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Influential Priest-Canonist is Abuser
Adoremus Bulletin ^ | September, 2002 | Helen Hull Hitchcock

Posted on 10/14/2002 9:07:17 AM PDT by Maximilian

Online Edition - Vol. VIII, No. 6: September 2002

 

Influential Priest-Canonist
is Abuser of Member of Bishops Review Board

by Helen Hull Hitchcock

One of the most troubling stories from victims of clerical sex-abuse that the US bishops heard at their June meeting in Dallas was that of Michael Bland, a former priest in the Friar Servants of Mary, known as the Servites.

Bland told the bishops that in 1994, almost seven years after his ordination, he revealed to superiors that he had been sexually abused as a teenager by an older member of the same order, and that he had been called to Rome to discuss the case. The order's authorities told him to reconcile with his abuser. When he refused, the authorities turned against him; whereupon he left the order and the priesthood.

"The priesthood lost me, but kept the perpetrator", Bland told the bishops, noting that the abuser, whom he did not name, had recently been promoted to full professor and vice-dean at a major Catholic university.

After his Dallas testimony, Bland, a psychologist who is now clinical-pastoral coordinator for victim assistance ministry for the Archdiocese of Chicago, was appointed a member of the bishops' national review board on clerical sexual abuse.

On August 6, the unnamed abuser was identified. The Washington Post revealed that John Huels, a Servite priest, influential liturgical canonist, professor of canon law and vice-dean of Saint Paul University in Ottawa, was Bland's abuser.

Alan Cooperman of the Washington Post reported, "Yesterday, in a brief statement that made no mention of Bland, Saint Paul University in Ottawa announced that the Reverend John M. Huels has temporarily left his posts as a professor and vice-dean of canon law".

The Post said that Huels told the university rector, the Reverend Dale M. Schlitt, that he would be "on medical leave for the treatment of severe depression". ("Justice Delayed Brings Vindication, Not Peace", www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52567-2002Aug6.html)

Catholic News Service reported that Ottawa Archbishop Marcel Gervais, who is also chancellor of Saint Paul University, issued a statement August 5, stating that Huels has "announced his intention to leave the Servite order and seek laicization". Archbishop Gervais said, "It is my hope that his voluntary actions today will bring peace to all involved".

Bland had told authorities of his abuse by Huels in 1994 when Huels, a professor of canon law at Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, was made provincial of the Chicago province of the Servite order. Huels stepped down as provincial, but retained his CTU faculty position. Two years later he was hired to teach at Saint Paul's.

Archbishop Gervais told CNS that when Father Huels was hired six years ago as vice-dean of the canon law department the archbishop had not been informed of "any inappropriate behavior in his [Father Huels's] past". The CNS story said that Huels has now admitted his guilt to the archbishop, who said that in June this year "I was made aware of a situation" involving Huels.

However, according to the Washington Post, Bland wrote to the dean of canon law in March, "expressing my concern and wonderment why my perpetrator was teaching at Saint Paul University", and questioning Huels's promotion to vice-dean.

Bland told the Post that the week before the announcement of Huels's "temporary" medical leave, Bland had received two phone calls from Archbishop Gervais, who invited Bland to fly to Canada to discuss the matter, though the archbishop explained that he was not bound by the US bishops' policies. Bland said he told the archbishop that he saw no point in meeting until action was taken against Huels.

More abusers at Saint Paul's
Huels's case is not the first instance of a sexually abusive priest being hired at Saint Paul's, Canadian LifeSite News reported on August 12 ("Action on Sexually Abusive Priests Comes Only After Media Exposure - Ottawa Catholic University Attracts Sexual Abusing Professors", August 12, 2002, http://www.lifesite.net).

A known repeat pederast, Father Barry Glendinning, who had abused children in the 1970s and had been sent for "counseling", was hired by Saint Paul's in the late 1980s, and despite the fact that his abusive past was being reported in the media at the time. Glendinning was not only hired to teach at Saint Paul's, but soon became chairman of the Archdiocese of Toronto's Liturgy Commission. In 1999, some of Glendinning's victims launched civil suits against him. A report by an Ottawa Catholic researcher detailing the abuse was published in January 2000, shortly after which Glendinning withdrew from his post at Saint Paul's.

In May, the Toronto Sun reported that Saint Paul University had scheduled Father George C. Berthold, 67, to teach a course during a summer program. The Sun reported that Berthold decided to drop out after his past was exposed by the Boston Globe. The Globe reported that in November 1995 Berthold was fired from his position as dean of Saint John's Seminary in Brighton, Massachusetts, for making improper advances toward a 19-year-old freshman seminarian. (Cardinal Law is under fire in part because he recommended Berthold despite his sexual abuse of the seminarian.)

On April 3, 2002, Father Michael Guimon, OSM, provincial of the Servites in Chicago, had written a letter concerning a different priestly abuser, stating, "In 1995, the Province formalized its position on this issue by establishing and promulgating formal policies and procedures on sexual misconduct with minors".

Huels undeterred...
After his ouster as Chicago provincial of the Servite order in 1994, Huels spent time in South Africa before taking the appointment at Saint Paul University. Yet the renowned canonist remained an active supporter of homosexual "rights" -- and still used his title. On May 16, 1999, "Equality Illinois" published a list of activists who supported a Gay Rights Bill who had "signed their names stating their belief in justice and equal human rights for all people, regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity".

His name appears on this list as "Father John Huels, OSM, Prior Provincial, Servite Friars".

(The Gay Rights list is still accessible on the web site of "Equality Illinois" - http://www.ifhr.org/news/other/990516.htm#individuals.)

Power undiminished...
John Huels has been greatly influential in shaping the opinions of liturgists on a wide range of issues -- altar girls, posture and gestures of the people during Mass, so-called "inclusive" language in liturgical translations, placement of tabernacles in churches, roles of extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, and even the kind of bread to be used for Mass.

He has published several books and numerous articles in prominent liturgical publications, has lectured throughout the United States at workshops and symposia, and has been on the faculty of liturgical institutes. He is currently listed on the Notre Dame Masters of Arts in theology summer-school faculty. Before going to Saint Paul University in 1996, where he taught seminarians, Huels remained on the faculty at Chicago's Catholic Theological Union where he had taught since 1982.

Huels received his degree in canon law from Catholic University of America. His dissertation director and mentor was Monsignor Frederick McManus, emeritus professor of canon law at CUA.

Monsignor McManus exerted profound and pervasive influence over nearly every aspect of the liturgy after the Second Vatican Council -- from church architecture to music and rubrics and translation.

Huels, like his mentor, believes that the interpretation of liturgical law should determine liturgical practices, and he advocates "legislation by interpretation" of the Church's liturgical rules.

A key principle is that if he finds a particular law unpersuasive, the canonist's objective is to find justifications for interpreting the law in such a way as to legitimize a change in practice, which may conflict with the actual law. This is the "make a path by walking on it" principle of changing or reversing laws one finds objectionable.

If confronted with an unwanted law, Huels repeatedly advises, create a new "custom":

"[A] standard principle in the science of canon law today is that church laws must be interpreted in light of the teachings of Vatican II. For the interpretation of liturgical law, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy has paramount importance. A major emphasis of the constitution is that the liturgical reforms are to encourage and enhance the full, conscious and active participation of the people in all the liturgical rites" (in "Standing During the Eucharistic Prayer", More Disputed Questions in the Liturgy, 1996. Chicago: Liturgy Training Publications, p 22f).

"Any interpretation of a liturgical law that ignores the theology behind the law is not a good interpretation. It is not faithful to the law's true meaning and spirit.", he writes in "Liturgy, Inclusive Language, and Canon Law", an essay in Living No Longer for Ourselves -- Liturgy and Justice in the Nineties (ed. Kathleen Hughes, RSCJ and Mark R. Francis, CSV, 1991. Liturgical Press, pp 138-152) .

But then, "The exact and literal fulfillment of the rubrics and other laws ought not to be the only consideration of the liturgical minister, but rather, how the law can be understood and enfleshed in ways that enhance the worship experience of the assembly. This is the purpose of liturgical law; this is its theological foundation....

"Fidelity to the spirit of the law and the interpretation of the letter of the law in light of its spirit is the 'new way of thinking' about canon law that Pope Paul VI challenged the Church to assume" (Ibid. p 149; emphasis added).

A few quotations of Huels's opinions and reasoning may help illustrate his approach to "interpreting" the law to achieve a desired change.

On sexism and foot-washing
"A literal application of a law that is perceived to be sexist is likely to be opposed or ignored, even if the law's observance is demanded by the bishop. Moreover, the equality of all the baptized is a principle enshrined in the fundamental, constitutional law of the church (canon 208). This principle is based on the divine law, to which merely ecclesiastical (human) law must defer. When a human law is perceived within a society as violating the principle of the equality of the sexes, it is not a good law in that context; it no longer is in the service of the church there. It is then necessary to correct the law in that local church by an appropriate remedy, such as dispensation or the development of a contrary custom (canons 85, 24)".

("Washing Women's Feet" More Disputed Questions in the Liturgy, p 27.)

On improvising use of feminist ("inclusive") language
What does it mean to say that no one on his own initiative may "add, remove, or change anything" in the liturgical books?

In "Liturgy, Inclusive Language, and Canon Law", Huels argues that "minor adaptations in the texts ... to make them more inclusive are by no means against the intent and spirit of canon 846, §1. On the contrary, because the purpose of the law is to promote the good of the community, the use of inclusive language best upholds the spirit of the law" (p 150 - emphasis added).

Canon law, says Huels, "obliges all the faithful to promote social justice [Canon 222, §2], and several other canons in the code are devoted to justice issues and the Church's teaching on the dignity and equality of persons".

Therefore, he reasons, "On the basis of these laws and teachings, one could argue that the use of inclusive language in the liturgy is not only desirable, it is obligatory as well. To the extent that inclusive language is a matter of justice affecting the dignity and equality of Christians, all Catholics are bound to promote its use, since all are bound to promote social justice" (p 141 - emphasis added).

"In the dialectical context of the council", Huels writes, the reason for the restrictive statement against unauthorized liturgical changes "doubtless ... was to reassure the conservative minority who did not want to change anything and who feared abuses.... The [restriction] thereby helped to bring about the consensus that ultimately resulted in the nearly unanimous favorable vote on the constitution as a whole".

But this is not needed today, Huels says, because "the most vociferous opponents of the liturgical reforms have now been discredited and their leaders [Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, et al] excommunicated" (pp 147-148).

"In other words", he explains, "the exact and literal fulfillment of the rubrics and other laws ought not to be the only consideration of the liturgical minister but, rather, how the law can be understood and enfleshed in ways that enhance the worship experience of the assembly" (p 149).

"Canon Law states that no one on personal initiative may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgical books when celebrating the sacraments. This may, at first sight, appear to prohibit individuals from using inclusive language when the official texts do not. However, when the historical and theological contexts of the canon are uncovered, it becomes clear that the spirit of the law, if not its letter, actually favors the use of inclusive language" (p 151).

On the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani
At a workshop to explain the new Missal and the Institutio Generalis, or rules for celebration of Mass, sponsored by the diocese of Owensboro, Kentucky, last August, Huels suggested that it doesn't really apply to the US Church:

"The Roman Missal is primarily written with the Church of Rome and Mass at Saint Peter's in mind.... In Rome, especially at Saint Peter's, the norm is that there are a large number of priests and deacons to celebrate each [Mass] and therefore fewer lay liturgical ministers are present. In comparison to Rome for most Catholic communities in the United States the norm is only one priest and a large number of lay ministers. With this in mind it is easy to see why the Instruction calls for the priest and or deacon to perform several functions that here in the United States the priest would perform along with various lay ministers".

(Quoted in "Meaning and Implementation of the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal Discussed", West Kentucky Catholic, September 2001.)

On Kneeling vs. Standing
"In English-speaking North America, the posture prescribed by the bishops' conferences during the eucharistic prayer is kneeling from the end of the Sanctus through the Amen. However, in some parishes and in many religious communities and seminaries, the assembly stands throughout the eucharistic prayer. Is this an acceptable variation or an abuse of the law?...

"Because posture is a means of participation, what the optimal posture is for the assembly's active participation during the eucharistic prayer needs to be asked. Ritually, standing is the posture that most befits active participation. That is why the presider and deacon stand throughout the prayer; they are clearly active participants. Kneeling is fitting for personal prayer and is associated with the veneration of the reserved sacrament. However, in the eucharistic prayer is not a time for personal adoration of the reserved sacrament but for participation in a communal action, in the church's great prayer of praise and thanksgiving. This is not to say that there can be no participation by the people when they kneel but suggests rather that the posture of standing better signifies their baptismal dignity and better fosters a sense of their own active role in worship; they are not just passive spectators of an action going on at the altar.

"Enough has been said to conclude that standing is no abuse of the law; in fact, it serves better the value of active participation than does kneeling. Although the US bishops did not make the 'ideal' decision in 1969 on posture during the eucharistic prayer, they voted for what they perceived was realistically the best solution at the time. In doing so, they believed that it was desirable to avoid burdening the people with too many liturgical reforms all at once. Their reason is one that should always be considered in adapting the liturgy. The Christian people should not have liturgical changes suddenly and arbitrarily foisted upon them without catechesis at the whim of the pastor or director of liturgy. For example, to force the assembly to stand by removing all the kneelers in church, as has occurred in more than one parish, meets resistance and hostility, not with understanding and acceptance. The latter can only be achieved by thorough catechesis"...

("Standing During the Eucharistic Prayer", More Disputed Questions in the Liturgy, p 23)

On the Gesture of Reverence
The requirement (in IGMR §160) that the conference establish gestures of reverence before people receive Communion need not be enforced, according to Huels:

"Until now, the law recommended a sign of reverence but did not explicitly give the conference of bishops the authority to establish it. What is new in IGMR §160 is the requirement that the conference of bishops establish the appropriate gesture of reverence that is to be recommended to the faithful who communicate standing.

"This action need not be taken immediately. Indeed, the most acceptable reverence to be recommended will probably emerge only after wide consultation....

"In an informal Internet survey that I took among diocesan worship officers and liturgists in the English-speaking world there was general agreement that crossing and holding both hands reverently when receiving in the hand, and folding them when receiving on the tongue, are appropriate signs of reverence. There was unanimity among liturgists in their opposition to genuflection. Not only does it disrupt the communion procession and interrupt the flow of distribution, it presents physical challenges to the elderly and persons with certain disabilities. It is also against the universal law" (original emphasis).

Apparently, for those who genuflect before receiving Communion, a different rule applies, and this "disruptive practice" should be stopped at once:

"They have not been invited to do this but allegedly are following the advice of example given over a television network. Some pastors are already reporting difficulties.... Some official intervention appears to be necessary lest this disruptive practice spread more widely".

("The Revised Institutio Generalis of the Roman Missal and the Conference of Bishops", FDLC Newsletter, December 2000-January 2001, p 3 - original emphasis.)

Lasting Consequences - and two sets of rules
Although Huels has now retired in disgrace, his legacy will likely continue to affect every Catholic worshipper in the English-speaking world for many years.

Given the fact that Huels has violated the moral law for years, it is perhaps not surprising that much of his career has been devoted to rationalizing violations of Church law for the purpose of desacralizing the liturgy. This has been a preoccupation of other liturgists whose sexual misconduct has lately been revealed.

The belief that the "spirit" of the law may be interpreted and "enfleshed" so broadly that the actual law becomes meaningless has become a rigid orthodoxy for some professional liturgists.

And there are two sets of rules: permissive for those who want to overturn traditional norms; severe for those who maintain them.

We have seen the counterpart of this in secular law, where the most essential human right was obliterated by an ominous "penumbra" in the 1973 Supreme Court decision on abortion, while the same "penumbra" protects and defends the rights of libertines.

The history of this era has dramatically shown that an "interpretation" by a few has lasting consequences for the many.


Copyright © 2002 Adoremus: Society for the Renewal of the Sacred Liturgy. All rights reserved.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: abuse; catholiclist; liturgy
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To: american colleen
Okay Colleen,what do you think about that motto?It miffs me,it is an ancient prayer but somehow I have always been suspicious of it. Probably because when I was young we never talked about the Apocalypse (Revelations).In fact,the next time I thought I'd be asking Lord Jesus to come would be on my death bed and I'd be asking Him to come and greet me at the gates of heaven,hoping,of course,that I'd be going to there.

I read his homily on his 50th anniversary.I can't stand it when we talk about the church of Patterson and the church of Cleveland,etc.,it seems so divided and factionalized.And then we he repeats in all the many languages of his diverse group his motto,I am reminded again of how the New Order vernacularized mass splits rather than makes whole the Body of Christ.

And that nutso social engineering plug. It offends me to hear priests and bishops act like Catholics didn't know what justice was until VatII.There is no question that my grandmother and,mother and father gave much more of themselves to the world than catholics do now.And,so much of this "social justice" work is not done by volunteers but instead by paid church staff.Pre Vat Catholics(many of them at least)believed that,nourished by the Body and Blood of Christ,they were sent in to the world to accomplish His mission.Someone once told me that "Ite,missa sunt" meant "Go,you are sent",now that's powerful,that's treating "the children of God" like adults.

I have been watching this bishop for a whle and I probably would not be so critical except for the fact that I know he has had scandal after scandal after scandal. So all tis nicely,nice talk,to me,means nothing,nada,in Spanish.

41 posted on 10/14/2002 1:27:58 PM PDT by saradippity
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To: Catholicguy
You think these liturgists are inspired by the highest motives of faith, do you? You think they are men of high integrity who just happen to like boinking boys and that this has no bearing on their influence in the Church? You think they are in a position to tell the rest of us that Catholic tradition got it all wrong and they have finally got it right when it comes to authentic doctrine and practice? I don't think so.
42 posted on 10/14/2002 1:33:35 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Maximilian
Thank you, Maximilian for posting such an important article. Bookmarked for permanent reference.

Fr. Huels has done to the liturgy what Fr. "Dick" Vosko has done to our beautiful churches -

he has WRECKOVATED it.

They're all beginning to surface, one by one. The connections should be obvious as the links are drawn. A closer look at the bishops who readily implemented these changes should warrant more scrutiny as well, for possible collusion.

The history of this era has dramatically shown that an "interpretation" by a few has lasting consequences for the many.

These can be reversed but only with the removal of those bishops, like Hubbard and Clark, who instituted these reforms many years ago.

43 posted on 10/14/2002 1:43:24 PM PDT by NYer
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To: ultima ratio
<> I was referencing the Ecumenical Council and the Holy Spirit. I am not surprised you missed that obvious point.<>
44 posted on 10/14/2002 1:47:07 PM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: ultima ratio
You can't resist the potshots. If by the "real errors of schismatic traditionalists"

You are such a knee jerk reactionary.

I was referring to the real errors of the schismatics (denial of the validity of the Novus Ordo, sedevacantism), as opposed to what many "neoconservatives" here and elsewhere think are errors but are simply erroneous criticisms of valid traditionalism.

You folks might have some allies in your battles if you didn't turn them all off by your repulsive behavior and knee jerk attacks. You acribe motives unjustly and jump to incorrect conclusions ---such as this--- because of your obsession with finding monsters where they simply do not exist, or desire to turn good decent orthodox Catholics into the monsters of your nightmares.

45 posted on 10/14/2002 1:48:29 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: Catholicguy
"An Ecumenical Council is not susceptible to that sort of "dialetical" approach; unless you think the Holy Spirit coaxed conmmunism in the Council.."

CG I don't want to start up that whole debate on the infallibility of Vat II again, but you must agree that the "dialectical" approach has been exploited mercilessly during the Post-Conciliar period, with respect to the interpretation (or misinterpretation) of the Council's documents.

I have often heard liberals boasting about the divisions among conservative and traditional Catholics, as being one of the main reasons for their success. John Allen of the NCR is a recent case that comes to mind.

Lets face it - if you were the devil and you wanted to destroy the Church, where would you attack?

-the priesthood?
-the Mass?
-inflaming conflict between those who love the Mass (of whatever rite)?

Gnostics, Protestants, Modernists - they have always sought to destroy the Mass first - and the priesthood along with it. It is a certain sign of who they truly serve and they take great delight when the believers fight amongst one another!
46 posted on 10/14/2002 1:49:27 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: saradippity
Your post is of the "mistakes were made" variety. Cardinal Law did not follow bad advice. He knew what he was doing. He had plenty of evidence his coverups were harming kids. He had twenty years to figure out that when he transferred a pedophile it was guaranteed that children would be abused, even raped. He even praised Shanley in a letter so he could pawn him off one more time to an unsuspecting diocese. Yet he had absolute proof--a thousand page dossier on the man--that this priest had raped a six year old and had abused hudreds of other kids, that he was an active supporter of NAMBLA. And Law had around 82 such priests that he protected for over twenty years. I'm still trying to figure out what it takes for a cardinal to have his resignation accepted by Rome after such a display of absolute unmitigated corruption. Apparently the destruction of thousands of kids' souls is not enough to get anybody fired. Certainly not for you. You're still making phony excuses for the Cardinal.
47 posted on 10/14/2002 1:51:20 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: NYer
Hubbard and Clark were two more of Jean Jadot's recommends. Is there any way you can find what their mottoes were?I think when they become bishop they choose a motto.I would appreciate it if you could find out.You are in one of their dioceses aren't you?Thanks.
48 posted on 10/14/2002 1:54:53 PM PDT by saradippity
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To: yendu bwam
Absolutely right. I know a man, an ex-Jesuit, who does not believe in the divinity of Christ. He is teaching Christology in a Catholic H.S. He told me he gives both sides of the question and let's the kids decide for themselves who's right. Yeah, sure.
49 posted on 10/14/2002 2:00:40 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
Do you live in a diocese where the bishop was recommended by Jean Jadot?That would have been between 1972 and 1980.If you do could you find out the motto he chose when he was enthroned,or whatever it's called.Thanks.
50 posted on 10/14/2002 2:02:13 PM PDT by saradippity
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To: Polycarp
Nice to see you accepting the followers of Lefebvre. Are you now prepared to concede he was right?
51 posted on 10/14/2002 2:06:24 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: saradippity
Ultima's bishop is Richard Williamson of the SSPX. He is not affiliated with a Roman Catholic Diocese.

Williamson's motto is "I admire the Unabomber."

52 posted on 10/14/2002 2:07:24 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: ultima ratio
Are you now prepared to concede he was right?

In some things? Certainly. Heck, I'd even grant you that in most things he was generally on the right track.

But in ordaining 4 bishops instead of the 1 he was permitted, he gravely erred. End of story. No excuses, including amorphous appeals the emergency necessities. Rome has spoken.

When the Church brings the SSPX back in, I'll gladly attend their liturgies. And even before they are brought back in, I accept the laity in the SSPX movement to be brethren in the RCC, who if I am correct may receive the sacraments in any Indult or Novus Ordo mass as any other Catholic.

But those leading the SSPX and keeping it in schism are schizmatic.

I agree that there should be a general indult, that many Novus Ordo masses are illicit, that some are invalid, that the Novus Ordo liturgy does not do much in the way of catechizing the awesome reality of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Real Presence, that the ICEL and other translations of the Latin of the Novus Ordo are atrociuos at best, that the homopederast crisis seems to be the real fruit of the post-conciliar "spirit of V II" crowd...

we agree on so many things.

But on some things I will not and cannot agree, and on those things obviously I will say so.

53 posted on 10/14/2002 2:19:00 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: ultima ratio; Maximilian
by your repulsive behavior and knee jerk attacks.

By the way, just to reiterate...I'm not exactly "taking sides" in putting forward this criticism. I think it can be applied equally to the schismatics as well as the neoconservatives that fight them.

I think Steve Hand's polemics are just as repulsive and knee jerk. I think the attacks on Sungenis have been just as repulsive.

The "We Resist You To the Face" folks can handle it...they dish it out just as much as they are the subject of it.

The liberals ---heck, the DEVIL--- are thrilled by this bloodletting between "traditionalists" and conservatives, and the problem is the blurring of distinctions between "traditionalists" and "integrists" on the one hand, and "conservatives" and "neoconservatives" on the other.

Integrists (what a useless word, I admit!) as well as neoconservatives are equally guilty of repulsive behavior and knee jerk attacks.

I am too.

But these behaviors are counterproductive no matter which camp engages in them.

54 posted on 10/14/2002 2:36:09 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: Polycarp
The liberals ---heck, the DEVIL--- are thrilled by this bloodletting between "traditionalists" and conservatives, and the problem is the blurring of distinctions between "traditionalists" and "integrists" on the one hand, and "conservatives" and "neoconservatives" on the other.

Polycarp, I think you stated your position very well in this post and the previous post sans name-calling. However, I don't agree with the general premise. It appears to me that we are going through an essential period of clarifying facts, ideas and opinions. New Information is coming to light every day. Resources that were previously unavailable are now within our reach thanks to the internet.

So it is inevitable that "traditionalist" and "conservatives" have to hash out these issues. There has to be some "bloodletting" for the truth to emerge.

Compare the situation to the political realm. Voices of moderation are always telling the Republican party to stop their infighting. In practice that always means handing over the party to the so-called moderates. Pro-lifers must continue to fight unremittingly for their position. Better that some Republicans should lose due to infighting, rather than the Whitmans and the Giulianis should be allowed to take over the party.

Right now there is no consensus in the Church, and there CAN'T be a consensus considering Her current state. There is too much disputed, too many crises, too much information unavailable for anyone to have the perfect solution.

I can't even say where I stand from day to day. Too often I'm influenced by the last person I read. But even as I try to take principled stands and rely on the rock of faith and tradition, I find that there are irreconcilable conflicts.

We are caught in a tragic situation where conflicting duties impel us in opposite directions, like Antigone who was caught between conflicting laws. There was no happy solution for her, and there may be no way out for us either. But in the meantime, it's not realistic to think that we can all just get along, anymore than it was possible for Antigone and her brothers.

55 posted on 10/14/2002 2:50:38 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Polycarp
I really do not know.

FWIW, there are some folks who have been dogging Pete ever since he broke with the SSPX many years ago. Pete is a big boy and can more than take care of his detractors in a fair and open argument. (I am not referring to you personally.)

Why don't his detractors on this thread contact him with their concerns and invite him to answer them here on FR?

I guess it is just too easy to beat up on his reputation behind his back.

Sursum Corda

56 posted on 10/14/2002 3:02:11 PM PDT by Sursum Corda
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To: Polycarp
Look at what I wrote. If anybody is knee-jerk, it is you. I said IF you were referring to Lefebre and his followers. IF. You mentioned my nightmarish perspective in another post. You're right, it is nightmarish--but it is accurate. It is a nightmare to believe the traditional beliefs of the Catholic Church have been successfully targeted for decades with no one in the Vatican actively protecting the faithful from such dangers.
57 posted on 10/14/2002 3:13:23 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Coleus
I would like to offer my insight into the Scripture in the Book of Revelation, which follows the one cited by Psalm 118:8.

The Book of Revelation also tells us that "all nations will mourn the Fall of Babylon." I had wondered why there would be mourning, instead of celebration! This year, I found my answer: All nations and banking systems of the world are in bed with the Vatican Bank!

Put "Vatican Bank Scandal" in ANY search engine, and you will learn of a scandal that is about to eclipse the pedophilia scandal in the Catholic Church.

Regarding Psalm 118:8's post: Psalm 118:8 spells it out, CLEARLY by citing Scriptural references in revealing how the Church has duped us for years, by hiding the Word of God from the faithful, which reveals the grave, unspeakable errors of the Catholic Church throughout the ages.

Well, now that the simple truth of the Gospel is revealed, it's time to heed the clear admonition of the Holy Spirit: "Come out of her my people!"

For those of you who have "come out," please know that you have a church-family, the Body of Christ, who is willing to welcome you with open arms, regardless the denomination, which you choose to enter. For those of you who are "still in the boat," may God reveal his beautiful righteousness to you. Once He does, the decision to stay in the Church or leave the Bondage of Rome will be a "no-brainer." The real Body of Christ, washed in His precious blood, is ready to welcome you.

I found this to be an interesting post on the site you linked. It was posted by Gabrielle23.

58 posted on 10/14/2002 4:04:53 PM PDT by Dec31,1999
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To: Polycarp
Let me see if we can take this a step further. Do you agree with Thomas Aquinas and Robert Belarmine, among others, that no one, not even the pope, may command something that would seriously harm the Church? Do you agree with these doctors of the Church that in such a case we have the right, and even the duty, to resist such a command? Would you still argue despite this that JnPaulII--for all his charisma and immense popularity--had the right to command Lefebvre not to consecrate, knowing full well that the Archbishop was old and in ill health and would have no successor to assure the ordination of traditional priests, and knowing full well this would mean the destruction of the traditional Mass? Would you admit that there are limits to what even a pope may command legitimately in such a dire situation? Would you admit the past few decades sheds fresh light on what Lefebvre saw clearly as an attack on the faith itself which he properly and in good conscience rejected?
59 posted on 10/14/2002 4:32:29 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Maximilian
Voices of moderation are always telling the Republican party to stop their infighting.

I agree that a certain degree of debate and discussion are essential in the current crisis. But this nuke 'em till they glow approach is reprehensible and inexcusable.

We can disagree and take polar opposite positions, but do it with charity and humility and patience.

The vitriol and insulting polemics are the result of personal pride and ego and despair replacing charity and humility and hope and faith.

it is pointless to engage in the politics of personal destruction across the battle lines the integrists and neocons have drawn.

Neither side can win using such tactics. And the Church loses.

And when the Church "loses," souls are lost for eternity.

That is why I rarely engage Ultima Ratio and HDMZ on these threads, except for a brief occasional exchange.

60 posted on 10/14/2002 4:37:15 PM PDT by Polycarp
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