want to believe and have some sort of intuition that there is something permanent in the human person."

Most religious faiths, he said, claim there is some lasting value and existence to individual people, even if they speak of it in poetic ways. When people think about the hereafter, Father Daley said, they draw on their present experience of faith and sense of God and the invisible realm and then imagine what it would be like to share in that in some lasting way.

In art, more of those imaginings seem to deal with hell than with heaven. Hell in art often is depicted with monster images, said Iva Lisikewycz, associate curator of European paintings at the Detroit Institute of Arts. The first devils in art were merely dark figures, meaning that they didn't possess the light, she said. "Early images of devils were fallen angels, and that then was united with the idea of the grotesque, so that devils look like monsters with big teeth, pointy ears, and bat's wings --because they were night creatures."

In one painting of Christ pulling Adam and Eve from hell, hell is seen as a great mouth with flames and tormented creatures within, Lisikewycz said. Heaven is more difficult to depict, she went on. "Very often, it's related to gardens, paradise, the enclosed garden, the idea of water and plant life. "Heaven is where God is and hell is where God isn't. I think that's what his holiness the Pope is talking about now. Just the fact that you should be unhappy you're not there, because those who are are happy."

Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: heaven; hell; pope
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Comments?
1 posted on 09/23/2002 12:04:17 PM PDT by Quester
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To: Quester
"The Pope drastically lowered the temperature of hell,"

But, the queston remains:
Did it freeze over?
2 posted on 09/23/2002 12:15:50 PM PDT by APBaer
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To: Quester
Mega Knee Jerk Papal Loyalist dittoes for the Pope
3 posted on 09/23/2002 12:23:16 PM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Quester
comment later
4 posted on 09/23/2002 12:39:28 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Catholicguy; Quester
"Heaven, the Pope said, is neither abstraction nor a physical place"

CG do you think the Pope really denied a spatial component to heaven and hell, or has he just been misquoted?

Bearing in mind that the resurrection of the body is an article of faith, and that bodies need space or "a place" in which to exist, then I cannot believe that JPII really said this.
5 posted on 09/23/2002 2:01:07 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Quester
The pope is just a man, thus, makes mistakes, like all of us do.
6 posted on 09/23/2002 3:12:38 PM PDT by exnavy
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To: Catholicguy
So I am to understand that the position of the Catholic church is there is no physical Heaven or Hell.

What is the R.C. position on the physical resurection of mankind?

7 posted on 09/23/2002 4:22:26 PM PDT by rising tide
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To: Tantumergo
"Bearing in mind that the resurrection of the body is an article of faith, and that bodies need space or "a place" in which to exist, then I cannot believe that JPII really said this."

We won't get our glorified bodies until the general judgement. It think the pope is talking about where we go after the individual judgement.

8 posted on 09/23/2002 5:34:36 PM PDT by Theresa
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To: Quester
It took you three years to post this story?
9 posted on 09/23/2002 5:40:15 PM PDT by St.Chuck
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To: Catholicguy; rising tide
CG: Here's the LDS flow chart...


10 posted on 09/23/2002 5:45:02 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: St.Chuck
It took you three years to post this story?
Just ran across it in my searchings for theories on the Heaven/Hell question.
11 posted on 09/23/2002 6:28:54 PM PDT by Quester
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To: Tantumergo
CG do you think the Pope really denied a spatial component to heaven and hell, or has he just been misquoted?

Do glorified bodies need physical space, or do they exist metaphysically?

God is pure love, and it takes a lifelong series of conscious decisions against God to consign one to an eternity without Him.

More men will spend intensive periods in purgatory than will go to hell.

If there are people in hell, they will have made a firm decision to go there.

12 posted on 09/23/2002 7:05:10 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Quester
Matthew 25:41
Matthew 25:46
Revelation 20:15
This is what the Bible, the final word in all matters of faith and practice says about Hell.
I will take the word of God over the word of a mortal any day.
13 posted on 09/23/2002 7:06:58 PM PDT by Commander8
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To: Quester; JHavard; Havoc; OLD REGGIE; Iowegian; glory; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; ...
Bump
14 posted on 09/23/2002 7:17:52 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
I have seen this quoted many times: "Just because someone says there is no hell doesn't make it one degree cooler."
15 posted on 09/23/2002 7:40:20 PM PDT by computerjunkie
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To: computerjunkie
:>)..
16 posted on 09/23/2002 7:43:00 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Thanks for the ping - I don't come here often anymore.

I suspect that the pope is in for a surprise.

But then, as a song by a local L.A. group called Snooky Tate said, lo, these many years ago...

"He the groove

He the man

He the Pope in the Vatican

He the groove

He the man

He the Pope in the Vatican

He ain't no dope

'Cause he the Pope

He the groove

He the man

He the Pope in the Vatican..."

17 posted on 09/23/2002 7:43:22 PM PDT by Jefferson Adams
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To: Jefferson Adams
Hope all is well JA...you da man:>)
18 posted on 09/23/2002 7:46:15 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Quester
If there is no heaven or hell, then of what use is the Catholic Church as it stands today?

Sorry folks, all those hundreds of years we've been telling you that you need to remain afraid of eternal damnation; that was all a joke. And all that effort you put into the Church to go to Heaven; that was in vain.

Could we be any denser?

19 posted on 09/23/2002 8:30:37 PM PDT by God is good
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To: exnavy; RnMomof7
The pope is just a man, thus, makes mistakes, like all of us do.

Yeah.
But he is also venerated as the "Vicar of Christ", something no ordinary man can claim with authority on this earth.


20 posted on 09/23/2002 8:36:27 PM PDT by ppaul
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To: drstevej
Did you get the flowchart from Jack?
21 posted on 09/23/2002 8:38:54 PM PDT by ppaul
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To: ppaul
Nope, got it from Google.
22 posted on 09/23/2002 8:39:58 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: Quester
hell is the absence of God... just not a nice place to be no matter how a body tries to explain it away
23 posted on 09/23/2002 8:49:44 PM PDT by InvisibleChurch
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To: RnMomof7
I've been married twice, so I qualify as a tour guide from Hell. Yes, there is a physical place, it has a Lake of Fire, and the entrance is prefaced by, "Trust me, You're really going to have fun!"
24 posted on 09/23/2002 8:55:48 PM PDT by Cvengr
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To: RnMomof7
Bump

Don't tell me. Let me guess. You suspect there may be a literal flaming hell of eternal torment?
25 posted on 09/23/2002 9:29:25 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: Cvengr
The official Hot Sauce of the Lake of Fire
26 posted on 09/23/2002 9:38:02 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: Quester
I can't access your link to your story posted..it says outside link..the Pope was in Guatemala City for a cannonization of Pedro de San Jose Betancur at the time your story states the Pope made his remarks...search his addresses and can't find the comments you posted...still searching..
27 posted on 09/23/2002 9:43:03 PM PDT by Irisshlass
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To: Quester; fortheDeclaration; xzins
No Physical Heaven/Hell ... says the Pope?

Ahhhhh,.....this then "means"........no physical Islamic Purgatory either?

/sarcasm

28 posted on 09/23/2002 9:48:12 PM PDT by maestro
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To: drstevej
masthead
ASU Sparky Logo
ASU Sparky Logo
ASU Sparky Logo

29 posted on 09/23/2002 10:06:27 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: Jeff Chandler
The official mascot.
30 posted on 09/23/2002 10:06:59 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler
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To: APBaer
The Cubs haven't one yet, so no.
31 posted on 09/24/2002 2:59:03 AM PDT by Wrigley
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To: Commander8
Amen.
32 posted on 09/24/2002 4:16:42 AM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: RnMomof7
I seem to remember someone questioing: "Hast God said?" The "apple" doesn't fall far from the tree, eh?
33 posted on 09/24/2002 4:18:43 AM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: RnMomof7
Gee, that is funny...Christ said there was a hell...the Pope must know more than Christ.
34 posted on 09/24/2002 4:24:37 AM PDT by Moby Grape
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To: Tantumergo
<>I have no idea of what he actually said. I place the same amount of trust in the press as I placed in Clinton under oath.

Are you suggesting the Pope is heretical?<>

35 posted on 09/24/2002 5:06:00 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: drstevej
<>LOL 'ta heck is that? <>
36 posted on 09/24/2002 5:07:31 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy; restornu
LDS theology in a single chart.

You & I, as non-Mormons, got no shot higher than the Terrestial Kingdom. Although some of the LDS Freepers think Terrestrial Kingdom, in my case, is ambitious! Right, restornu?
37 posted on 09/24/2002 5:35:41 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
<> Well, isn't it true that if I convert and become a Mormon Saint then I get to have my own Planet with my own Barberella with which I can populate my own Planet?(he asked considering converting)<>
38 posted on 09/24/2002 6:06:36 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
BarberellaS!!! (plural)

But not so fast...
You need a Temple Marriage
Keep all the rules including 10% to the LDS church, wearing your Temple undergarments, etc.
And then get the nod from Joseph Smith who has the keys of the Celestial Kingdom.

BTW, LDS communion uses bread and water as the elements, can water be transsubstantiated?
39 posted on 09/24/2002 6:17:32 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: George W. Bush
Yep.
40 posted on 09/24/2002 7:42:49 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: anniegetyourgun
LOL..i do get it
41 posted on 09/24/2002 7:45:07 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: drstevej; Catholicguy
BTW, LDS communion uses bread and water as the elements, can water be transsubstantiated

yea Steve into ice and steam:>)

it is interesting because the LDS believe our resurrected bodies are made of flesh and bone ,no blood because blood is impure ..

42 posted on 09/24/2002 7:48:14 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: drstevej; Catholicguy; rising tide; Grig; Utah Girl
This chart on post #10 is an Anti-Mormon version and is not correct, but what does that matter to Steve he has no credibility to up hold, "THE ENDS JUSTFY THE MEANS" ~ Any lie for Jesus will do.
43 posted on 09/24/2002 7:51:11 AM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu; Catholicguy
Why not explain just where it is wrong? List five things if you think the list is too long....
44 posted on 09/24/2002 7:52:37 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: RnMomof7; CubicleGuy; Grig; Utah Girl; rising tide
LETS CLEAR UP SOME MISCONCEPTIOND RnMomof7!

1- BTW, LDS communion uses bread and water as the elements, can water be transsubstantiated yea Steve into ice and steam:>)

***

THE DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS SECTION 27
Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, August 1830. HC 1: 106—108. In preparation for a religious service at which the sacrament of bread and wine was to be administered, Joseph set out to procure wine for the occasion. He was met by a heavenly messenger and received this revelation, a portion of which was written at the time, and the remainder in the September following. Water is now used instead of wine in the sacramental services of the Church.

1—4, The emblems to be used in partaking of the sacrament are set forth; 5—14, Christ and his servants from all dispensations are to partake of the sacrament; 15—18, Put on the whole armor of God.

1 LISTEN to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your Redeemer, whose word is quick and powerful.

2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.

3 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;

4 Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth.

5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;

6 And also with Elias, to whom I have committed the keys of bringing to pass the restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began, concerning the last days;

7 And also John the son of Zacharias, which Zacharias he (Elias) visited and gave promise that he should have a son, and his name should be John, and he should be filled with the spirit of Elias;

8 Which John I have sent unto you, my servants, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Oliver Cowdery, to ordain you unto the first priesthood which you have received, that you might be called and ordained even as Aaron;

9 And also Elijah, unto whom I have committed the keys of the power of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, that the whole earth may not be smitten with a curse;

10 And also with Joseph and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, your fathers, by whom the promises remain;

11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;

12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;

13 Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather together in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;

14 And also with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.

15 Wherefore, lift up your hearts and rejoice, and gird up your loins, and take upon you my whole armor, that ye may be able to withstand the evil day, having done all, that ye may be able to stand.

16 Stand, therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, having on the breastplate of righteousness, and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, which I have sent mine angels to commit unto you;

17 Taking the shield of faith wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked;

18 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of my Spirit, which I will pour out upon you, and my word which I reveal unto you, and be agreed as touching all things whatsoever ye ask of me, and be faithful until I come, and ye shall be caught up, that where I am ye shall be also. Amen.

************************************************************

2- it is interesting because the LDS believe our resurrected bodies are made of flesh and bone ,no blood because blood is impure ..

***

The resurrection consists in the uniting of a spirit body with a body of flesh and bones, never again to be divided. The resurrection shall come to all, because of Christ’s victory over death. Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected on this earth (Acts 26: 23; 1 Cor. 15: 23; Col. 1: 18; Rev. 1: 5; cf. Matt. 27: 52-54). Others had been brought back from death, but were restored to mortality (Mark 5: 22-43; Luke 7: 11-17; John 11: 1-45), whereas a resurrection means to become immortal, without blood, yet with a body of flesh and bone.

All will not be raised to the same glory in the resurrection (1 Cor. 15: 39-42; D&C 76), nor will all come forth at the same time (see 1 Cor. 15: 23; Alma 40: 8). Christ was first; the righteous have precedence over the wicked, and come forth in the first resurrection, whereas the unrepentant sinners come forth in the last resurrection (cf. Rev. 20: 5-13).

45 posted on 09/24/2002 8:30:49 AM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu
Grape juice is not 'strong drink" it is used by most non RC Churches..
46 posted on 09/24/2002 8:35:49 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: drstevej; Catholicguy; CubicleGuy; Grig; Utah Girl; rising tide
You correct your own mess I keep telling you go to the source, not to someone poison well, who has an ax's to grind! But then you would have to deal with the LDS more even handed.
47 posted on 09/24/2002 8:37:05 AM PDT by restornu
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To: RnMomof7; CubicleGuy; Grig; Utah Girl; rising tide
Grape juice is not 'strong drink" it is used by most non RC Churches..

True, but water works, and the Holy Spitit is with us.

48 posted on 09/24/2002 8:43:32 AM PDT by restornu
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To: Catholicguy; restornu
***You correct your own mess ***

This means the chart is likely right on the money.
49 posted on 09/24/2002 8:50:24 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
BTW, LDS communion uses bread and water as the elements, can water be transsubstantiated?

<> No WINE? What do they think Jesus did at the Wedding Feast at Cana? Change water into , um, water? What do they think Jesus was drinking at the Last Supper, water?<>

50 posted on 09/24/2002 8:53:06 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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