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Hellfire And Brimstone Preaching
http://www.christianinformer.org/2k01hell.htm ^ | 10/5/02 | Richard Nichols

Posted on 10/04/2002 11:30:35 PM PDT by RnMomof7

Hellfire And Brimstone Preaching

Years ago, after a service, people would get up off the benches, and come out the old meeting house doors, telling to each other who they enjoyed that "hellfire and brimstone sermon." Now days the people politely arise from their padded pews, step lightly over the carpet, exchange some pleasantries with their friends, and as they pass out the doors of their lovely place of worship, they compliment their preacher for the beautiful uplifting lesson that he has so eloquently delivered. (And the man knows he'd better continue to give those "uplifting" chapel talks if he wants to stay long there). Back a few years ago when Christians "knew their Bible" and the preachers preached hard against sin, there were a few who didn't like it, but the majority of truly converted children of God appreciated it. Where is the hard preaching!?!

One time Jesus said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." We are then told that, "Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?" (John 6:53,60,61). Jesus knew that His preaching offended some, but he didn't change His preaching. When John the Baptist "saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance" (Matthew 3:7,8). When John saw Herod married to his own brother's wife, he said to Herod, "It is not lawful for thee to have her" (Matthew 14:4). Peter told the Jews on Pentecost day (Acts 2:23), "Him... ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Today Some Complain

There are people in the church who whine and grumble about how hard some gospel preachers preach. Some "Christians" even move from one congregation to another in order to escape hearing hard preaching. These same people seem to sit around criticizing the "hard preachers." From this attitude, which causes problems among God's people, there raise several questions: First, what is hard preaching? Second, is hard preaching wrong? Third, why would a Christian be opposed to hard preaching? Fourth, why would a preacher preach hard?

What Is Hard Preaching?

Everyone has an answer for this question. The answers will vary and will be influenced by the sermon content, as well as the hearer's attitude toward the preacher. But Webster defines hard as "Opposed to soft; carried on energetically or persistently; earnest; displaying severity." Preaching is commonly defined as, "A sermon; the delivery in public of a public message." Therefore, hard preaching is basically a message from the Bible that is presented energetically, persistently in words that some may think are harsh or severe.

Is Hard Preaching Wrong?

Is it wrong to preach the word energetically and persistently? NO! The area of disagreement seems to center around the words used by the preacher in his preaching. Is there a place for severe words in preaching? Jesus thought there was; He said, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33). Read Matthew 23 and see how many times Jesus called His hearers "hypocrites". He never held back to spare the feelings of his listeners. On another occasion, Christ said, "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition," and then tells them that their worship is rendered in vain (Mark 7:9). The Master very strict when He said, "...no one cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 6:60,61)! Others were offended at His preaching. The Bible says, "Then came the disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, when they heard this saying" (Matthew 15:12). Jesus knew the effect of His severe words, but He continued to employ them.

Stephen's Hard Preaching

Stephen evidently believed in severe words, too. He said, "Ye stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do you" (Acts 7:51). This hard sermon cost Stephen his life!

What About The Loving John?

John, the apostle of love, used severe words when he said, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:4). Language could not be clearer. From the example of Jesus, Stephen, John and many others, hard preaching is not wrong. The key to hard preaching is speaking the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15).

Why Oppose Hard Preaching?

There may be several reasons, but here we notice a few: First, a Christian may not understand that hard preaching must be done. Second, he may be personally soft and passive in every area of his life. It may be that he will not take a stand on anything, or tell anybody that they are wrong, because he doesn't want to offend anyone. Third, he may be living in sin himself and doesn't want those sins brought to his attention. Someone said, "Our attitudes will determine our destiny." Fourth, he may be looking for an excuse to leave the church, or possibly cause trouble among God's people. Fifth, he may be trying to get rid of the preacher or at least shut him up. There may be other reasons why a Christian may be opposed to hard preaching, but they are all wrong.

Why Preach Hard?

Unless a preacher demonstrates otherwise, we believe that gospel preachers preach hard because it is the will of God for them to do so. The faithful gospel preacher's commission is, "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all long suffering and doctrine." And Paul warns, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:2-4). Therefore, in order to be pleasing unto God and save his own soul, the preacher must preach hard (1 Timothy 4:16). A reading of the New Testament letters to Christians, will reveal many hard things that the preacher must use in his preaching. In so doing, he will preach the "whole counsel of God" (Acts 20:27).

Off-Limits Subjects

There are certain subjects that some preachers won't preach on. Other preachers, succumb to direct pressure in a congregation, and others attempting to pacify infantile members refuse to deliver a much needed lesson. God's prophet was pressured in 1 Kings 22:13, "And the messenger that was gone to call Micaiah spake unto him, saying, Behold now, the words of the prophets declare good unto the king with one mouth: let thy word, I pray thee, be like the word of one of them, and speak that which is good." But his reply was, "As the LORD liveth, what the LORD saith unto me, that will I speak" (v. 14).

Some demanded of Isaiah, "Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits" (30:10). Did you hear it? In other words, "We aren't interested in the truth, we just want to feel good, even if you have to tell us lies. Brother, let's beware of a constant diet of "smooth things". No doubt the psalmist had reference to literal honey when he said, "Hast thou found honey? Eat so much as is sufficient for thee, lest thou be filled therewith, and vomit it" (Proverbs 25:16). Too much "sweet talk" is also nauseating to those who realize we must all appear before Christ's judgement seat.

How About You?

Preacher, can you say with Paul, "I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have showed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house" (Acts 20:20)? And with Paul can you say that you are "...pure from the blood of all men. For [you] have not shunned to declare.... all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:26,27)?

Today, perhaps as never before, there is great need for hard preaching, and the support by God's people of that kind preaching. God's record shows that it will strengthen the saint and save the sinner.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
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There has been alot of discussion on being to harsh.

Now it seems to me the early church said what need to be said without concern for peoples feelings.That led to a great revile.Has God changed? Has the gospel changed? Was Jesus a hell and Brim stone preacher?

1 posted on 10/04/2002 11:30:35 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: JMJ333; american colleen; Claud; dadwags; SoothingDave; al_c; Notwithstanding; JHavard; Havoc; ...
I think we live in a PC world in a PC time and the defense of the faith is a lost art...this is a BUMP
2 posted on 10/04/2002 11:33:15 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
bump for thot and comment tomorrow
3 posted on 10/04/2002 11:42:17 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: All
revival  ..boy its late
4 posted on 10/04/2002 11:42:38 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Armaggedon bump
5 posted on 10/04/2002 11:43:57 PM PDT by JesseShurun
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To: RnMomof7
There are certain subjects that some preachers won't preach on.

I believe this is all too common these days. When I hear or see a commercial or sign for a church and the prevailing messege is something along the lines 'a personal relationship' it strikes me as one of those feel good places.

Never a sermon on sin just have a relationship and feel good. Plus, look at all this cool recreational stuff we got. This nice new gym and this wonderful fellowship center with a kitchen and games.

Too often churches just focus on numbers. I got 2000 in my congregation therefore we must be doing things right.

6 posted on 10/05/2002 1:28:55 AM PDT by PFKEY
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To: RnMomof7
Was Jesus a hell and Brim stone preacher?

Not to be picky but I come from the South. That should be "hell fire and brim stone preacher." Thanks.

7 posted on 10/05/2002 4:16:30 AM PDT by sola gracia
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: RnMomof7
"This is a hard saying, who can listen to it?" —the crowd, John 6:61.

This is indeed an IMMENSE problem today. My fiancee is substitute teaching at a Catholic high school...the kids told her: "Religion class is so boring! They say the same thing over and over again!"

She agreed with them, and told them the only thing they teach nowadays is to be good and "Jesus loves you no matter what."

To which they responded "Yeah! That's EXACTLY what they say!"

It breaks my heart for these poor kids. Instead of being raised to be good Christians, they are all apostates in training.

9 posted on 10/05/2002 5:33:59 AM PDT by Claud
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To: RnMomof7; fortheDeclaration; winstonchurchill; ShadowAce; P-Marlowe; Revelation 911; ...
This is a self-justification piece for the abusive.

Is there a difference between abuse and "speaking hard truth." You bet there is!

1. Knowing the heart. The preacher is NOT the Lord Jesus. He does not know the heart as Jesus did. Preachers/Pastors are human, they can be wrong about their impressions, and the honorable ones admit that.

2. The definition of Abuse.

....a. Webster definition: language that condemns or vilifies unjustly, intemperately, and angrily ; physical maltreatment

....b. Definition in Christian Counseling: victimization and/or manipulation of others through verbal, emotional, sexual, or physical attacks on the person or the person's essential identity.

....c. Medical Definition: 1. Improper treatment or use; 2. Physical ill treatment; injury. 3. Vituperative words; coarse, insulting speech; abusive language; virulent condemnation; reviling. 4. Violation; rape; as, abuse of a female child. 5. Abuse, Invective. Abuse is generally prompted by anger, and vented in harsh and unseemly words. It is more personal and coarse than invective. Abuse generally takes place in private quarrels; invective in writing or public discussions.

The relevant questions:

1. Was it possible for Jesus to abuse?
2. Is it possible for human pastors/preachers/priests and other religious persons to abuse?
3. If possible for religious humans, how is it (a) recognized, (b) opposed, (c) treated?
4. How does one heal the victims of religious physical, sexual, emotional, and verbal abuse?

10 posted on 10/05/2002 7:25:38 AM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7
Re: "Hellfire and Brimstone" preaching.When feeling the need for some of that---I ponder fourth century St.Ephrem(Ephraim)--his Spiritual Psalter of (several hundred) prayers written somewhat before the NT canon was put together.

I will not cease to praise Thee,O our Lord.Ceaselessly will I sing of Thy glory,that Thy truth may not condemn me. I know the extent of my guilt,that if Thou dost punish me according to my sins my inheritance will be gehenna.Then all hope will be lost.Then my prayer will be silenced.Have mercy on me therefore, and forgive me my debts.

I slipped and fell into sin.Extend to me Thy right hand and I will arise,like the harlot in Simon's house,like the thief on the cross.Have mercy on me,Thou who art kindhearted to sinners.

11 posted on 10/05/2002 7:43:43 AM PDT by IGNATIUS
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To: RnMomof7
Interesting article. Above all, preaching must be truthful and Biblical. One does not distort the message of God to make it less offensive. Paul wrote:
but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [1 Cor 1:23-24, NAS95]

That said, Paul also wrote:

The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.[ 2: Ti 2:24-26, NAS95]

So I conclude that we need to be careful to distinguish between an inherently offensive message and an arrogant messenger...

12 posted on 10/05/2002 8:02:54 AM PDT by RochesterFan
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To: RnMomof7
Is there a place for severe words in preaching? Jesus thought there was; He said, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33). Read Matthew 23 and see how many times Jesus called His hearers "hypocrites". He never held back to spare the feelings of his listeners. On another occasion, Christ said, "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition," and then tells them that their worship is rendered in vain (Mark 7:9).

Stephen evidently believed in severe words, too. He said, "Ye stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do you" (Acts 7:51).

I think it is hugely important to look not only at the words that Jesus and the others were speaking, but to whom they were speaking them to. On the occasions you describe Jesus was talking specifically about the Scribes and Pharisees, not all of the crowds that had gathered around Him. Stephen was speaking before the Council of the Sanhedrin, again not before the general masses. Except for the awkward exchange that Jesus has with the Syrophoenician woman in Mark 7:24-30, Jesus saved His harsh words for those in power, not usually for the guy in the street, and certainly not for those who came to Him for healing or deliverance. Even the words “Sell everything you have and give it to the poor” (try preaching on THAT verse) that Jesus said to the rich, young ruler, Mark writes that Jesus said that after looking at him and feeling a love for him (Mark 10:20) so we know that Jesus did not speak these words out of disdain or frustration, but from love.

There has been alot of discussion on being to harsh.

When you talk about people being “harsh” here on FR, aren’t you really talking about people being rude, dismissive and condescending?

There is one manner of being "harsh", which means speaking truth and holyness against the tide of our current culture immersed in lies and evil. This is the harshness of Scripture. It is quite another to manner of being "harsh" as merely being caustic, nasty and dishonorable. This, usually, is the harshness of FR.

13 posted on 10/05/2002 8:28:46 AM PDT by ponyespresso
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To: RnMomof7
There is a big difference between hard preaching, which I am all for, and hatefulness, insults, disrespect, and cruelty, which is what is mostly going on now a days in this forum!

Becky

14 posted on 10/05/2002 9:06:34 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: ponyespresso
I'm tossing this out unchecked but I believe that Jesus' and any of the accounts of others in the NT using harsh words were always directed at those who were contemplating murder, planning murder, or engaged in theft.

They weren't directed at those with whom doctrinal disagreements was the only issue.
15 posted on 10/05/2002 9:23:08 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
Jesus rebuked his disciples (other than Judas) often. They weren't planning murder or theft.

Telling Peter "Get behind me, Satan" comes to mind!
16 posted on 10/05/2002 9:32:15 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Yep. What's the reason? Peter was telling Jesus he didn't need to go to the cross.

He was allowing himself to be used by Satan or was speaking the words of Satan by opposing Christ's mission.

Expand the principle now: murder, theft, demonic opposition to Christ's mission. (Is that fair summary? Help me with the wording.)

17 posted on 10/05/2002 9:41:06 AM PDT by xzins
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Reading down through these post, it is obvious that 1 major point is being made by most of the people responding. It is also obvious that from other posts the point is not going to be picked up on by those who need it most. Why is that? IMO, it is because they are lost and have not the love of God in their hearts.

1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

How's that for hard preaching:)

Becky

18 posted on 10/05/2002 9:46:00 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: xzins
He rebukes Peter in John 21:22 for curiosity about the future of the beloved disciple rather than following Him and His calling in Peter's life.

The greek has the force of "What's is to you! You follow me!"

The problemn with your thesis is that there are varying degrees of rebuke and I question whether there is a hard and fast principle. Might be better to state the things that most frequently drew His criticism.
19 posted on 10/05/2002 9:46:58 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
If we have a difference with another's belief, I believe the proper way to approach them is with Scripture ONLY. Let God do the rebuking. Isn't that what Jesus did? He would tell someone they were wrong and why using scripture. If they accept fine, if they don't fine, we have done our part. If God's word does not change a person our words won't. Calling names, using sarcasm, etc. will not do it.

Becky

20 posted on 10/05/2002 9:58:54 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: drstevej
I"m speaking ONLY about rebukes with harsh WORDS....hypocrite, murderer, thieves, Satan, etc.

The passage in John 21 doesn't qualify.

Pastors who use abusive language from the pulpit can speak about: those outside their congregation who are not Christian, those outside who are Christian, those inside who are not, those inside who are.

It seems that Jesus would call murderers murderers, thieves thieves, adulterers adulterers. He knew the FACT of their violation.

I don't recall him calling anyone "stupid, imbecile, retarded, @ssh_le, etc." He did use "viper," and I doubt that they were literal vipers, but they could have had a "poisonous" result. But, again, he would have known that as a fact.

He didn't use the words to demean and thereby subjugate; instead, he used them as factual descriptives. But while he might know when someone was a thief, a pastor might have no idea. Jesus could say it, but a pastor couldn't.

What do you think?


21 posted on 10/05/2002 9:59:49 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins; restornu
Did He ever call anyone a "weenie spirit" or a "drity old devil"?

I think those may be terms of endearment in some circumstances, right rest?
22 posted on 10/05/2002 10:09:00 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej; restornu
Did He ever call anyone a "weenie spirit" or a "drity old devil"?

Precisely what I'm talking about Steve.

Thanks for the example.

23 posted on 10/05/2002 10:13:43 AM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins; drstevej; RnMomof7; CubicleGuy; Grig; Utah Girl; rising tide; White Mountain; JMJ333
Did He ever call anyone a "weenie spirit" or a "drity old devil"?

Precisely what I'm talking about Steve.

Thanks for the example.

***

It is so kind of Steve to Share!

How many of us remember Steves time here on FR, as being a kind, sweet, thoughtful Calvinst, who would not engage in provoking or bashing anothers faith?

Many blessings are in store for you, Steve!

24 posted on 10/05/2002 10:54:30 AM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu
Think Joseph Smith will let me into the Celestial Kingdom?
25 posted on 10/05/2002 11:01:13 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: restornu
It's not personal. Read all of my and steve's posts on this thread about Jesus' use of language. That was the point.

Z
26 posted on 10/05/2002 11:04:45 AM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7
Very interesting article. Thanks for posting.

Give me some of that old time religion.

Those who say that Christianity never changes, would do well to compare the "hellfire and brimstone" sermons of the past centuries to the watered-down, anything-goes stuff that passes for religion in some of the churches of the 21st.

27 posted on 10/05/2002 11:21:26 AM PDT by wai-ming
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To: drstevej
Think Joseph Smith will let me into the Celestial Kingdom?

Well, one thing is sure: you certainly would not admit him if the tables were turned.

I think Christ will make the final decision, based on how each of you has demonstrated your faith in Him.

28 posted on 10/05/2002 11:49:29 AM PDT by wai-ming
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To: RnMomof7
Thanks for the heads up, Mom .
I think that the whole society has gotten too PC, except when it comes to knocking Christians,and more so, Catholics .
But, that goes with the territory . We were promised persecution .
I think the Preachers need to go back to the "hard preaching" , but some groups don't want to look "rigid" or "homophobic", or whatever .
29 posted on 10/05/2002 12:20:12 PM PDT by dadwags
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To: xzins
I'm tossing this out unchecked but I believe that Jesus' and any of the accounts of others in the NT using harsh words were always directed at those who were contemplating murder, planning murder, or engaged in theft.

Check out the exchange that Jesus has with the Syrophoenician woman in Mark 7:24-30. It is the only example I can find where Jesus is using harsh words to a common person.

I would argue that, other than the above mentioned, most of Jesus' harsh words were directed at those in power, like the Pharisees, which, to be fair to you, is pretty much the same as directing His words only at those who were contemplating murder or engaged in theft.

30 posted on 10/05/2002 12:58:02 PM PDT by ponyespresso
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To: wai-ming
***I think Christ will make the final decision***

Precisely my point.
31 posted on 10/05/2002 12:58:17 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: ponyespresso; drstevej
DrJ and I discussed this in further posts on this thread. Read through them and see what you think.

The Syrophoenician woman does seem to qualify as use of "harsh words" and perhaps "use of abusive words." I've heard some argue that dogs should be translated "puppies," and I agree that that softens the exchange considerably. "Don't give children's food to puppies."
32 posted on 10/05/2002 1:02:51 PM PDT by xzins
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To: PFKEY
Never a sermon on sin just have a relationship and feel good

No one sins anymore..that is old fashioned and might make them "feel bad" about themselves..today people make "mistakes" See how much better that feels? Forget that it was YOUR choice and you did it "intentionally" it was a mistake

33 posted on 10/05/2002 1:08:17 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: kiltmaker
I indeed am a Calvinist and there is one thing I know...without repetance there is no forgivness of sins..

Repent and believe

And you know what ? I want to be pleasing to my God..so I want to be called to account for my sin so I can repent and turn from it

BTW The best hells fire preachers were always Calvinists..they know the holiness of God and the total depravity of man...

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

34 posted on 10/05/2002 1:13:43 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
Luke 7:34
35 posted on 10/05/2002 1:19:42 PM PDT by maestro
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To: maestro
what they called Jesus vs what Jesus called them.

they made it up. he told the truth.

thanks.
36 posted on 10/05/2002 1:22:14 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
2. The definition of Abuse.

....a. Webster definition: language that condemns or vilifies unjustly, intemperately, and angrily ; physical maltreatment

Unjustly is the key word there..certainly Jesus was as harsh in His judgements as he was loving and tender with the broken
So the question is what is "just" , what is "unjust" was it "just and fair when Jesus turned the rich young ruler away? Or when he called religious leaders vipers? certainly the deceived did not think it was "fair"


....b. Definition in Christian Counseling: victimization and/or manipulation of others through verbal, emotional, sexual, or physical attacks on the person or the person's essential identity.

Take your pyscobabble other places ok?
Jesus never analized people He addressed their sin and deception...and I happen to think that might just still help more than the "I know what you are feeling " junk


....c. Medical Definition: 1. Improper treatment or use; 2. Physical ill treatment; injury. 3. Vituperative words; coarse, insulting speech; abusive language; virulent condemnation; reviling. 4. Violation; rape; as, abuse of a female child. 5. Abuse, Invective. Abuse is generally prompted by anger, and vented in harsh and unseemly words. It is more personal and coarse than invective. Abuse generally takes place in private quarrels; invective in writing or public discussions.

Well you do need to address the rape issue with your priest (and minister )friends that might be guilty of a crime
At least God could use you there...
As for the written communication you need to read some of the epistles.. 
  1Cr 3:3   For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
No word mincing there



The relevant questions:

1. Was it possible for Jesus to abuse?

By defination God could not be abusive

 
  Mat 23:13   But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
  
  Mat 23:14   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
  
  Mat 23:15   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
  
  Mat 23:16   Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
  
  Mat 23:17   [Ye] fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
  
  Mat 23:18   And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
  
  Mat 23:19   [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
  
  Mat 23:20   Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
  
  Mat 23:21   And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
  
  Mat 23:22   And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
  
  Mat 23:23   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
  
  Mat 23:24   [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
  
  Mat 23:25   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
  
  Mat 23:26   [Thou] blind Pharisee, cleanse first that [which is] within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
  
  Mat 23:27   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
  
  Mat 23:28   Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
  
  Mat 23:29   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
  
  Mat 23:30   And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
  
  Mat 23:31   Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
  
  Mat 23:32   Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
  
  Mat 23:33   [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
  
  Mat 23:34   Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute [them] from city to city:
  
  Mat 23:35   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.



2. Is it possible for human pastors/preachers/priests and other religious persons to abuse?

It is possible in two ways..one is not to offer an opportunity to someone to reconcile to God.. to condemn the sin but offer no remedy

And the greatest abuse is to ignore or minimize the sin of one of their sheep ..to refuse to go and bring it home



3. If possible for religious humans, how is it (a) recognized, (b) opposed, (c) treated?

God will see to it
Jer 23:2   Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.


4. How does one heal the victims of religious physical, sexual, emotional, and verbal abuse?

"one" doesn't..God does

37 posted on 10/05/2002 1:35:15 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: IGNATIUS
I think the end of every hells fire sermon should be a declaration offering the forgivness of God to the penetient...the point should be repetance and reconcilation
38 posted on 10/05/2002 1:37:16 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: ponyespresso
When you talk about people being “harsh” here on FR, aren’t you really talking about people being rude, dismissive and condescending?

That is an issue..one I can be called on the carpet for ..alot...I But that was not what I was thinking about as I wrote that

There is one manner of being "harsh", which means speaking truth and holyness against the tide of our current culture immersed in lies and evil. This is the harshness of Scripture. It is quite another to manner of being "harsh" as merely being caustic, nasty and dishonorable. This, usually, is the harshness of FR.

Sometimes truth ..even spoken in love can sound harsh to ears that do not want to hear it..(I know that is true for me). But even if it SOUNDS harsh..we are still called to do it.....Sometimes there are no soft words to say difficult things, and sometimes failing to be "hard" is failing to speak a hard truth.

39 posted on 10/05/2002 1:43:42 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Beckey are we called to respect a false doctrine? (I am not talking a doctrinal distinctive here) ..I am talking a false doctrine..
40 posted on 10/05/2002 1:45:29 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins

I'm tossing this out unchecked but I believe that Jesus' and any of the accounts of others in the NT using harsh words were always directed at those who were contemplating murder, planning murder, or engaged in theft.


Yea do check that out...cause I think his harsh words were for false doctrines and traditions
41 posted on 10/05/2002 1:46:46 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
See #32
42 posted on 10/05/2002 1:48:33 PM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7
BTW The best hells fire preachers were always Calvinists..they know the holiness of God and the total depravity of man..

Pr.8:13, 11:2, 13:10, 14:3, 16:18.

Becky

43 posted on 10/05/2002 1:53:24 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Spiritual pride and the need to be loved are a problem Becky. They are opposite sides of the same coin ..they block truth.

Sometimes if someone has their belief system threatened they consider that "abusive" . They would rather run from the discussion than take a hard look at it.
I am sure that the religious leaders in the days of Jesus thought the apostles were abusive..not respectful. But they had a Hard truth...one that was left to us as a gift...
44 posted on 10/05/2002 1:54:06 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: wai-ming
wai you are growing up spiritually before our eyes...Keep your ears and heart open!
45 posted on 10/05/2002 1:56:45 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
I once heard the parable of the sower and the seed taught as a parent teaching table manners...there is so much error out there passing for the gospel..I left that church soon after that
46 posted on 10/05/2002 1:59:32 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Psa 101:3   I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; [it] shall not cleave to me.

Psa 119:104   Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

Amo 5:15   Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.

2Ti 2:19   Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


Defending error in the name of love is to condemn the lost to hell...that is not love it is hate
47 posted on 10/05/2002 2:03:34 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Thanks for the encouragement.

I still have much to learn.

48 posted on 10/05/2002 2:09:21 PM PDT by wai-ming
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To: RnMomof7
Did I say anywhere that error should be defended?

Becky

49 posted on 10/05/2002 2:24:19 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: RnMomof7
I think the end of every hells fire sermon should be a declaration offering the forgivness of God to the penetient...the point should be repetance and reconcilation

eee gads - sounds like an altar call LOL

50 posted on 10/05/2002 4:02:10 PM PDT by Revelation 911
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